Male modesty?

[chevalier]

For me this kind of a request would be a deal breaker. I have very close, but entirely platonic friendships with “exes”. I would not be with someone who demanded I throw away good friends.

I have at least some part of the same sentiment as you do, but please note I said “with exes” and “in dating-like scenarios”. One could at least tone it down to appease the sensibilities of the spouse (I think one would be morally required to) or even the fiance(e). Willingness to act prudently or pay some attention not to send mixed signals, could show both that the friendship were not sexual or romantic, and that the partner’s feelings were respected. It differs from person to person. One person stays friends with exes and it’s normal friends just like any other and their interaction is normal, some other person insists on meeting up with exes who would otherwise be mere acquaintances and keeps them around for auld lang syne and the memories of the romantic thing (in keeping with the soap opera tradition of romanticising the having/keeping of a tiny little spark for an ex forever). I’m tolerant, but I’d have a problem with the second example. I’d let the girl have her conclusions, but the old romantic attachments should be dealt with before marrying. Same way, I’d have a problem with a girlfriend’s ex featuring so prominently that one could have doubts as to who’s the current one.

 

[Kindness]

I think we’re also overlooking the spouse somewhat in these scenarios. If you are in love with another person you WILL take into account their thoughts and feelings. If you turn up to a new relationship with a long list of non-negotiables it could be some time before you make it to the altar, if ever. Marriage, especially a happy marriage includes compromise and sacrifice.

I have always been someone who felt comfortable staying in touch with some exes. When we got married however my future husband asked that none of them be present (not that there were a ton…). I said “even my boyfriend from when I was 16 whose still my friend?” But this was the situation. We were getting married in London, he was flying in a few days after his finals and had about 15-20 American friends and relatives attending the wedding. All the other guests were my friends and family, about 130 of them. Other than a few mutual friends he hardly knew anyone else. He did not feel comfortable looking out at a sea of unknown faces wondering who was an ex-boyfriend. I love my husband and he really loves me so I respected and understood his feelings and I didn’t invite any of the exes. And I didn’t keep all those friendships alive either. I’m honest with myself, if I still have - even well buried - feelings for an ex or I know they do for me as a Catholic that has no place in marriage.

For anyone who is offended by this concept you might be interested to know that old-flames, ex’s whatever you want to call them are statistically more likely to be chosen to have an affair with by a spouse than most other people. Spouses know that and are not naive. Flirting with temptation when you’re married is a fools game.

 

[Jay82]

*Hmmm…interesting thread. When I think of male modesty…I don’t only think of a man bearing his chest on the beach for example, although, I understand everyone’s comments on the physical, and I agree that men owe others the same ‘‘courtesy’’ as we women do, for men. (when it comes to bearing a little too much skin)

Rather, I tend to think of male immodesty, as cat calling, obnoxious vulgar behavior directed at women, reading Playboy, going to strip clubs, and all of that. To me, that is how men display a lack of modesty, by not respecting women in a moral sense. Used to be that when a woman entered the room, a man would curb his language, and not tell an off color joke while she was there. Those days are long gone for many. At work for example, there is a guy I have an office near, who feels the need to drop the ‘f’ word in every sentence when he’s telling me about a project he’s working on. I tolerated it for a while, and then finally one day I said…’‘do you have any idea how bad that sounds?’’ He stopped saying it. I’m not a saint, but I’m a woman, and I deserve respect, just like he deserves respect, and I wouldn’t speak to him using that language. Plus, it’s a conservative corporation…save your potty mouth for the bar. (If we only said everything we thought)

It isn’t respect a woman is going for when she dresses seductively to attract men, and it isn’t respect a man is going for when he doesn’t know how to treat and view women. Two way street.

I think there is nothing wrong with noticing a beautiful body, and thinking so in one’s mind…but, to lust after the person, is where one can get into trouble.

I think that both sexes play out immodesty in similiar but also different ways. Just my two cents.*

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

I was always taught from a very young age growing up that you always treat women with respect, be polite, well mannered, don’t use bad language, etc. I took this to heart and always do this, in all aspects of life - work, sports, volunteering, social, family members, etc.

