Male-only Altar Servers?

[Andreas_Hofer]

Catholic2003:

No one has a right to sit at the front of the bus. Yet, as Rosa Parks showed, a law which forbade blacks from sitting at the front of the bus was indeed discrimination.

I agree that no individual person, whether male or female, whether white or black or any other race, has a right to serve at the altar. Yet a rule which would categorically forbid blacks from serving at the altar would be discrimination. At least I think so. Do you disagree?

I agree that according to the definition, an all-male cadre of altar servers is discriminatory. The question I ask, though, is whether that automatically makes it bad. Many would argue that such discrimination is better for the Church, with some even advancing theological arguments for the discrimination that are supported by writings of popes throughout the centuries. So when I say I think the “discrimination argument” breaks down, I mean the argument that says discrimination exists, discrimination is always and everywhere unjustified, therefore females should be permitted to serve at the altar. I disagree with that second premise.

 

[Iohannes]

Crusader,
we finally agree

I just cannot believe that the sanctuary has become the battle of the sexes. Ridiculous!!

Why on earth would you guys want girls to wear a cassock, a priestly garment?

Many people do not understand a role of an altar server! IT is training for the priesthood.

Back in the old days, men who would serve Mass would were the folks training to be priests. Even with the development of the seminary, Altar servers still draw large amounts of men into the priesthood.

 

[Podo2004]

Iohannes:

Crusader,
we finally agree

I just cannot believe that the sanctuary has become the battle of the sexes. Ridiculous!!

Why on earth would you guys want girls to wear a cassock, a priestly garment?

Many people do not understand a role of an altar server! IT is training for the priesthood.

Back in the old days, men who would serve Mass would were the folks training to be priests. Even with the development of the seminary, Altar servers still draw large amounts of men into the priesthood.

Where do you guys get that it only can be guys? IT is NOT just priesthood in later life(it is good training though).
Tell me where you found out it is just for becoming priests
Podo

 

[Podo2004]

My daughter just became an altar server. If the rules changed and she couldn’t be one, then no big deal. I just think we should do what we can to serve the Church and God. If girls are permitted, my daughter will be doing it.

She still expresses interest in becoming a nun. It has been about 3 years so far with this interest.
[/quote]

That’s good! BTW Girls still can be servers, keep encouraging her to become a nun.
Podo

 

[Podo2004]

Crusader:

There is* always* a limit.

How could there be a limit? If you have a lot of servers and this boy wants to serve. What are you going to do? Tell him, “Umm sorry you can’t be a server because there are too many servers” It wouldn’t be fair to the person who wants to serve…
God is even happier when more people serve him.
Podo

 

[Crusader]

Podo2004:

How could there be a limit? If you have a lot of servers and this boy wants to serve. What are you going to do? Tell him, “Umm sorry you can’t be a server because there are too many servers” It wouldn’t be fair to the person who wants to serve…
God is even happier when more people serve him.
Podo

Incorrect. Only so many servers can be used before they start bumping into one another.

The whole idea is to serve God, not to serve oneself.

 

[rayne89]

Crusader:

Incorrect. Only so many servers can be used before they start bumping into one another.

The whole idea is to serve God, not to serve oneself.

We have up to 12 (all-male) servers at a mass. There are pews specifically reserved for them and they’ve never “bumped into each other.”

 

[Crusader]

Iohannes:

Crusader,
we finally agree

I just cannot believe that the sanctuary has become the battle of the sexes. Ridiculous!!

Why on earth would you guys want girls to wear a cassock, a priestly garment?

Many people do not understand a role of an altar server! IT is training for the priesthood.

Back in the old days, men who would serve Mass would were the folks training to be priests. Even with the development of the seminary, Altar servers still draw large amounts of men into the priesthood.

Let me be very clear. The Church says females can serve, so there is no abuse if they do. It would be both legal and appropriate for a female to serve Mass in say a woman’s prison or a remote convent.

HOWEVER, to fill altar serving slots with females when they could (and should) be going to males who just might be discerning a vocation to the priesthood or permanent diaconate is simply wrong. That’s simply placing sexism/feminism ahead of the Church.

So while it is indeed allowed by the Church, and while it is most certainly appropriate in some limited cases, it’s wrong to clog altar server slots with females when appropriate males are available.

 

[Crusader]

rayne89:

We have up to 12 (all-male) servers at a mass. There are pews specifically reserved for them and they’ve never “bumped into each other.”

You need some background in number line theory. Twelve is not “unlimited.”

I have no idea why you have 12 servers, but that’s another posting I’m sure.

 

[katolik]

Catholic2003:

No one has a right to sit at the front of the bus. Yet, as Rosa Parks showed, a law which forbade blacks from sitting at the front of the bus was indeed discrimination.

I agree that no individual person, whether male or female, whether white or black or any other race, has a right to serve at the altar. Yet a rule which would categorically forbid blacks from serving at the altar would be discrimination. At least I think so. Do you disagree?

A bus is just a bus. If I spit on it, it is nothing. But if I purposely spit on an altar, I have commited a sacrilege The altar is holy, the bus is just a hunk of metal.

 

[Catholic2003]

katolik:

A bus is just a bus. If I spit on it, it is nothing. But if I purposely spit on an altar, I have commited a sacrilege The altar is holy, the bus is just a hunk of metal.

So if discrimination occurs on a bus, this is a sin against social justice. But if discrimination occurs at the altar, this is a stain on the Eucharist itself.

