Make a Treaty with Al Qaeda?

[FightingFat]

dumspirospero:

Fat…you don’t have a monoply on knowing people from Iraq…I know several people from that neck of the woods and they all believe that what we are doing is right…but then again, these are guys that received their education at The Citadel, so you would classify them as Arab Neo-Cons…so I guess their opinions wouldn’t matter to you.

On the contrary.

I wasn’t saying I had a monopoly, just answering Fitz’s accusation-

I question more you inability to see the suffering the Iraqis had at the hands of their dictatorial government. Perhaps you did not see the public broadcasting of Sadams regime, his chemical warfare against his own people and much more than that- mass graves, etc.

By informing him that I do know of such things, from a direct source!

 

[FightingFat]

gilliam:

I really suggest you read the following:
The Reporting of Iraq and Israel: An Abuse of Media Power

I did. Interesting too. But I am amazed that I even started a thread in the politics II forum about US Media inaccuracies, and everyone shot me down in flames, yet you post one about British media corruption and expect me to say ‘Oh yea gilliam, I see now, we’ve all been duped here in Europe, you’re right!’

Come on!!!

 

[DaveBj]

Norwich:

There was one man, half English half American who once said “Jaw jaw is better than war war” At least whilst people are talking they aren’t dying!!!

I’m in the third volume of his series on WWII. When it came time for “war war,” he took it very seriously.

While the majority of Arabs and Muslims would probably just like to be left alone to get on with their lives, there is a small, well-financed, fanatical minority that would like to see the West (and the governments of most Arab states) come down in flames. They are well past the “jaw jaw” stage. And we need to recognize, like Winston did, what comes after “jaw jaw.”

DaveBj

 

[Norwich]

DaveBj:

there is a small, well-financed, fanatical minority that would like to see the West (and the governments of most Arab states) come down in flames. They are well past the “jaw jaw” stage. And we need to recognize, like Winston did, what comes after “jaw jaw.”

DaveBj

I have no argument with that at all. What I am saying is to stop this madness you have to cut out their support, and that comes from the normal islamic population who have no interest other than to be treated with respect and have their beliefs treated with respect. it is the perception, by them, that the West (and by the West I mean ALL the West, not just the States), does not respect them and is only interested in taking over their countries, their recources and their way of life and imposing our western values over their eastern way of living.

I have a question, tell me difference between fundamental Islam in the 21st century and Christianity in the 14th, 15th and 16th century. And remember Islam itself, by its own calendar is still in its own 16th century?

 

[Lance]

Norwich:

I have no argument with that at all. What I am saying is to stop this madness you have to cut out their support, and that comes from the normal islamic population who have no interest other than to be treated with respect and have their beliefs treated with respect. it is the perception, by them, that the West (and by the West I mean ALL the West, not just the States), does not respect them and is only interested in taking over their countries, their recources and their way of life and imposing our western values over their eastern way of living.

I have a question, tell me difference between fundamental Islam in the 21st century and Christianity in the 14th, 15th and 16th century. And remember Islam itself, by its own calendar is still in its own 16th century?

Respect is earned, not given. If they want our respect, don’t dance in the street after 9/11, respect other religions, and stop letting your leaders take advantage of you.

 

[Norwich]

Lance:

Respect is earned, not given

Wise words, it doesn’t come from the barrel of a gun, or from the mouths of politicians. Has it occured to you that respect is a two way street, is it not incumbant on us to earn their respect as much as we seem to feel they must earn ours?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Norwich:

Wise words, it doesn’t come from the barrel of a gun, or from the mouths of politicians. Has it occured to you that respect is a two way street, is it not incumbant on us to earn their respect as much as we seem to feel they must earn ours?

I think that there would be more of a chance of dialog if the would refrain from SAWING PEOPLES HEADS OFF!God Bless

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

I really dispair sometimes at the gung ho attitude that can grip an entire nation. Someone once said that the fastest and most devastating way of destroying your enemy’s is to make them your freinds.

Try looking at the world, South Africa, they started to talk, Northern Ireland, they started to talk, even India and Pakistan, they have started to talk. If you want to defeat Al Qaeda LISTEN to them, not yourself. All the gung ho rhetoric will simply bury the calls that are being made.

Someone else once said Man was born with one mouth and two ears, therefore he should listen twice as much as he talks.

I never heard of Jesus losing it with the under privaliged or oppressed, only those who spoke from authority in the temple to forward their own selfish aims. Time to take stock and figure out whose side your on, Man, or Gods?