What I find interesting about it conducting oneself this way…Because not that many guys do this, girls (and guys) pick up on my ‘super polite’ behavior after hanging out with me a few times. I routinely have people make comments on my ‘modesty’ like - why don’t you ever swear?, or one of these days we’ll get you to swear (jokingly), or is there ever a time when you aren’t nice, etc. This is all well and good, but I think it actually negatively affects me when it comes to finding a girlfriend. I think many girls (at least those in their 20s) group me into the ‘really nice guy friend’ category regardless if I have any interest in them or not. I’ve seen this happen to other guys who act ‘modestly’ like myself.

That being said, I think immodesty perpetuates itself. For instance, a resonably good looking guy who tells a vulgar joke or makes inappropriate comments at a social event may get some laughs and will be remembered as funny (by most, not all), and may seem attractive to some women, where as the polite guy may just be thought of as - ‘oh he was nice’ and is kind of an after thought. The same applies when girl who dresses a bit revealing and gets lot of attention, the other girls who dress more appropriately may get overlooked as a result. Then they feel compelled to change their behavior to get noticed.

This is an interesting thread. Good posts by all.

 

[whatevergirl]

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

I was always taught from a very young age growing up that you always treat women with respect, be polite, well mannered, don’t use bad language, etc. I took this to heart and always do this, in all aspects of life - work, sports, volunteering, social, family members, etc.

What I find interesting about it conducting oneself this way…Because not that many guys do this, girls (and guys) pick up on my ‘super polite’ behavior after hanging out with me a few times. I routinely have people make comments on my ‘modesty’ like - why don’t you ever swear?, or one of these days we’ll get you to swear (jokingly), or is there ever a time when you aren’t nice, etc. This is all well and good, but I think it actually negatively affects me when it comes to finding a girlfriend. I think many girls (at least those in their 20s) group me into the ‘really nice guy friend’ category regardless if I have any interest in them or not. I’ve seen this happen to other guys who act ‘modestly’ like myself.

That being said, I think immodesty perpetuates itself. For instance, a resonably good looking guy who tells a vulgar joke or makes inappropriate comments at a social event may get some laughs and will be remembered as funny (by most, not all), and may seem attractive to some women, where as the polite guy may just be thought of as - ‘oh he was nice’ and is kind of an after thought. The same applies when girl who dresses a bit revealing and gets lot of attention, the other girls who dress more appropriately may get overlooked as a result. Then they feel compelled to change their behavior to get noticed.

This is an interesting thread. Good posts by all.

*That’s good though, really, it will all pay off. Everything we do that is virtuous, is by the grace of God, and God notices it. If a person doesn’t notice it, it doesn’t go unnoticed, in vain, by God. So…keep up the good work! Plus, water seeks its own level.

Immodesty attracts immodest people. If a girl dresses sleazy, she will attract (most likely) an immodest man. A guy who hangs out at bars, strip clubs, and swears up a storm…will attract a woman who finds nothing wrong with that. We tend to attract what we project. *

 

[TaraJoBean]

I’m a newb so I’m not sure if everyone knows everyone else here? I hope nobody minds me chiming in.

My personal opinion is that there is definitely an issue of male modesty, just as it’s an issue for women, both in terms of clothing (which is more obvious) and in terms of behavior.

I think the usual concerns with modesty (which revolve around dress) tend to focus on women because women’s bodies are naturally more “showy” than men’s. This doesn’t mean that men’s bodies are not attractive to women, of course. They certainly are. The more exposed skin on either gender, the higher the risk the other gender may lust, have inappropriate thoughts, look a little too long, etc. However, I think that the focus of the “modesty issue” usually lands on women’s dress specifically is because 1) women’s bodies are more showy, 2) men are more easily aroused by what they see than women are, 3) clothing styles for women are more immodest than the men’s styles.

