Make a Treaty with Al Qaeda?

[Jay74]

*“Multiculturalism is a Trojan horse.”*Do you mean what I hope and pray you don’t mean?

I could agree with the quote, but my meaning may be different.

A Trojan Horse was a gift, but it was misused to attack from within.

Multiculturalism is a gift that can be misused to attack from within. We shouldn’t reject the gift, but we should be careful of how people use it. A good example is immigration–we receive many wonderful people looking for a better life, but a few come here wishing to do harm.

That’s what I hope it means. But, as always, i could be wrong.

 

[ToddC]

Norwich:

No. Pope John Paul has stated very very clearly the war in Iraq is NOT a just war. He has stressed that a pre-emptive was is not and cannot be considered a just war. GB himself justified the Iraq was as a pre-emptive war because of WMD’s therefore it cannot be a just war. QED.

Or are you contending the Pope is wrong?

I am not saying the Pope is wrong. I believe he stated the war can not be justified based upon a doctrine of pre-emption, which is different from what stated above. The Just War Doctrine, I believe, states the decision rests with the governing body (Gilliam, where you at? You know this stuff better than I).

On a side note, what does QED stand for?

 

[gilliam]

ToddC:

I am not saying the Pope is wrong. I believe he stated the war can not be justified based upon a doctrine of pre-emption, which is different from what stated above. The Just War Doctrine, I believe, states the decision rests with the governing body (Gilliam, where you at? You know this stuff better than I).

On a side note, what does QED stand for?

The Vatican’s foreign minister said the United Nations must authorize any military action in Iraq and a papal adviser has warned against the “unacceptable human costs and grave destabilizing effects” of a preventive strike. There are no quotes from the Pope.

What the Vatican didn’t know was that major players in the UN Security Council were being bribed by Saddam.

 

[ToddC]

gilliam:

The Vatican’s foreign minister said the United Nations must authorize any military action in Iraq and a papal adviser has warned against the “unacceptable human costs and grave destabilizing effects” of a preventive strike. There are no quotes from the Pope.

What the Vatican didn’t know was that major players in the UN Security Council were being bribed by Saddam.

Thank you. Do you have specifics on how the JW Doctrine works?

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

Somebody hasn’t read the Koran. It actually describes Christians and Jews as Brother religions who should be respected as believers in Allah (God). Unfortunately there are those in Islam, just like those in Christianity who will read into the text not what it says but what they want it to say.

I take it that “someone” is you. It does consider the “Book” to be a great thing and that anything that contradicts the “Book” (the Bible) should not be considered. It is full of contradictions but it does command death to unbelievers.

Try these for starters - this is what the text says, not what you would like it to say:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Verse 9:123 - “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you.”

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

verse 5:17 - “Unbelievers are those who declare: ‘God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.’”

“Unbelievers are those that say:'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.” and then verse 5:73 - “Unbelievers are those that say: ‘God is one of three.’”

“The true believers are those that have faith in Allah and His apostle, and never doubt; and who fight with their wealth and with their persons in the cause of Allah. Such are those whose faith is true.”

 

[Brad]

gilliam:

This is from a protestant site, it seems to cooberate what you say:

Koran’s View of Christians and Jews

Generally the Jews and Christians are considered as being unfaithful to God and enemies of Islam. However, some of the People of the Book are considered as believers if they live a good life obeying the Word of God (3:76,110). In some cases, Muslims are called to respect the piety and humility of Christians (5:46-48). Jews are generally criticized for rejecting Jesus and Mohammed while the Christians are generally criticized for idolatry (i.e. the Trinity), monasticism and praying to saints (39:4; 57:27ff.; 45:19).

The Koran’s instruction regarding relationships with the People of the Book is varied. In one place the Koran will declare that Muslims should live peacefully with the People of the Book, with the hope that they will see the error of their rejection of Mohammed (43:89). However, in other places the Koran clearly states that anyone who rejects Mohammed and the Koran are unbelievers and that unbelievers are enemies to be conquered (66:9; 48:16,29; 9:29,123). In one place the Koran states that it is okay to marry a wife who is a Christian (5:5) or be friends with an unbeliever provided they do not make war on your religion or take your home (60:8ff.), but in another place it declares that a Muslim should never befriend a non-Muslim (3:118; 5:51). This latter instruction presents a formidable barrier to evangelism if most Muslims followed this guideline to never befriend or believe anyone unless they follow Islam (3:73; 3:118; 5:51).

by: Charles D. Egal
Charles Egal has been serving as a missionary in a Muslim country. He has attempted to apply the principles in this article and has found them to be helpful. He is presently completing doctoral studies in North America but is anxious to return and continue his ministry to Muslims overseas.

Islam is a Christian heresy. As such, it is a product of an spirit NOT from God. These spirits know the truth and must obey it when it is in front of them but they resist it with all their will - that is why we see such contradictions. They know the “Book” is true, but the hate it.

