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Norseman82
Guest
I guess it all boils down to this: what would I rather answer to God for on judgment day - lying, or failing to protect an innocent life?
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VonDerTann
Guest
Gotta say this to Castello:
Repeating simple platitudes like “no special circumstances turn something evil into something good” are morally unfulfilling in the face of the real world, when people keep coming up with examples of how/when lying clearly is morally justified.
Now, you write,
“If the nazis are there or the bad guy is looking for your child, you can refuse to answer them. Honestly, you think crazed murderers are going to take your word for it that little johnny is not in his bedroom?”
-You are committing a fallacy by mocking the scenario presented. Whether you think the scenario far-fetched or not, the question “is lying ever not a sin?” is valid when presented with a case – even if you think it hypothetical - where lying could save a life, and telling the truth will much more likely result in the death of an innocent. You can dissemble and say, “the nazis won’t believe me,” but the fact remains for discussion purposes - what if they are likely to believe you if you lie & hide the jew?
Now, you also opine that our “scenarios are so far fetched.”
Sure they are far-fetched…if your whole life is comprised of praying, going to church, praying some more, typing on your computer, praying again, going to sleep, getting up, and repeating, while being single, childless, and largely never interacting with other humans.
But they are not at all far fetched if you are engaged in any profession where you encounter unscrupulous people…or are in the military, or police work…or even if you’re just a parent asked, “Is Santa real?” or a husband asked by your wife, “does this dress make me look fat?”
The fact remains that there are tons of valid “scenarios”, a/k/a “LIFE” which are encountered daily, wherein lying is morally allowable or at least morally neutral:
Repeating simple platitudes like “no special circumstances turn something evil into something good” are morally unfulfilling in the face of the real world, when people keep coming up with examples of how/when lying clearly is morally justified.
Now, you write,
“If the nazis are there or the bad guy is looking for your child, you can refuse to answer them. Honestly, you think crazed murderers are going to take your word for it that little johnny is not in his bedroom?”
-You are committing a fallacy by mocking the scenario presented. Whether you think the scenario far-fetched or not, the question “is lying ever not a sin?” is valid when presented with a case – even if you think it hypothetical - where lying could save a life, and telling the truth will much more likely result in the death of an innocent. You can dissemble and say, “the nazis won’t believe me,” but the fact remains for discussion purposes - what if they are likely to believe you if you lie & hide the jew?
Now, you also opine that our “scenarios are so far fetched.”
Sure they are far-fetched…if your whole life is comprised of praying, going to church, praying some more, typing on your computer, praying again, going to sleep, getting up, and repeating, while being single, childless, and largely never interacting with other humans.
But they are not at all far fetched if you are engaged in any profession where you encounter unscrupulous people…or are in the military, or police work…or even if you’re just a parent asked, “Is Santa real?” or a husband asked by your wife, “does this dress make me look fat?”
The fact remains that there are tons of valid “scenarios”, a/k/a “LIFE” which are encountered daily, wherein lying is morally allowable or at least morally neutral:
- Most parents, particularly of teenage daughters, have encountered at least one situation where a person of the opposite sex, with clearly ill intentions, pursues the child. Is it so far fetched that we may not morally lie and say, “sorry, she’s not here?” when a bad boyfriend comes calling?
- Is it so far fetched that undercover cops cannot lie to maintain cover to catch criminals, particularly when civil law expressly allows it?
- Is it so far fetched that spies cannot plant false evidence, lie to foreign powers, etc., particularly when national security is concerned? Did George Patton sin when he shouted across the room to Eisenhower in London in spring 1944, “See you in Calais, Ike!” knowing German spies were likely about, so as to mislead the Nazis as to the expected location of D-Day (as he really did in life)?
- Heck, is it really a sin when I say to a car salesman, “I won’t pay more than $10,000” as a means of lowering the price $12,000 price when I know I’ll go to $11,000?
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Bookcat
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Bookcat
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Leegal
Guest
This reminds me of something. My aunt was being called by a potential suitor but she was not interested in this young man. She asked my grandmother to say she was not home. My grandmother did so but had serious doubts and was extremely devoted so she worried over this. She went to her confessor to confess her lies. Her confessor said, “you did not lie; she was not home for him.” Ill-intentions or not, she was, indeed, not home for this young man.
I forgot that until you brought it up.
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VonDerTann
Guest
You are, of course, correct, Leegal, and yet some would say your grandmother sinned (which is clearly not the case; I’d say it was good judgment).
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Bookcat
Guest
Always distinguish.
Some may think that a legit mental reservation is a lie …just as some may think taking something when one can presume permission is theft.
But such does not make it lying or theft.
Nor would either infer that sometimes lying and theft is not sinful.
This is why it is important to always distinguish in theology.
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Sayanz
Guest
I hope people take notice of this CCC 1753: A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means.
Lying, according to this, is intrinsically disordered.
Lying, according to this, is intrinsically disordered.
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bbentrup
Guest
Just in case someone missed it from the other thread on this topic:
bbentrup:
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Cristiano
Guest
I think that in all fairness and objectivity you should have quoted this too:
The Case Against False Assertions
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Bookcat
Guest
See below
That is a great quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Thanks!1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5R.HTM
Of course an important question is: …“is such and such” a lie.
Or to put it another way…“objectively” (in the object) is it something else…such as discreet language, legit mental reservation etc.
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Norseman82
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He_Man
Guest
Cute. And what does this turning away involve, and where is that documented? I assume you don’t mean they are to attempy to get them to go AWOL?
And also, they don’t require lawful killing in battle to be confessed to a Chaplain in the military. Why is that?
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Castello
Guest
The wording was changed, I posted the links earlier and am not going to dig them up again.
If you want to lie, then, knock yourself out.
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jcupach
Guest
Were in the Bible does it say lying is a sin?
The Commandment says not to give ‘false witness against your neighbor’ which is a specific catagory of lying and does not include all lying.
Saints usually operate on a higher level of morality, which is why they are saints in the first place. I find it difficult to scrutinize them.
Sometimes the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law.
The Commandment says not to give ‘false witness against your neighbor’ which is a specific catagory of lying and does not include all lying.
Saints usually operate on a higher level of morality, which is why they are saints in the first place. I find it difficult to scrutinize them.
Sometimes the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law.
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Castello
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John 8:44 is pretty clear.
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Norseman82
Guest
Did you read the link? This is the CURRENT Vatican website.
So who is wrong, you or the Vatican?
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Bookcat
Guest
Catechism:
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5R.HTM
Of course an important question is: …“is such and such” a lie.
Or to put it another way…“objectively” (in the object) is it something else…such as discreet language, legit mental reservation etc.
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5R.HTM
Of course an important question is: …“is such and such” a lie.
Or to put it another way…“objectively” (in the object) is it something else…such as discreet language, legit mental reservation etc.
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Tietjen
Guest
This will be my last post on this particular thread as we all appear to simply be repeating ourselves and nothing new is being revealed. Thank you to those I both agreed with and those I did not. Take care all and God bless.
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Bookcat
Guest
Yes I see the one there is from “IntraText” and is the first edition… The Catechism has been revised since then according to the Latin Typical edition.
It now reads:
2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
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