Make a Treaty with Al Qaeda?

[HagiaSophia]

Norwich:

May I respectfully suggest you look at the other posts in this thread, then tell me who is threatening to kill whom?
One of the ten commandments is “Thou shalt not kill”. Now I’ve looked long and hard in the Old Testament and I can’t find the codicile that says “unless” or “in the case of”. If you know where it is please tell me.
p.s. if you quote “an eye for an eye” etc. then you are certainly not a biblical scholar or theologian. That was written with a very different context in mind.

Speaking of not being a biblical scholar nor a theologian- the commandment is more accurately translated as “Thou shalt not murder the innocent”.

What of the Cannanites, the Midianites etc in the bible? Do you think God was wrong? What do you feel about Michael the Archangel and the legions of angels who threw Satan out of heaven? Should God have negotiated do you think?

 

[gilliam]

Norwich:

One of the ten commandments is “Thou shalt not kill”.

No the commandment is “Thou shalt not murder”. “Thou shalt not kill” is a mistranslation from the Hebrew.

 

[gilliam]

Let’s see, these are the guys you want to negotiate with?

Terrorists Unappeased

The Iraqi Islamic Party withdrew from the elections in late December. Today, the terrorists killed one of the party’s senior leaders.
Per Yahoo News:

A member of Iraq’s main Sunni Muslim party was kidnapped and later killed in Mosul, the party said in a statement.

“Yesterday Omar Mahmoud Abdullah, a senior leader in the Iraqi Islamic Party was kidnapped from his pharmacy and hours later was killed,” it said Wednesday.

Another party official said Abdullah’s bullet-riddled body was found seven hours after he was kidnapped dumped in the Al-Wihda neighbourhood on the eastern side of the city. The party, which had recently announced its withdrawal from January’s legislative elections, has also cast doubt over the legitimacy of the whole process. The party has said that it was pulling out from the elections because it believes a six-month delay will allow the security situation to improve and create more public awareness of the process. Many Sunni religious and political figures have called for a delay and some have even decided to boycott the vote altogether.

Those who advocate delay or boycotting the elections must admit that such actions did not spare Omar Mahmoud Abdullah from the terror.

 

[Lance]

Norwich:

I really dispair sometimes at the gung ho attitude that can grip an entire nation. Someone once said that the fastest and most devastating way of destroying your enemy’s is to make them your freinds.

Try looking at the world, South Africa, they started to talk, Northern Ireland, they started to talk, even India and Pakistan, they have started to talk. If you want to defeat Al Qaeda LISTEN to them, not yourself. All the gung ho rhetoric will simply bury the calls that are being made.

Someone else once said Man was born with one mouth and two ears, therefore he should listen twice as much as he talks.

I never heard of Jesus losing it with the under privaliged or oppressed, only those who spoke from authority in the temple to forward their own selfish aims. Time to take stock and figure out whose side your on, Man, or Gods?

Neville Chamberlain tried to talk to Hitler, I should think the English would of all people remember what a disaster that turned into.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Lance:

Neville Chamberlain tried to talk to Hitler, I should think the English would of all people remember what a disaster that turned into.

And remember that Harry Truman said that every promise and agreement that Stalin made he broke and that he lied and lied some more. Terorrists, thugs and killers do not share the same ideals.or values.

 

[FightingFat]

HagiaSophia:

Speaking of not being a biblical scholar nor a theologian- the commandment is more accurately translated as “Thou shalt not murder the innocent”.

And who suffers most from this, or any war? I put to you that it is the innocent who have always suffered the most from such tactics.

I have tremendous admiration for all your loyalty to your country, but I do feel upset that you feel justified in manipulating your faith to justify such a terribly human tragedy as the war in Iraq.

 

[Fitz]

FightingFat:

I have tremendous admiration for all your loyalty to your country, but I do feel upset that you feel justified in manipulating your faith to justify such a terribly human tragedy as the war in Iraq.

I question your loyalty to your country because you are at war too. However I question more you inability to see the suffering the Iraqis had at the hands of their dictatorial government. Perhaps you did not see the public broadcasting of Sadams regime, his chemical warfare against his own people and much more than that- mass graves, etc.