I will defend/explain each of these briefly (it’s easier for me that way. I’m a list person. ):

1. womens’s bodies are more showy: they have curvy hips/rears, breasts, obviously. Even long hair. All these feminine features, I think, make women’s bodies more “showy” (I don’t know how else to put it) and I think certainly breasts are more attractive to men than the male chest is to women. The female breasts are “private parts” for a reason… they are super attractive to men and are sexual. Men’s chests are attractive to women, but not in a “private parts,” innately sexual way. This is my opinion. I would liken the male chest’s attractiveness to a man’s attraction to a woman’s long slender legs. Certainly attractive, but definitely different and not innately “sexual” as the attraction men have to breasts. All that to say, women have more to cover up than men do.
2. men are more easily aroused by what they see than women are: Most adults have figured this out. Men are more easily aroused by what they see than women are, generally. So since women’s bodies are more showy, they especially have to be careful of how they dress if they don’t want to be an object of lust or inappropriate thoughts… or just for the sake of being a modest person!
3. Clothing for women is more immodest than clothing for men in our culture: The fact is, in our culture and day and age, it’s in “style” for women to dress immodestly. Tight-fitting jeans, short shorts in the summer, tank tops, skin tight swimsuits, bikinis that are more immodest than underwear… even form-fitting sweaters are the norm fercryininabucket. This is all “pretty,” “attractive,” and “in style” for women. (This opens a can of worms for me because as I try to dress modestly, it is seen as not as pretty or attractive as a form-fitting immodest sweater. It makes me upset sometimes, but oh well.) Think about men’s shorts… half the time they are almost to the knee. Tshirts are normal for guys, not tight-fitting shirts. Polo shirts with sleeves halfway down the upperarms, at least. Not sleeveless like is common for summer shirts for women. Men’s sweaters aren’t form fitting like they often are for women. Those knit tights that are skin tight under a long sweater probably won’t be in style for men anytime soon.

Anyway, that’s why, in my opinion, there is more of a focus on women’s dress in our culture.

However, that said, I DO think there is a problem with men’s modesty, too. I personally think men should wear a Tshirt and shorts to the beach. Speedos are obviously immodest to me. I don’t shudder to see a bare-chested man at the beach as much as I do to see a bikini-clad woman (and not just because I’m a lady ) because I think one is more likely to cause lust and one is more inappropriate than the other, but I still don’t think bare-chested men is OK (in front of women).

One more comment: Jay, I know what you and others are saying about modest and immodest behavior. I totally agree that men have lost the understanding that there is a certain way to act around ladies that is polite, and there are certain things you don’t say. Of course, I don’t think you should say anything vulgar or swear around men either, but I agree that it’s worse to do so in front of a lady. Unfortunately, a lot of women don’t even have the sense enough to care these days. But I say keep up the polite work and you will find a girl who very much notices you precisely because of your “nice guy” ways. Hey, it weeds out those ladies who think the not-so-polite guys are funny. Ask out whichever girl isn’t laughing. lol

 

[jmcrae]

here’s a little hypothetical for you…
You are pregnant, with, say, child number three, and your husband suddenly announces he’s going out to lunch with a female friend from work. How would you feel and what would you do or say?
Oh and to keep it on topic, he’s going out in short sleeves and with his top three shirt buttons undone, thus exposing his strong arms and handsome chest!

It would depend on who the woman was, her age, and whether she’s likely to remind him of a younger me.

If she’s a tall, long-limbed blonde, I’m safe, because she’s not his type.

But if she’s short, dark, and ample in the hips and bosom, then I’m in trouble - and I’d say, “Hey, take Charles with you, too - he needs to get out of the house and away from the computer.”

 

[chevalier]

This is all well and good, but I think it actually negatively affects me when it comes to finding a girlfriend. I think many girls (at least those in their 20s) group me into the ‘really nice guy friend’ category regardless if I have any interest in them or not. I’ve seen this happen to other guys who act ‘modestly’ like myself.
…]The same applies when girl who dresses a bit revealing and gets lot of attention, the other girls who dress more appropriately may get overlooked as a result. Then they feel compelled to change their behavior to get noticed.

And guess who gets the better off. Oh, chances are you AND that girl will find each other et voila, look who’s gonna be the best off of them all.