I have listened to them. They want me to renounce my Christianity and my support of Jews or else they’ll kill me if possible. You don’t hear that on the news everyday do you? Just shows I’m REALLY listening hard.

Fact is, I’d never kill a single Muslim that wasn’t in defense of someone else. But these guys would be more than willing to kill me because I’m a Christian.

As soon as they renounce this policy, I’ll resume my listening - until the, I’ll refrain from making myself a target.

 

[Brad]

“Please refrain from judging a nation by a few people also. Imagine if I judged you by the imperialistic way England conquered the world until rather recent history? I am of Irish decent and I daresay I wouldn’t even be American if it weren’t for the questionable past of your country and the religious persecution that took place in Ireland at the hands of England.”

Sorry kiddo, but I’m Irish and Catholic so that argument has no validity at all.
There was one man, half English half American who once said “Jaw jaw is better than war war” At least whilst people are talking they aren’t dying!!!

So what should we talk about?

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

May I respectfully suggest you look at the other posts in this thread, then tell me who is threatening to kill whom?
One of the ten commandments is “Thou shalt not kill”. Now I’ve looked long and hard in the Old Testament and I can’t find the codicile that says “unless” or “in the case of”. If you know where it is please tell me.
p.s. if you quote “an eye for an eye” etc. then you are certainly not a biblical scholar or theologian. That was written with a very different context in mind.

Oh my gosh. You are going to lecture us about Biblical scholarship regarding context while refusing the fact that the Bible clearly teaches (if you read the whole thing) that the taking of a life in the process of protecting other lives is not killing as described in the 10 commandments? Give me a break please.

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

My apologies for appearing condescending, that was not my intention, the remark was intended as a gesture of friendliness not contempt.

As for as my statements they were intended to try and make people think about what they are saying. I have lived in the Arab world for a number of years and I KNOW that the vast majority have as little liking for the actions of a few, as all of us, yet, by banging the drum of retribution, killing, etc. etc. all we are doing is marginalising those who may secretely agree with our hatred of all that Al Qaeda stand for. We place them in the impossible situation of choosing between their religion, and our apparent disregard for life. (their lives, not our own). You say that we should not talk to Al Qaeda because they are murderers and want to kill us all! That is exactly the reason why we SHOULD talk. By talking and being rational we would remove their power base, the resentment much of the Arab world feels towards the west because of actions taken in the past by ALL the western powers to reduce their status to what WE feel it should be. The biggest problem? Palestine. Let us not forget the only reason ANYONE is talking to the Palestinians is because Arafat was a terrorist. That’s a lesson we taught them by ignoring them for so many years.

p.s. the half Brit half American? Churchill

The Koran teaches to kill Christians. That is why fundamentalist Taliban-like schools teach impressionable children that Christians and Jews are evil and they should rise up against us with killing us a very viable alternative.

This is their faith. Now, because the majority of the world believes killing is wrong and because they would face swift retribution, most Muslims do not kill - but it is not because their religion teaches them not to.

The only way to remove the power base of fundamentalist Muslims that actually follow the faith is to convert them to Christianity with a zeal for Truth that we are called to have by Jesus Christ - or did you not find that in your Bible?

 

[gilliam]

FightingFat:

I did. Interesting too. But I am amazed that I even started a thread in the politics II forum about US Media inaccuracies, and everyone shot me down in flames, yet you post one about British media corruption and expect me to say ‘Oh yea gilliam, I see now, we’ve all been duped here in Europe, you’re right!’

Come on!!!

I don’t know. I guess we have burned ourselves out compaining about the US mainstream press inaccuracies during the election.

Still, all in all, the US press claims not to be a mouth piece for one particular political party. The EU press actually brags about being mouth pieces. Completely different mind set.

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

Just a short note, it’s long past my bedtime over here.

Please remember Jesus didn’t just talk to the Pharasses, he searched out and talked to the prostitutes, the Tax Collectors and all those considered on the outside, he didn’t just look after the 99 sheep who stayed at home he went out and searched out the 1 sheep that was lost. If we are made in the image of Christ shouldn’t we be doing the same?

p.s. Saudi and no, I was an engineer.

We are doing the same. It’s called evangelization. Some Muslims convert. Some Christians get killed. The Church marches on - join the party.

 

[Brad]

FightingFat:

And who suffers most from this, or any war? I put to you that it is the innocent who have always suffered the most from such tactics.

I have tremendous admiration for all your loyalty to your country, but I do feel upset that you feel justified in manipulating your faith to justify such a terribly human tragedy as the war in Iraq.

It is not manipulating the faith. It is living it. It is called just war theory in the tradition of Aquinas and Augustine.