I have not manipulated my faith one bit. I am proud my dad served to bring down Hitler and to free many countries in Europe with the help of many other nations at our side. I am also proud of my daughter who is a pilot in the Navy and currently serves. She has had one deployment to the Persian Gulf and will be going back. The patrol that our Navy is doing is keeping the enemy of the Iraqi people from blowing up their pipeline to the Gulf. They have also participated in many rescue missions of ordinary people- however you will never read about them. Live with your head in the sand, and you won’t understand. It is not so simple as you are making it out to be.

 

[Marie]

Norwich:

As for as my statements they were intended to try and make people think about what they are saying. I have lived in the Arab world for a number of years and I KNOW that the vast majority have as little liking for the actions of a few, as all of us, yet, by banging the drum of retribution, killing, etc. etc. all we are doing is marginalising those who may secretely agree with our hatred of all that Al Qaeda stand for. We place them in the impossible situation of choosing between their religion, and our apparent disregard for life. (their lives, not our own). You say that we should not talk to Al Qaeda because they are murderers and want to kill us all! That is exactly the reason why we SHOULD talk. By talking and being rational we would remove their power base,

Nice dream. St. Francis tried talking. Well, at least they did not kill him, but they did not listen either. I’m just praying along like St Francis…"Let there be Peace on Earth…!

Meantime, I appreciate our Troops and the other Nations doing their best to keep us and others from being blown to bit’s by the mongurals of the world.

 

[Norwich]

Fitz:

It is not so simple as you are making it out to be.

How true, lets ignore who put Saddam Hussein where he was, lets ignore who gave him the weapons to kill his own people, lets ignore where he got his technical expertise from, lets ignore who trained his scientists to produce WMD’s, lets ignore who trained and equiped his army,lets ignore who it was backed him in his war with Iran.

I suggest you look up HOS 8:7

 

[Fitz]

Norwich:

How true, lets ignore who put Saddam Hussein where he was, lets ignore who gave him the weapons to kill his own people, lets ignore where he got his technical expertise from, lets ignore who trained his scientists to produce WMD’s, lets ignore who trained and equiped his army,lets ignore who it was backed him in his war with Iran.

I suggest you look up HOS 8:7

I don’t ignore that we try to deal with rulers that don’t measure up. We haven’t armed Saddam in a long time, but France, Germany, and Russia had dealings more recently when they knew he was not using the oil for food program correctly. Holier than thou will not win here.

 

[FightingFat]

Fitz:

I question your loyalty to your country because you are at war too.

1. You don’t know what or where my Country is.
2. If you’re talking about where I’m posting from (England) then take into account that I do not know a single person who supports the war. Not one. Not a friend, not a colleague, not at home, at Church, at work. No one.

Fitz:

However I question more you inability to see the suffering the Iraqis had at the hands of their dictatorial government. Perhaps you did not see the public broadcasting of Sadams regime, his chemical warfare against his own people and much more than that- mass graves, etc.

As I employ an Iraqi friend, who has family still on the ground in Iraq, one working with the American troops as a translator and one working as a journalist for CNN, I would say that I probably have a better grasp of the than even you!

Fitz:

I have not manipulated my faith one bit. I am proud my dad served to bring down Hitler and to free many countries in Europe with the help of many other nations at our side. I am also proud of my daughter who is a pilot in the Navy and currently serves. She has had one deployment to the Persian Gulf and will be going back.

Good. It is a matter for your own concious ultimately I suppose. I see little doubt to disagree with the Holy Father in the matter. I will take my lead from him.

Fitz:

Live with your head in the sand, and you won’t understand. It is not so simple as you are making it out to be.

Oh I’m making it out to be simple?

 

[gilliam]

Norwich:

, lets ignore who gave lets ignore who trained his scientists to produce WMD’s, lets ignore who trained and equiped his army,lets ignore who it was backed him in his war with Iran.