Great post there, TaraJo! Not implying I agree to the letter, but come on, do I rejoice at seeing such great structure and a fullness of meaning!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

here’s a little hypothetical for you…
You are pregnant, with, say, child number three, and your husband suddenly announces he’s going out to lunch with a female friend from work. How would you feel and what would you do or say?
Oh and to keep it on topic, he’s going out in short sleeves and with his top three shirt buttons undone, thus exposing his strong arms and handsome chest!

Gosh, my DH takes clients to lunch meetings all the time, male and female.

If he sported the short sleeve, opened shirt ensemble, I would suggest the gold chains and extra Drakkar Noir.

I’m not sure anyone would take him seriously though.

 

[John21652]

This thread has focused on modesty of dress.(well, most of the time!). Now if we explore the meaning of “modesty”, we find it has these synonyms -

bashfulness, celibacy, chastit, constraint, coyness, decency, delicacy, demureness, diffidence, discreetness, humbleness, humility, inhibition, innocence, lack of pretension, meekness, propriety%between%, prudery, purity, quietness, reserve, reticence, self-effacement, simplicity, timidity, unobtrusiveness, unostentatiousness, unpretentiousness, virtue

The antonyms for modesty are -

arrogance, boldness, braveness, conceit, ego, pride, self-confidence These antinyms can be summed up with one word -
HUBRIS.

Now hubris in general terms is an arrogant self belief in ones own importance and in the Bible it is covered by the sin of Pride.

Now, men wearing budgy smugglers, or galavanting around with bare chests and bare arms, (making some ladies swoon! ) and women wearing string bikinis on the beach, or revealing clothing in other contexts are all one and the same thing - Hubris.

Have we all, through peer pressure, advertising, or whatever, begun to fall for the ancient sin of Pride, with an overinflated sense of self worth. This over inflated sense of self worth may, or may not flow into other aspects of peoples lives. However, when you see some pretty horrendous sights of women in skimpy swim suits and equally horrible sights of men in tight fitting swim trunks, they obviously have an overinflated sense of self pride! Those who do look pretty hot in the skimpy clothing are those who do have something to show off, but they too are being encouraged to be hubristic. There used to be a saying about ‘hiding one’s light under a bushell’.

Is it the case that skimpy swim wear used by both sexes is just a symptom of a wider problem in our society - the problem of Hubris?

 

[Jay82]

*That’s good though, really, it will all pay off. Everything we do that is virtuous, is by the grace of God, and God notices it. If a person doesn’t notice it, it doesn’t go unnoticed, in vain, by God. So…keep up the good work! Plus, water seeks its own level.

Immodesty attracts immodest people. If a girl dresses sleazy, she will attract (most likely) an immodest man. A guy who hangs out at bars, strip clubs, and swears up a storm…will attract a woman who finds nothing wrong with that. We tend to attract what we project. *

I agree.

One more comment: Jay, I know what you and others are saying about modest and immodest behavior. I totally agree that men have lost the understanding that there is a certain way to act around ladies that is polite, and there are certain things you don’t say. Of course, I don’t think you should say anything vulgar or swear around men either, but I agree that it’s worse to do so in front of a lady. Unfortunately, a lot of women don’t even have the sense enough to care these days. But I say keep up the polite work and you will find a girl who very much notices you precisely because of your “nice guy” ways. Hey, it weeds out those ladies who think the not-so-polite guys are funny. Ask out whichever girl isn’t laughing. lol

Welcome to CAF…hope you like it here. Great post.

Yeah, I think my well mannered behavior weeds out the women I am not interested in dating… so that is definitely a plus.

And guess who gets the better off. Oh, chances are you AND that girl will find each other et voila, look who’s gonna be the best off of them all.

My thoughts exactly…I’m optimistic.

 

[shannyk]

Meh… we’re used to them here. Longer, looser shorts enjoyed a brief popularity among boys for a while (rebellion - they wanted to look unlike their grandpas and dads) but it died out. Speedos are simply the most comfortable to swim in.

Do men in speedos excite you?