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

No, but I have tried to understand where my so called enemies are coming from, that way I don’t fall into the trap of blind rhetoric. Try listening to some of your own (older) military leaders, “to defeat your enemy you must understand him”, (Patton I think) to completely defeat him make him your friend. (anon)

Seems to me the same lesson Jesus taught, can’t remember him teaching violence, retribution and all out war. Or is that only for Sundays?

In order to make them your friend you have to first cultivate a land conducive to friendship - that is what is being done in Iraq.

 

[gilliam]

ToddC:

Thank you. Do you have specifics on how the JW Doctrine works?

See: Just War

 

[Brad]

FightingFat:

I do not agree that this war is in any way just. Any argument I have heard to support that claim simply denies the facts and is secondary to the initial reasons we invaded.

Put simply, it is justification after the event. You can convince yourself that this conflict has justification but I fail to see the logic in your argument.

The Church and its leaders are against war. Going to war is not living the faith Brad.

You are basing this on your limited information and hindsight yourself. Everyone in the world thought Husseing had WMDs and many still think he did and moved them. Do you have every piece of information that Bush and Blair have? The stated political reasons were not the whole story and are not the only considerations for “just cause” as one component of just war theory. The defense of the freedom and lives of Iraqis and other Middle Eastern peoples cannot be ignored simply because it is convenient for you to do so politically.

Some people in the Church were against the war. Others were not. The Pope never declared the war unjust. It is against my faith to have supported the war for the purpose of removing a murderous madman.

 

[Brad]

FightingFat:

Absolutely agree 100% I never fail to be shocked by members of this forum’s eagerness for conflict- it seems so contrary to everything I have grown up believing was the Catholic faith.

Peace may not be the easy answer, but as Catholics should it not be the first avenue we support?

Yes - it is the first avenue. But about killing 498,112 by Hussein, I had enough - it was time to stand up for my fellow brothers and sisters made in the image and likeness of God - whether they were Arab and Muslim or not.

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

I suppose you right, it must have been Jesus who turned his enemies into friends. (Paul!!!) But then, who listens to Jesus nowadays.

I do.

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

Quite right, but it appears he treated his enemies the same.

LK 22:49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

LK 22:51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

That was Jesus taking on His sacrifice as He willed to do so for His heavenly Father. If the soldiers were mass killing innocent people, I don’t think Christ would have stopped Peter.

 

[Brad]

FightingFat:

The truth is, whether you like it or not, they are killing Americans because they feel that attacking the USA will achieve something. That means they are angry about something. No we have some grounds for negotiation, even if that means explaining how misguided they are.

Ok. You arrange the meeting with the topic of us explaining to them how misguided they are and see who shows up.

The fact is, they want us converted or dead. They’ve been doing this since the days of Muhammed, when he spread Islam by the sword of death. This is what they do - this is what they are taught. Why is this difficult to understand? If you don’t understand it, go to a Taliban school for yourself - just make sure you convert before you do it or your investigation won’t last long.

 

[Brad]

FightingFat:

And who suffers most from this, or any war? I put to you that it is the innocent who have always suffered the most from such tactics.

I have tremendous admiration for all your loyalty to your country, but I do feel upset that you feel justified in manipulating your faith to justify such a terribly human tragedy as the war in Iraq.

By the way FF, I regret that you took the opportunity to swing this thread to a debate about Iraq without even a willingness to condemn the actions by Al Qaeda, which is what this was about.

However, it does reveal that you and the other peace-only crowd actually does understand that Al Qaeda and Iraq were linked and you only say that they were not to advance your politcal agendas.

 

[ToddC]

gilliam:

Your misquoting Patton. Patton said you needed to understand your enemy. But you don’t make him your friend, you overcome him.

Correct, Patton was referring to Rommel during the North Africa campaigns.

 

[Brad]

caroljm36:

The whole point of the NR article is that the Geneva conventions don’t apply because we don’t have a treaty with the terrorists, so do we want to make a treaty? Of course not. It’s not really possible, they don’t want to make a treaty with us, and even if they did, the Islamic tradition if not scripture allows phony treaty-making to buy time and it wouldn’t mean a thing to them.

But it’s kind of a phony argument in a way. There this nothing stopping us from voluntarily extending the Geneva conventions to the prisoners, or as much as we can and still get information from them. It would have been better for us to have taken that tack than the totally legalistic one recommended by Gonzalez and NR.

I think you missed the sarcasm in the article. That was certainly not their argument. Try reading it again.

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

No. Pope John Paul has stated very very clearly the war in Iraq is NOT a just war. He has stressed that a pre-emptive was is not and cannot be considered a just war. GB himself justified the Iraq was as a pre-emptive war because of WMD’s therefore it cannot be a just war. QED.

Or are you contending the Pope is wrong?

He has NEVER stated the Iraq was is unjust. You are wrong.

 

[Brad]

gilliam:

See: Just War

Also, a very good article on the roots of just war theory in the current issue of First Things. I highly recommend it.