Lying to a Spouse

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stanley123:
So you would suffer the horrific fires of hell or of purgatory if you told your wife that her cooking was just fine, when it wasn’t?
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First of all, you can’t really compare hell and purgatory. They are two completely different things.

Second, it would have the same bearing on your “purgatory time” as any other venial sin. “Lying to be nice” doesn’t get its own special venial sin classification.

Like most venial sins, its very tempting to reason them away, or make them completely inconsequential, because sometimes its just a lot easier to commit a venial sin than to try to avoid it.

We should not forget that the Catechism tells us that venial sins, if not dealt with, can lead us down the road to mortal sin.
 
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Madia:
Lying consists of speaking a falsehood with the intention to deceive so I don’t think there’s something such as “lying by ommission.” Maybe you are referring to the sins of craftiness or guile:

newadvent.org/summa/305503.htm
newadvent.org/summa/305504.htm
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By lying by omission what I mean is lying (or deceiving) by intentionally omitting/withholding information that one has a right to know about. A spouse who has been the victim of unfaithfulness and whose marriage vows have been broken has a right to know about the unfaithful act(s). We can lie and thus sin either by commission or omission. In comission we lie by deliberately telling a falsehood in order to deceive. In omission we lie by deliberately holding back information from someone who has a right to know in order to deceive. In the Creed we say, “in my thoughts, and in my words, and what I have done, and what I have failed to do”. The catechism also explains sin by omission. The person who commits adultery and hides it from their spouse is basically living a lie because the spouse probably views their husband/wife as a faithful spouse that has never cheated on them when in fact they are not a spouse that has been 100% faithful.
 
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stanley123:
So you would suffer the horrific fires of hell or of purgatory if you told your wife that her cooking was just fine, when it wasn’t?
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Not hell as the lie does not involve grave matter. It would have an affect on your purgatory time though.

A lie can become mortal if it involves grave matter so if one lies about grave matter it could place them into mortal sin which could cause them to “suffer the horrific fires of hell”.
 
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Prometheum_x:
The worst consequence of developing a habit of falsehood, even in little things, is that you may develop a habit of lying to yourself, and forget how to tell the difference.

If I am ever married – even if begin dating someone – I will make it clear to them, up front, that I never, ever want to lie to them, and that covers clothing, cooking, etc. I will always strive to speak the truth in love. (The in love part is key).

If you don’t like that policy, don’t date me. I probably wouldn’t want to date you, because I’d be sure that you’d probably lie to me about my cooking, clothing. . . and where do you draw the line?

I absolutely detest lying, and am more ashamed of times I have lied than almost any other sin.
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Great post. Everyone should have this attitude. No one should ever lie under any circumstances to the person they are dating or to their spouse if they are married. Lying, even small ones, destroys trust which is very important and required in a marriage. When you can no longer trust the person with whom you are married to the marriage is basically no longer a marriage. Lies have an affect on a spouse because if the other spouse can lie about one thing who knows what else they can lie about. Also, when a person lies they are turning against God’s Will and thus not receiving all the graces necessary to sustain the marriage. Without God’s graces the marriage will surely fail.
 
In omission we lie by deliberately holding back information from someone who has a right to know in order to deceive.
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I don’t mean that you can’t sin by omission, I’m just saying that the actual sin might be called craftiness or guile, not lying. There are other ways to deceive someone than by lying.
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=31918&highlight=adultery

“Non-truths that do not offend justice and are usually used to spare another’s feelings or to indulge fantasy and imagination are not lies.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=44548&highlight=adultery

"If one has confessed adultery in the sacrament of penance and received absolution, is there an obligation to confess to the spouse?"

*"Again, the priest can never, under any circumstances, require of the penitent an action that would reveal the contents of a sacramental confession. He can encourage the penitent to do so, but cannot condition absolution upon it.

As for the penitent, he may feel the need to confess outside of the confessional in order to make amends for his wrongdoing; and such confession may or may not be prudentially sound."*
 
Okay, here’s a hypothetical or whatever you call it situation . . .

You are hiding Jews in your house and Nazis are looking for them. They knock on your door and ask you “have you seen the Jews that ran into this area?”

I would hope you would lie.

Okay, in this situation, the Nazi would not be your spouse, so it really doesn’t answer the original question. But sometimes there are situations in which I think you should lie. Just as I think if a terrorist is flying a plane and you know two other towers have been hit, you should definitely try to kill the terrorists before they kill thousands of others.
 
I believe the defense of life (yourself or another’s) is an allowable exception to the “rules”. To bring it back to the OT, if the husband were a Nazi and the wife were hiding them, she would be justified in lying.
 
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Madia:
I don’t mean that you can’t sin by omission, I’m just saying that the actual sin might be called craftiness or guile, not lying. There are other ways to deceive someone than by lying.
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Sorry, I see what you were trying to say now.
 
rayne89 said:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=31918&highlight=adultery

“Non-truths that do not offend justice and are usually used to spare another’s feelings or to indulge fantasy and imagination are not lies.”
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As Madia pointed out, “lies” may not be the correct term and we’ve drifted off to talking about another type of sin. Hiding from a spouse arguably the worst offense that one can commit against the Sacrament of Marriage is an act of being deceptive and misleading about a matter that a spouse has every right to know about. Its a sin of omission. When two people enter into marriage they agree to both be truthful to one another and to honor their marriage vows in good times and bad times. It doesn’t mean to be truthful only if the other person won’t be hurt. The spouse will probably be very hurt. However, he or she must forgive and the two must work to repair their marriage which could turn out to a long road filled with much pain and suffering. But suffering is redemptive and could be offering up to Christ. It’s through suffering that we grow in faith.

