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Crusader
Guest
Unfortunately some people place “social justice” ahead of the Eucharist. But thankfully that viewpoint is quickly going the way of failed experiments like liberation theology.
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Catholic2003
Guest
There is no conflict between social justice and the Eucharist, as both derive from the person of Jesus Christ. Truth cannot contradict truth.
The Chruch has decided that women may serve in the liturgical role of altar server, as well as the roles of reader and EMHC. Deal with it.
C
Crusader
Guest
The problems begin when people like you place (or attempt to place) the primary focus on social justice at the expense of the Eucharist, or the worship of the Eucharist.
Serving at the altar fosters vocations to the priesthood and the permanent diaconate. You need to deal with the fact that fostering such vocations trumps your sexist/feminist desires.
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katolik
Guest
xThe Eucharist is truly Jesus CHrist,while “Social justice” is a 19th century protestant idea.
Anyways, Catholic of 2003, what would happen if the Church prohibited women from being altar boys, readers, or extra-extra-extra- extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist[that’s what they truly are]?
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Catholic2003
Guest
I just reread the Catechism section on Social Justice, but I didn’t see anything about it being a 19th century Protestant idea. Maybe you could point out where the CCC says that?
There was a very interesting Vatican II quote: “Every form of social or cultural discrimination in fundamental personal rights on the grounds of sex, race, color, social conditions, language, or religion must be curbed and eradicated as incompatible with God’s design.”
Hmm. Incompatible … with God’s design. That’s very different than saying that discrimination is incompatible with 19th century Protestant ideas, don’t you think?
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Teresita
Guest
I checked Christifideles Laici, and though a lot of it is waffle (sorry, Holy Father, but it is), certain points do emerge very clearly:
All forms of discrimination in the area of human rights and the ‘dignity of the human person’ must be avoided.
The role of women in the world can be heightened and advanced.
The role of women in the Church can be expanded in areas such as parochial councils, administration, catechesis, evangelism, and so on.
Women cannot be admitted to the ordained ministry.
Nothing is said at all about the role of women as altar servers, extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, or anything else liturgical at all.
Conclusion: despite the guff about all discrimination having to be avoided, clearly, this document discriminates all the time. And we all discriminate all the time. If you don’t discriminate between (say) the red light and the green light, you and your car won’t last long. On the other hand, if you discriminate between black and white skins, you’ll also get into trouble, or should do. The point is, not whether we should discriminate - to be human is to understand differences and to act upon them - but to know when it’s right and when it’s wrong to discriminate. That is why quoting bishops or even Papal documents is completely pointless unless the context is made clear.
As for the basic point about female altar servers, most people on this list have accepted them - that is, most of us (including myself) attend Masses where they’re used. That does not mean that we think the decision to allow them was politic: political, perhaps. You need to discriminate
between approval and obedience: we are commanded to be obedient, but there is nothing to say that we can’t use our judgement as to whether a particular mandate is a good one. The Church is holy, the Bride of Christ: but her ministers have never been given the gifts of impeccability, infallible wisdom or even (on some occasions) common sense.
Sue
All forms of discrimination in the area of human rights and the ‘dignity of the human person’ must be avoided.
The role of women in the world can be heightened and advanced.
The role of women in the Church can be expanded in areas such as parochial councils, administration, catechesis, evangelism, and so on.
Women cannot be admitted to the ordained ministry.
Nothing is said at all about the role of women as altar servers, extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, or anything else liturgical at all.
Conclusion: despite the guff about all discrimination having to be avoided, clearly, this document discriminates all the time. And we all discriminate all the time. If you don’t discriminate between (say) the red light and the green light, you and your car won’t last long. On the other hand, if you discriminate between black and white skins, you’ll also get into trouble, or should do. The point is, not whether we should discriminate - to be human is to understand differences and to act upon them - but to know when it’s right and when it’s wrong to discriminate. That is why quoting bishops or even Papal documents is completely pointless unless the context is made clear.