I suggest you look up HOS 8:7

During the first half of the 1980s, Iraq was the world’s biggest importer of major weapons systems and it remained second, behind India, in 1986 and 1987. A report by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) in 1987 identified twenty-six countries which had supplied arms *both *to Iraq and to Iran. These countries were: Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Britain, Bulgaria, Chile, China, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, France, West Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, North Korea, the Netherlands, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the USA, the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. In addition, twelve countries had supplied only Iran while four countries had sold only to Iraq - Egypt, Ethiopia, Jordan and the Philippines. Not all of these deals were done with the knowledge or support of the government of the country concerned.

The long list above however conceals the fact that just two countries supplied most of Saddam’s arsenal. According to the SIPRI Yearbook in 1989, equipment from the Soviet Union accounted for 47% and France 28% of Iraq’s major weapons systems during the Iran-Iraq War. The Soviet supplies included tanks, artillery systems, helicopters and missiles, as well as advanced MiG aircraft. (Jane’s Defence Weekly, 18.8.90) Mirage and Super Etendard aircraft and Exocet missiles as well as helicopters and missiles were sold by French companies.

In November 1980, however, the Soviet Union had stopped its arms supplies and these were not resumed until after the Israeli air-raid on Iraq’s nuclear reactor at Osirak in July 1981. (Financial Times, 11.11.80 and 6.7.81) The Soviet embargo, although short, made Iraq look elsewhere for its weapons. It served also to boost Saddam’s ambitions to build his own arms industry and thus lessen his dependence on outside military supplies. France had its own problem with Iraq - extracting payment for the weapons became difficult towards the end of the 1980s. Ironically, this problem was to have been solved on the day of the invasion of Kuwait when the French government was due to sign a credit deal with Iraq to cover the latter’s £2.16 billion debts to French arms companies. (Times, 4.8.90)

 

[gilliam]

French connection armed Saddam

The United States stood by for years as supposed allies helped its enemies obtain the world’s most dangerous weapons, reveals Bill Gertz, defense and national security reporter for The Washington Times, in the new book “Treachery” (Crown Forum). In this excerpt, he details France’s persistence in arming Saddam Hussein.

*First of three excerpts* 
 
 
New intelligence revealing how long France continued to supply and arm Saddam Hussein's regime infuriated U.S. officials as the nation prepared for military action against Iraq.

…

The intelligence reports showing French assistance to Saddam ongoing in the late winter of 2002 helped explain why France refused to deal harshly with Iraq and blocked U.S. moves at the United Nations.
“No wonder the French are opposing us,” one U.S. intelligence official remarked after illegal sales to Iraq of military and dual-use parts, originating in France, were discovered early last year before the war began.
That official was careful to stipulate that intelligence reports did not indicate whether the French government had sanctioned or knew about the parts transfers. The French company at the beginning of the pipeline remained unidentified in the reports.
France’s government tightly controls its aerospace and defense firms, however, so it would be difficult to believe that the illegal transfers of equipment parts took place without the knowledge of at least some government officials.
Iraq’s Mirage F-1 fighter jets were made by France’s Dassault Aviation. Its Gazelle attack helicopters were made by Aerospatiale, which became part of a consortium of European defense companies. …

*French aid to Iraq goes back decades and includes transfers of advanced conventional arms and components for weapons of mass destruction.
The central figure in these weapons ties is French President Jacques Chirac. His relationship with Saddam dates to 1975, when, as prime minister, the French politician rolled out the red carpet when the Iraqi strongman visited Paris.
“I welcome you as my personal friend,” Chirac told Saddam, then vice president of Iraq.
The French put Saddam up at the Hotel Marigny, an annex to the presidential palace, and gave him the trappings of a head of state. The French wanted Iraqi oil, and by establishing this friendship, Chirac would help France replace the Soviet Union as Iraq’s leading supplier of weapons and military goods.
In fact, Chirac helped sell Saddam the two nuclear reactors that started Baghdad on the path to nuclear weapons capability.
France’s corrupt dealings with Saddam flourished throughout the 1990s, despite the strict arms embargo against Iraq imposed by the United Nations after the Persian Gulf war.
By 2000, France had become Iraq’s largest supplier of military and dual-use equipment, according to a senior member of Congress who declined to be identified.
Saddam developed networks for illegal supplies to get around the U.N. arms embargo and achieve a military buildup in the years before U.S. forces launched a second assault on Iraq.
One spare-parts pipeline flowed from a French company to Al Tamoor Trading Co. in the United Arab Emirates. Tamoor then sent the parts by truck through Turkey, and into Iraq. The Iraqis obtained spare parts for their French-made Mirage F-1 jets and Gazelle attack helicopters through this pipeline.