I think an important aspect in this situation is whether or not the spouse has a right to know about adultery and I believe the answer is yes. The catechism and even the marriage vows should be more than enough to convince anyone of this.
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rayne89:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=44548&highlight=adultery

"If one has confessed adultery in the sacrament of penance and received absolution, is there an obligation to confess to the spouse?"

*"Again, the priest can never, under any circumstances, require of the penitent an action that would reveal the contents of a sacramental confession. He can encourage the penitent to do so, but cannot condition absolution upon it.

As for the penitent, he may feel the need to confess outside of the confessional in order to make amends for his wrongdoing; and such confession may or may not be prudentially sound*."
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Yes, the this is correct. A priest can’t require the pentient to do anything that would *“reveal the contents of a sacramental confession”. *However, this does not make it right to deceive your spouse. You can still reveal to your spouse that you were unfaithful without revealing the details of the confession. Also, again, it comes done to whether or not person has the “right” to know. A spouse does have the right to know about adultery and therefore must be told otherwise another sin would be committed. Until the spouse knows about the unfaithfulness you are continuing to be unfaithful to them by deceiving them.
 
So far everyone has been concentrating on whether the answers to questions are lies or not. Some people have hinted at this but no one has come flat out and said it so I will.

*:tsktsk: SOMETIMES IT IS THE QUESTION *
WHICH IS A LIE

A wife who asks about her behind or a husband who asks if he’s still a hunk is being no more honest than the person who gives a white lie for an answer. Such questions are similar to that infamous question, “Have you stopped beating your wife?” The man who has never beaten his wife can only objectively answer, “No, I haven’t stopped beating her.” We all understand that such an answer is literally true but it doesn’t convey THE TRUTH.

If we are going to insist on radical honesty when answering questions we should likewise be radically honest when asking them.
 
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ElizabethAnne:
Also, I have already told my husband (we’ve been married a little over a week)
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Hey Congrats! Have a blessed Marriage. I was told the first year is the hardest, but we are just now finishing our first year and we have loved it. It is just interesting incorporating your “own routine” into a new “our routine,” communication is key and to bring it back on topic so is Honesty *😃 *!
 
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InSearchOfGod:
Okay, here’s a hypothetical or whatever you call it situation . . .
You are hiding Jews in your house and Nazis are looking for them. They knock on your door and ask you “have you seen the Jews that ran into this area?”
I would hope you would lie.
Okay, in this situation, the Nazi would not be your spouse, so it really doesn’t answer the original question. But sometimes there are situations in which I think you should lie. Just as I think if a terrorist is flying a plane and you know two other towers have been hit, you should definitely try to kill the terrorists before they kill thousands of others.
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Here is a question- Another poster brought up telling a lie is effect is not trusting in God to provide the graces necessary. Without having read this statement before I would have immediately jumped to the answer of course, lie for the sake of life, then I think of the comment above and I do not know the answer. Do we trust that God will provide and although someone may die if you tell the truth would God not want you to tell the truth at all times?

How did God feel about Peter denying him three times to save his own life? Peter felt remorse over it because he knew his lie was wrong.

This has opened a can of worms for me. If we allow lies based on conditions then we slide down the same slippery slope that allows moral wrongs.

Would God find it ok for us to lie for a friend/spouse let say to prevent them from being imprisoned or even put to death for a crime?

I think you have to hold the Truth up ultimately and if you are generous, kind and act in a way God would wish while telling the Truth, which is ideal.

I do not believe that because there is evil in this world it justifies lies. I do know that in reality this is much more difficult to carry out, because we are human, imperfect so although God tells us not to fear-we still do, and that is the motivation for lies.

I do feel like this is a great debate, very thought provoking.
 
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Madia:
Did you even take a look at the thread? If you don’t believe me, then please read #1753 and #1754 of the Catechism:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm
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Yes I looked it over and I checked your CCC reference.You may want to consider this one as well.
[2489](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2489.htm’)😉 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283
 
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Pumpkin:
Would God find it ok for us to lie for a friend/spouse let say to prevent them from being imprisoned or even put to death for a crime?
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I was thinking this precise thing. Would the answer be different for these scenarios:

If you housed your nephew in the US because he had robbed the local convenience store and the police were now looking for him?

If you housed your nephew in the same circumstance, except knowing he did not do it?

If your nephew was accused of doing so because he was black and it was 1950 (but you know 100% he could not have done so), and his false imprisonment and death was guaranteed?

If you lived in China and were housing a person who was sought for practicing Catholicism?
 
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Forest-Pine:
I was thinking this precise thing. Would the answer be different for these scenarios:

If you housed your nephew in the US because he had robbed the local convenience store and the police were now looking for him?

If you housed your nephew in the same circumstance, except knowing he did not do it?

If your nephew was accused of doing so because he was black and it was 1950 (but you know 100% he could not have done so), and his false imprisonment and death was guaranteed?

If you lived in China and were housing a person who was sought for practicing Catholicism?
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I know…there are so many different scenarios that could potentially prompt one to lie under the thought that the “end justifies the means” premise. However, that is the relativist mentality that we are so plagued with today. I am not comfortable with that being ok.
 
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rayne89:
Yes I looked it over and I checked your CCC reference.You may want to consider this one as well.
2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283
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There is a difference between “not revealing the truth” and “speaking falsehood.”
 
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