As for the basic point about female altar servers, most people on this list have accepted them - that is, most of us (including myself) attend Masses where they’re used. That does not mean that we think the decision to allow them was politic: political, perhaps. You need to discriminate
between approval and obedience: we are commanded to be obedient, but there is nothing to say that we can’t use our judgement as to whether a particular mandate is a good one. The Church is holy, the Bride of Christ: but her ministers have never been given the gifts of impeccability, infallible wisdom or even (on some occasions) common sense.Sue
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katolik
Guest
Only 4 altar boys at one Mass? Wow
In Poland I remember parishes with only 500 families and there were Masses with 20-30 altarboys at one Mass.[and this is normal] Yes these were normal sunday Masses or Days of obligation. THere are around 20 boys at the altar every Mass even 7 AM Sunday[three Masses per sunday]Don’t tell me that boys don’t want to serve. Have boys only serve!!! Well in Poland female readers and Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist[very few] are a rarity. Also communion in the hand has been fought against in Poland but the bishops want to force it on the people. Still with this there are very few Handkommunia’s[term for communion in the hand] there now
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mjdonnelly
Guest
That’s great. In my town, the only children to show up for the classes has been girls. None of the boys who made their first Communion have decided to become a server. Too busy with (american) football, etc.
In a couple years my son will be of age. I fully expect he will become a server. I believe it is part of his duty as a young Catholic.
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Catholic2003
Guest
I think that’s a very good attitude to take. And since you are a father encouraging his son, I’m sure you will meet with the widespread approval of those contributing to this thread.
Apparently its only mothers encouraging their daughters to be altar servers that is grave abuse of parental responsibility.
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Catholic2003
Guest
Except that when I use my judgment to actually approve of the Church’s teachings in this area, I am accused of putting myself ahead of the Church, and of being driven by something other than Catholic Christian faith. It’s enough to make me wonder if there is some other agenda at work.You need to discriminate
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Crusader
Guest
Similar perhaps to the sexist/feminist agenda you seem to so ardently push on these forums? While it may be difficult to accept, sexist/feminism is no reason to place your own values ahead of the Church.
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mjdonnelly
Guest
My daughter just became an altar server. If the rules changed and she couldn’t be one, then no big deal. I just think we should do what we can to serve the Church and God. If girls are permitted, my daughter will be doing it.
She still expresses interest in becoming a nun. It has been about 3 years so far with this interest.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
That’s why the discrimination argument breaks down. Other Vatican documents already cited have shown us that no one has a right to serve at the altar.
C
Crusader
Guest
My daughter just became an altar server. If the rules changed and she couldn’t be one, then no big deal. I just think we should do what we can to serve the Church and God. If girls are permitted, my daughter will be doing it.
She still expresses interest in becoming a nun. It has been about 3 years so far with this interest.
[/quote]
And she’s filling a slot that should be served by a male that might just possibly one day become a priest or permanent deacon.
She still expresses interest in becoming a nun. It has been about 3 years so far with this interest.
[/quote]
And she’s filling a slot that should be served by a male that might just possibly one day become a priest or permanent deacon.
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Catholic2003
Guest
Andreas Hofer:
I agree that no individual person, whether male or female, whether white or black or any other race, has a right to serve at the altar. Yet a rule which would categorically forbid blacks from serving at the altar would be discrimination. At least I think so. Do you disagree?
No one has a right to sit at the front of the bus. Yet, as Rosa Parks showed, a law which forbade blacks from sitting at the front of the bus was indeed discrimination.
I agree that no individual person, whether male or female, whether white or black or any other race, has a right to serve at the altar. Yet a rule which would categorically forbid blacks from serving at the altar would be discrimination. At least I think so. Do you disagree?
C
Crusader
Guest
It’s quite ugly how you attempt to use racism to support sexism/feminism. Men any any skin tone may become priests and deacons. Why would anyone keep them from serving. No woman may become a priest or deacon. Why should they be allowed to fill a slot when a male discerning the priesthood or diaconate could serve? make no sense.
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Catholic2003
Guest
In post #173, Andreas Hofer made the argument that because no one has the right to serve at the altar, the categorical exclusion of an entire class of people did not constitute discrimination. What is wrong with testing that argument by applying it to another class of people?
C
Crusader
Guest
Because God disallows female priests and deacons.
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mjdonnelly
Guest
Start a letter writing campaign to the bishops to get this position changed. I’ll send one in also.
There are not a limited number of slots for altar servers at our parish.
C
Crusader
Guest
There is* always* a limit.
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