Part of the reason I have a problem understanding these modesty threads when it comes to swimwear is that I’ve gone to ‘family-friendly’ beaches all my life. Most people I’ve seen in bikinis and speedos were grannies and granpas, fat guys with beer guts, postpartum women, and the like. And a whole lot of nakey kids.

So when you talk about speedos, I tend to imagine a fat guy in his 60s sporting one… and I don’t get what the problem is and why anyone would be tempted

Same with bikinis. I don’t know where you find all these irresistibly tempting women wearing them. My first images of bikini-clad women are a postpartum mom with stretchmarks and wrinkled grannies going for a morning swim. And, again, I fail to understand what the problem is.

Remind me not to move to Serbia if men wear speedos as typical swimming attire. uch::bigyikes:Gives me the heebee geebies no matter how fit the man is or is not, it’s WAAAAAAY too much information.

I wonder Litcrit if you guys in Serbia have a whole different…bikini culture.

See here, if you are out of shape in the slightest and wear a bikini, you are seen as gross. Bikinis are only for elite few; teenagers who have yet to use their bodies to reproduce, and those lucky women who stay thin and stretch mark free, no matter how many kids they have or Big Macs they eat. Honestly here, if you wear a bikini with a less than ideal body you are asking for people to literally jeer at you, laugh to your face, and throw a towel at you to cover up. There is a REAL hatred here for people who dare exposes a less than perfect body ESPECIALLY women. We live in the land of everything is offensive and everyone has a right to not see hear or be exposed to others they see as less worthy. It’s actually quite sad, and disturbing. I think you can see a bikini as usual swimwear because it sounds like there, it IS usual, typical wear for swimming, not just for a select few.

 

[Litcrit]

Remind me not to move to Serbia if men wear speedos as typical swimming attire. uch::bigyikes:Gives me the heebee geebies no matter how fit the man is or is not, it’s WAAAAAAY too much information.

I wonder Litcrit if you guys in Serbia have a whole different…bikini culture.

See here, if you are out of shape in the slightest and wear a bikini, you are seen as gross. Bikinis are only for elite few; teenagers who have yet to use their bodies to reproduce, and those lucky women who stay thin and stretch mark free, no matter how many kids they have or Big Macs they eat. Honestly here, if you wear a bikini with a less than ideal body you are asking for people to literally jeer at you, laugh to your face, and throw a towel at you to cover up. There is a REAL hatred here for people who dare exposes a less than perfect body ESPECIALLY women. We live in the land of everything is offensive and everyone has a right to not see hear or be exposed to others they see as less worthy. It’s actually quite sad, and disturbing. I think you can see a bikini as usual swimwear because it sounds like there, it IS usual, typical wear for swimming, not just for a select few.

You’re absolutely right. Bikinis are the norm for swimming, but many, especially grannies, wear ‘vintage’ type bikinis, not string stuff.

I had no idea it was that bad over there - I had an idea it was very different when people said ‘what could be the purpose of a bikini other than to flaunt your perfect body?’, but I couldn’t imagine what you described here.

Remind me to never, ever go swimming if I ever visit the US! Too many variables to consider! Too complicated!

 

[chevalier]

I’ve said on a couple of occasions I’ve had no problem with bikinis, but that obviously means the “vintage” types, not any string stuff. Not every two-piece is made to make people sin.

 

[flyingfish]

Remind me not to move to Serbia if men wear speedos as typical swimming attire. uch::bigyikes:Gives me the heebee geebies no matter how fit the man is or is not, it’s WAAAAAAY too much information.

Speedos have got to be the most immodest piece of clothing anyone can wear, simply because it frequently shows the outline of the… ahem And it makes it really obvious that some guys really like women’s bathing suits.

 

[John21652]

Speedos have got to be the most immodest piece of clothing anyone can wear, simply because it frequently shows the outline of the… ahem And it makes it really obvious that some guys really like women’s bathing suits.

This newspaper article has an interesting take on budgie smugglers. It seems some men also really like other mens’ bathing suits.
You’ll love the slang!

Another article right here which highlights how ‘context’ is important when we are discussing modesty. The article is about a man at Bondi Beach who virtually lives in his budgie smugglers, but meanwhile in England they are banned from a family friendly water park.