**A huge debt** 
U.S. intelligence would not discover the pipeline until the eve of war last year; sensitive intelligence indicated that parts had been smuggled to Iraq as recently as that January.*

washingtontimes.com/national/20040908-123000-1796r.htm

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Fitz:

I don’t ignore that we try to deal with rulers that don’t measure up. We haven’t armed Saddam in a long time, but France, Germany, and Russia had dealings more recently when they knew he was not using the oil for food program correctly. Holier than thou will not win here.

:clapping: Hey, fitz! You mean you don’t trust Saddam and Al-Queda?You don’t think they really want to be our friends?They wouldn’t want to kill us, they want to give us care bears,don’t you think? God Bless

 

[dumspirospero]

Fat…you don’t have a monoply on knowing people from Iraq…I know several people from that neck of the woods and they all believe that what we are doing is right…but then again, these are guys that received their education at The Citadel, so you would classify them as Arab Neo-Cons…so I guess their opinions wouldn’t matter to you.

1. You don’t know what or where my Country is.
2. If you’re talking about where I’m posting from (England) then take into account that I do not know a single person who supports the war. Not one. Not a friend, not a colleague, not at home, at Church, at work. No one.

As I employ an Iraqi friend, who has family still on the ground in Iraq, one working with the American troops as a translator and one working as a journalist for CNN, I would say that I probably have a better grasp of the than even you!

Good. It is a matter for your own concious ultimately I suppose. I see little doubt to disagree with the Holy Father in the matter. I will take my lead from him.

Oh I’m making it out to be simple?

 

[Fitz]

1. You don’t know what or where my Country is.

I have been open and honest about where I am from and you have not apparently. It is easier to come on board and bash. However, I don’t have time to answer your other concerns now as I am leaving. I know you might think I am ignoring but I will return later to answer the rest. You aren’t the only one with friends from the Middle East. I work with many also.

 

[gilliam]

FightingFat:

1. If you’re talking about where I’m posting from (England) then take into account that I do not know a single person who supports the war. Not one. Not a friend, not a colleague, not at home, at Church, at work. No one.

I really suggest you read the following:
The Reporting of Iraq and Israel: An Abuse of Media Power

 

[Norwich]

What I find most disturbing about a lot of the posts on this subject is how everyone blaims everyone else. If you point out how WE supported Saddam or how WE supplied him with weapons its always the Russians or the French or the Brits or the Americans but never US. Ask youselves a question Ladies and gentlemen how many of you, directly or indirectly gain some form of benefit from the arms trade? Don’t forget if you have any form of stock it probably has some connection with arms, if you have a private pension it will carry some stock in armaments. Almost evrything we have has some connection to the arms world. If you just want to blaim the Governments of these countries, remember WE voted for them!

 

[gilliam]

Norwich:

What I find most disturbing about a lot of the posts on this subject is how everyone blaims everyone else. If you point out how WE supported Saddam or how WE supplied him with weapons its always the Russians or the French or the Brits or the Americans but never US. Ask youselves a question Ladies and gentlemen how many of you, directly or indirectly gain some form of benefit from the arms trade? Don’t forget if you have any form of stock it probably has some connection with arms, if you have a private pension it will carry some stock in armaments. Almost evrything we have has some connection to the arms world. If you just want to blaim the Governments of these countries, remember WE voted for them!

Actually WE (in the US) stopped traiding with him a long time ago. But THEY (the anti-war gang) keep bringing up what very little WE did 25 years ago.

 

[Norwich]

QED