A human tragedy and just war are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Norwich]

Brad:

The Koran teaches to kill Christians.

Somebody hasn’t read the Koran. It actually describes Christians and Jews as Brother religions who should be respected as believers in Allah (God). Unfortunately there are those in Islam, just like those in Christianity who will read into the text not what it says but what they want it to say.

 

[Lance]

Norwich:

Somebody hasn’t read the Koran. It actually describes Christians and Jews as Brother religions who should be respected as believers in Allah (God). Unfortunately there are those in Islam, just like those in Christianity who will read into the text not what it says but what they want it to say.

There a contradictions throughout the Koran.

 

[Fitz]

Norwich:

Somebody hasn’t read the Koran. It actually describes Christians and Jews as Brother religions who should be respected as believers in Allah (God). Unfortunately there are those in Islam, just like those in Christianity who will read into the text not what it says but what they want it to say.

Are you Muslim, then?

 

[gilliam]

Lance:

There a contradictions throughout the Koran.

This is from a protestant site, it seems to cooberate what you say:

Koran’s View of Christians and Jews

Generally the Jews and Christians are considered as being unfaithful to God and enemies of Islam. However, some of the People of the Book are considered as believers if they live a good life obeying the Word of God (3:76,110). In some cases, Muslims are called to respect the piety and humility of Christians (5:46-48). Jews are generally criticized for rejecting Jesus and Mohammed while the Christians are generally criticized for idolatry (i.e. the Trinity), monasticism and praying to saints (39:4; 57:27ff.; 45:19).

The Koran’s instruction regarding relationships with the People of the Book is varied. In one place the Koran will declare that Muslims should live peacefully with the People of the Book, with the hope that they will see the error of their rejection of Mohammed (43:89). However, in other places the Koran clearly states that anyone who rejects Mohammed and the Koran are unbelievers and that unbelievers are enemies to be conquered (66:9; 48:16,29; 9:29,123). In one place the Koran states that it is okay to marry a wife who is a Christian (5:5) or be friends with an unbeliever provided they do not make war on your religion or take your home (60:8ff.), but in another place it declares that a Muslim should never befriend a non-Muslim (3:118; 5:51). This latter instruction presents a formidable barrier to evangelism if most Muslims followed this guideline to never befriend or believe anyone unless they follow Islam (3:73; 3:118; 5:51).

by: Charles D. Egal
Charles Egal has been serving as a missionary in a Muslim country. He has attempted to apply the principles in this article and has found them to be helpful. He is presently completing doctoral studies in North America but is anxious to return and continue his ministry to Muslims overseas.

 

[Lance]

If you want to know if a Muslim is your friend or not Professor Daniel Pipes has come up with a list of questions to ask them.

Violence: Do you condone or condemn the Palestinians, Chechens, and Kashmiris who give up their lives to kill enemy civilians? Will you condemn by name as terrorist such groups as Abu Sayyaf, Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya, Hamas, Hizbulla, Islamic Jihad and al-Qaida?
Modernity: Should Muslim women have equal rights with men (i.e. in inheritance shares or court testamony)? Do you accept the validity of other religions? Do Muslims have anything to learn from the West?
Secularism: Should non-Muslims enjoy completely equal civil rights with Muslims in Muslim countries? May Muslims convert to other religions? May Muslim women marry non-Muslim men? When Islamic customs conflict with secular laws, which should give way?
Islamic Pluralism: Are Sufis and Shi’ites fully legitimate Muslims? Is takfir(condemning fellow Muslims whith whom one has a disagreements as unbelievers) an acceptable practice?
Self-criticism: Do you accept the legitimacy of scholarly inquiry into the origins of Islam? Who is responsible for the 9/11 suicide hijackings?
Defense against militant Islam: Do you accept security measures to fight militant Islam, even if this means extra scrutiny of yourself? Do you agree that instatutions convicted of funding terrorist should be shut down?
Goals in the West: Do you accept that Western countries are majority-Christian and secular or do you seek to transform them into majority-Muslim countries ruled by Islamic law?

These questions offer a good starting point to separate friend from foe.

 

[Exporter]

Norwitch,

To sign treaties with Al Qaeda would be illegal. The U.S.A. can only sign treaties with the Gov’t. of a duly recognised nation.
**Al Qaeda is a thug-gang. They are outlaws. No Gov’t. would sign a treaty with them. Come see New York’s twin towers and the 3000 dead who were innocent & maybe you will understand. **
** In my opinion, Norwitch, you are living in a dream land. One doesn’t negotiate with Religious Zelots. They have been hating us for several hundred years.:yup: **