 

[Litcrit]

I’ve said on a couple of occasions I’ve had no problem with bikinis, but that obviously means the “vintage” types, not any string stuff. Not every two-piece is made to make people sin.

I’ll agree. ‘Vintage’ types cover everything relevant (bottom and breasts, unlike many one-pieces), while being very practical to swim in. I go to the type of beaches where I mostly see grannies and moms, so I don’t really know what hot young girls are wearing (in Bulgaria they mostly wear topless thongs, I can tell you that), but I’ve seen pictures on the Internet (trying to find decent bikinis to show here) of stuff that was definitely ‘made to make people sin’.

I just haven’t been exposed to this much. An elderly overweight couple lying together in the sun in a bikini and speedo… Three skinny wrinkled grannies in vintage bikinis going for a swim… a topless old lady with wrinkled breasts that have breastfed babies basking in the sun and watching the sea… a fresh mom exposing her postpartum stretchmarked belly to the sun while her baby is napping in the shade… mom in a bikini, dad in a speedo, and their naked kids playing in the shallow water - this is my usual beach scene.

These people are *relaxed *about their bodies, but are most definitely *not *trying to draw anyone’s attention to them, sexual attention least of all. To me, none of this is really either ‘gross’ or ‘immodest’. It’s kind of sweet, actually.

Speedos have got to be the most immodest piece of clothing anyone can wear, simply because it frequently shows the outline of the… ahem And it makes it really obvious that some guys really like women’s bathing suits.

You see, I’ve never seen an erection in a speedo… maybe because I don’t look for the outline of the penis… maybe because I’m as used to speedos as I am to jeans, and I don’t tend to look at men’s crotches when they’re wearing jeans, either.

This newspaper article has an interesting take on budgie smugglers. It seems some men also really like other mens’ bathing suits.
You’ll love the slang!

Another article right here which highlights how ‘context’ is important when we are discussing modesty. The article is about a man at Bondi Beach who virtually lives in his budgie smugglers, but meanwhile in England they are banned from a family friendly water park.

Wow. Speedo ‘fetish’ vs. being disgusted by it? I never would have guessed this is a hot issue (but I never could have guessed this about bikinis either, had I not come to CAF)!

You’ll notice that the guy in the second article who says the whole ‘issue’ is absurd and it’s just the most comfy thing to swim in (what I feel about it too) is Russian (my culture is also Slavic)! You CAN’T deny that the attitudes we have towards swimsuit propriety are heavily influenced by culture.

 

[John21652]

You CAN’T deny that the attitudes we have towards swimsuit propriety are heavily influenced by culture.

You’re probably right here. Read this article on nature or sin, which gives a brief rundown on nudity through the ages and its role in various societies. Another here on Nudity in Ancient to Modern Cultures. A real eye openner for me was an article I came across on the history of the codpeice in England during the middle ages. By todays standards, most of Britain’s aristocracy would have been locked up for flashing! This article attributes Queen Anne Boleyn with the art thou glad to see me line. A good article on underclothing and cod peices right here.

So, here we are today arguing over how much flesh is moral or immoral when really we are probably in a state of cultural flux. Immigration is the cause of cultural change and so to is the modern world’s instant communications systems, whereby we have Litcrit relaying a message across the globe about what’s acceptable in his slavic homeland and photos posted from abroad of the infamous budgie smugglers. We have dome away with male-female segregation, neck to knee swimsuits, so where to next…?

 

[shannyk]

You’re absolutely right. Bikinis are the norm for swimming, but many, especially grannies, wear ‘vintage’ type bikinis, not string stuff.

I had no idea it was that bad over there - I had an idea it was very different when people said ‘what could be the purpose of a bikini other than to flaunt your perfect body?’, but I couldn’t imagine what you described here.

Remind me to never, ever go swimming if I ever visit the US! Too many variables to consider! Too complicated!

It is bad, it really is. I hate to speak badly of my fellow Americans but dang, we have some MAJOR hang ups about body image here. Major. People can be really awful.