 

[delorean_boy]

I was an alter boy just as the vatican ok’d girls, i was in sixth grade.
and anyone who thinks that girls being alter boys wont drive the boys out is crazy. little boys dont like to hang out with little girls. thats a FACT. I was a little boy once. almost every boy at our catholic gradeschool, over fourth grade was an alter boy. when the girls were let in, it pretty much ruined it for most of us. and almost nobody wanted to serve with a girl, it was uncomfortable.
And as a man who is trying to discern a vocation to the priesthood or monastic life, i can tell you that the times when i was an altar boy have very much impacted my feelings. all of us really looked up to the priest we served with, and even though maybe not all will become priests; i guarantee that more young men would be considering the priesthood if we had more altar boys.
just my two cents.

 

[rayne89]

Crusader:

You need some background in number line theory. Twelve is not “unlimited.”

I have no idea why you have 12 servers, but that’s another posting I’m sure.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=259530#post259530

I never said 12 was unlimited, I just said we had 12 sometimes which I think is alot by most standards. No need to be sacarstic.
Peace.

 

[katolik]

12 is not enough!!! If I was a bishop I would have masive processions. Before Mass the clergy would walk in four thurifers… Crossbearer[2 if i was an archbishop]… 12 candlebearers… seminarians… 4 porters with keys. 4 exorcists[prevaticanii minor order]… 4 lectors…4 acolytes[ordained]… 24 subdeacons…12 deacons…one priest … canopy… 100 pound monstrance… 10mile procession… this would be great…

 

[Iohannes]

Podo2004:

Where do you guys get that it only can be guys? IT is NOT just priesthood in later life(it is good training though).
Tell me where you found out it is just for becoming priests
Podo

This is one of the biggest problems of people in this forum, maybe me too, people always misinterpret other people’s work. I never said girls are forbidden to serve if they are allowed in New Mass. No wonder no one can interpret anything correctly.

 

[Iohannes]

Crusader:

Let me be very clear. The Church says females can serve, so there is no abuse if they do. It would be both legal and appropriate for a female to serve Mass in say a woman’s prison or a remote convent.

HOWEVER, to fill altar serving slots with females when they could (and should) be going to males who just might be discerning a vocation to the priesthood or permanent diaconate is simply wrong. That’s simply placing sexism/feminism ahead of the Church.

So while it is indeed allowed by the Church, and while it is most certainly appropriate in some limited cases, it’s wrong to clog altar server slots with females when appropriate males are available.

The answer is yes and no. The ban is still intact in the Traditional Mass and any diocese or clergy who wants to ban female altar servers. If it is permitted by the diocese and the priest is fine with it, then it is legal. Where do we disagree?

 

[Iohannes]

katolik:

12 is not enough!!! If I was a bishop I would have masive processions. Before Mass the clergy would walk in four thurifers… Crossbearer[2 if i was an archbishop]… 12 candlebearers… seminarians… 4 porters with keys. 4 exorcists[prevaticanii minor order]… 4 lectors…4 acolytes[ordained]… 24 subdeacons…12 deacons…one priest … canopy… 100 pound monstrance… 10mile procession… this would be great…

I been to a Solemn Mass with 2 Candle bearers, 6 torch bearers, 2 main servers, a thurifer and a boat holder adding up to a total of 12 altar servers plus a Master of Ceremony.

Along with that, there was a Deacon, wooden subdeacon and of course the main celebrant.

 

[Crusader]

Iohannes:

Crusader,
we finally agree

I just cannot believe that the sanctuary has become the battle of the sexes. Ridiculous!!

Why on earth would you guys want girls to wear a cassock, a priestly garment?

Many people do not understand a role of an altar server! IT is training for the priesthood.

Back in the old days, men who would serve Mass would were the folks training to be priests. Even with the development of the seminary, Altar servers still draw large amounts of men into the priesthood.

I have never seen CATHOLIC altar girls wear the cassock and surplice. Even when males are wearing that garb, the females are typically vested in albs. Watch a Mass from the National Shrine, male altar servers wear cassock/surplice, females wear albs.

Conversely it is extremely common for women to wear cassocks and a surplice or cotta in the different Protestant sects.

It would simply make no sense to take priestly garments that have traditionally been on loan to seminarians and altar boys and have females vest in them. Although I’m sure some sexist-feministas do at some Catholic parishes.

 

[Crusader]

Iohannes:

I been to a Solemn Mass with 2 Candle bearers, 6 torch bearers, 2 main servers, a thurifer and a boat holder adding up to a total of 12 altar servers plus a Master of Ceremony.

Along with that, there was a Deacon, wooden subdeacon and of course the main celebrant.

You need to tell them to add a crucifer…

What’s the difference between a candle and a torch?

And why can’t you have a living subdeacon? It would seem that lugging a wooden replica around would be a real pain in the spine?

 

[Iohannes]

Crusader:

You need to tell them to add a crucifer…

What’s the difference between a candle and a torch?

And why can’t you have a living subdeacon? It would seem that lugging a wooden replica around would be a real pain in the spine?

At the parish I used to go to. We used big Candles when the Gospel was chanted and the smaller torches were used at the Roman Canon and the distribution of Holy Communion.

Very funny.
A wooden/straw subdeacon is a term for a acoylte or layman filling in a role for a subdeacon. Since he is not ordained one, he cannot do all the functions of a subdeacon, but most.