I just haven’t been exposed to this much. An elderly overweight couple lying together in the sun in a bikini and speedo… Three skinny wrinkled grannies in vintage bikinis going for a swim… a topless old lady with wrinkled breasts that have breastfed babies basking in the sun and watching the sea… a fresh mom exposing her postpartum stretchmarked belly to the sun while her baby is napping in the shade… mom in a bikini, dad in a speedo, and their naked kids playing in the shallow water - this is my usual beach scene.

These people are relaxed about their bodies, but are most definitely not trying to draw anyone’s attention to them, sexual attention least of all. To me, none of this is really either ‘gross’ or ‘immodest’. It’s kind of sweet, actually.

That IS sweet, wow. See, that would never ever go down here, can say with much confidence. Maybe here where I live in the Midwest US, where we have HUGE lakes with great beaches, you will see a somewhat more relaxed and accepting view of bodies, we’re just more laid back here…but quite honestly most of the people you describe if they were here, would just not swim at all and be in maybe shorts on the beach, and dip their toes in. I am one of those people. And honestly, my worst nightmare is going to a beach in Miami or San Diego or the Gulf Coast, the competition is FIERCE I tell ya. And that’s exactly what it is, a competition. A pathetic catty competition that so many women are soooo eager to win.

 

[Sierrah]

It’s an interesting question.

I find well-built male torsos attractive. If I see a well-built man in a speedo at a beach, I’ll look, but I won’t allow myself to start imagining him in bed with me. However, I’ll also notice a well-built man wearing a T-shirt. Or a suit. Or a winter coat.

So, no, I wouldn’t impose any ‘rules’ of modest dress for men other than covering the genitals (this would go for my culture, obviously, not every African tribe, I don’t know the norms of decency there).

Usually it’s the guys you don’t want to see wearing a speedo that are wearing the speedos…the only exception I can think of is the Olympic swimmers.

 

[TaraJoBean]

An elderly overweight couple lying together in the sun in a bikini and speedo… Three skinny wrinkled grannies in vintage bikinis going for a swim… a topless old lady with wrinkled breasts that have breastfed babies basking in the sun and watching the sea… a fresh mom exposing her postpartum stretchmarked belly to the sun while her baby is napping in the shade… mom in a bikini, dad in a speedo, and their naked kids playing in the shallow water - this is my usual beach scene.

These people are *relaxed *about their bodies, but are most definitely *not *trying to draw anyone’s attention to them, sexual attention least of all. To me, none of this is really either ‘gross’ or ‘immodest’. It’s kind of sweet, actually.

WOW. I’m on the east coast in the US and this is unheard of (illegal, too, I think). I can see why it strikes you as sweet since the people are so unself-conscious of how they look. That’s great in itself, but I must still say my opinion is that it’s immodest dress nonetheless. This kind of cultural difference is exactly why I said earlier that I think there is something just plain “indecent” about bikinis, speedos, public nakedness, etc. (meaning “immodesty” shouldn’t necessarily be defined as “causing someone to lust” because, after all, people are different). I think there is an objective definition of immodesty, which must include public nakedness at the very last, I should think.

If there is no objective immodesty then we could all just resolve to run around naked and eventually everyone would get used to it. Then there would be no such thing as immodesty at all. But I think this shows that there IS a line that should not be crossed (which may vary a little from culture to culture) but that there must be some objective immodesty that is common to all cultures & times.

I wonder if someone could dig up the church’s actual teaching on this?

It seems to me that there’s a good reason that “The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them” (Gen 3:21) after the fall. It seems to me that if God clothed Adam & Eve’s nakedness, we should emulate that.

I do agree that it is sad just how self-conscious Americans are made to be. It is ridiculous how we are made to feel once we have kids and have stretch marks (I used to cry and cry over this when I had my first baby). Or when we get older and we sag a little, or our skin gets wrinkly, or God forbid, we sprout some gray hair. (Quick! Run to Rite Aid and get something to dye that terrible stuff on your head!)

I think immodesty is bad and so is being overly concerned with bodily imperfections and it takes a conscious effort to avoid the two.