Male-only Altar Servers?

[bear06]

renee1258:

Blame the women…

There are other factors to consider. Decades ago college wasn’t an option for many Catholics who came from under educated immigrant families. The only way a young man could get an education was to become a priest. Now with the economy focused on an educated workforce many of those men that would consider priesthood can obtain academics by other means.

From my understanding even thought the vocation of preisthood has seen their numbers decline the vocation of deacons has steadily increased. And the last time I checked women couldn’t be a deacon. So the theory that female alter servers is to blame should be nixed!

I’m not talking about decades ago. Not all diocese allowed altar girls decades ago. Some have only brought them in during the last 5 years.

Use your logic. Don’t you think there would be a huge decline in the Boy Scouts if girls were allowed in? Same thing with altar boys. It was a boys club where they got to hang with the priest and they thought this was cool. In come the girls and the dynamic changes.

By the way, I don’t blame the girls, I blame the bishops who started allowing this 25ish years ago, long before they had permission to do so. Now what are we hearing? We really should consider letting women be priests since there’s such a shortage. Thankfully this will never happen!

 

[katolik]

renee1258:

Blame the women…

There are other factors to consider. Decades ago college wasn’t an option for many Catholics who came from under educated immigrant families. The only way a young man could get an education was to become a priest. Now with the economy focused on an educated workforce many of those men that would consider priesthood can obtain academics by other means.

From my understanding even thought the vocation of preisthood has seen their numbers decline the vocation of deacons has steadily increased. And the last time I checked women couldn’t be a deacon. So the theory that female alter servers is to blame should be nixed!

Sure…
Our ancestors were stupid undereducated idiots.Just becuase they didn’t read Voltaire and Marx doesn’t mean they’re stupid

The small number of priests is not just an American problem, its a worldwide problem. Anyways in Catholic[formerly] France there are places where one priest serves 10 parishes, and this pretty much normal there.

 

[katolik]

Let’s here what the Magisterium has to say about this:

Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter[chapter 26] to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil pracitce which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbid it. In his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should altogether be refused this ministry.’ We too have forbidden this practice in the same words…

This is part of the encyclical Allatae Sunt by Pope Benedict XIV,
July 26, 1755

So 3 Popes in just this one paragraph have been mentioned as condemning this evil practice. Isn’t that enough proof you need?

 

[katolik]

JKirkLVNV:

This thread was on my mind at Mass yesterday. I watched the little girl server (2 yesterday, one boy, one girl) and watched how she did so intently that I missed coming in on the tenor canon of the “Agnus Dei” and got a questioning look from our choir director. She was an earnest little thing and she did a good and reverent job (our servers must all be such a joy to Our Lord, they are all so reverent). Part of me wondered “Why shouldn’t she be allowed to serve?” When the question, however, is posed the way Crusader posed it, in the context of possible vocations to the priesthood, well, I must admit that may well be another kettle of fish. In that context, is it actually fair to allow the girls to serve, knowing that they will always be denied ordination? Aren’t we doing them a diservice in allowing them so close, yet no closer? The Holy Father has said women priests will never happen. Maybe it should be reserved just for boys.

Well I think this is just your motherly instinct, Ma’am[not to be rude]. My mother also looks the same way at the gaggles of little children at the Traditional Mass, who don’t say a peep during the 1 and a half long hour Mass.

 

[bear06]

katolik:

Let’s here what the Magisterium has to say about this:

This is part of the encyclical Allatae Sunt by Pope Benedict XIV,
July 26, 1755

So 3 Popes in just this one paragraph have been mentioned as condemning this evil practice. Isn’t that enough proof you need?

Now, how come we have to obey this if it’s not spoken ex-cathedra? (yes, that was sarcastic since it’s an argument often used to reject JPII’s encyclicals)

The fact is that no Pope has the authority to bind another unless his pronouncements are spoken ex-cathedra. Why is this? For one reason, not all of the Popes’ encyclicals were timeless. Some dealt specifically with the times they were living in and some did not. The current Pope is the arbiter, not us. There are many encyclicals on dress, women in sports, etc. that do not apply today. I doubt that even the Traditionalist follow all of the pre-VII encyclicals so this is a straw argument.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

katolik:

Well I think this is just your motherly instinct, Ma’am[not to be rude]. My mother also looks the same way at the gaggles of little children at the Traditional Mass, who don’t say a peep during the 1 and a half long hour Mass.

I’m a guy. The name “John” and the fact that I mentioned “tenor” might have have been clues. I’m a teacher, maybe that’s what you’re refering to.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JKirkLVNV:

I’m a guy. The name “John” and the fact that I mentioned “tenor” might have have been clues. I’m a teacher, maybe that’s what you’re refering to.

Whoops, just realized my name doesn’t actually appear in my posts.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Something I think has been neglected so far in the discussion is our understanding of just what “participation” in the Mass entails. Many people would argue that being an altar boy is a chance to participate more fully in the Mass (or something else to that effect). But John Paul II, the very person who allowed females to serve at the altar, warns us against such an attitude (anyone who can track down a citation, please do so - I can’t for the life of me remember in which document I read it). That sort of thinking leads to the belief that only those fulfilling some sort of ministerial role (servers, readers, choir members, etc.) are fully participating in the Mass, while all other “normal” congregants get some sort of secondary experience. This is patently untrue. Once this is understood, the “discrimination” argument carries considerably less weight.

 

[Crusader]

bear06:

I’m a gal so I don’t think anyone can try and accuse me of trying to “keep women down”. Altar girls drive the boys away without a doubt! I’ve pretty much been in Churches with altar girls all my life. Our diocese allowed them long before they were approved. My in-laws diocese did not allow them until just recently and I was always impressed with the 6 altar boys they had at every mass. Guess what, the second the girls were allowed there were 5 altar girls and 1 altar boy. It was sad.

No question there.

bear06:

There are soooooooo many ways that women can serve in the Church without having to be front and center. For some reason, they want to be. It’s very hard to find people to come in and clean the Church, decorate the altar, adore the Blessed Sacrament but boy howdy, if you need an usher, reader, server, women volunteer all over the place. For some reason the former jobs listed see beneath them or not glamorous enough.

I think quite a few altar girls are pushed into serving by their mothers – who may or may not be altar girls themselves.

bear06:

I do see the Vatican taking steps to bring back the altar boys in force and I take heart in this. I also see the Vatican appointing great bishops lately, mine included. Thankfully, vocations are becoming very important again!

Indeed. Thanks be to God.

The next action I see is a de-fide statement that the diaconate is limited to men…

 

[kmktexas]

From my understanding even thought the vocation of preisthood has seen their numbers decline the vocation of deacons has steadily increased. And the last time I checked women couldn’t be a deacon. So the theory that female alter servers is to blame should be nixed!

This is a red herring argument. The reason that the numbers of deacons has increased so much recently is that until recently Permanent Deacons were discouraged and the only Deacons you used to see were transitional Deacons. Little by little, the concept of Permanent Deacons is gaining acceptance but still not allowed in all diocese in the US.

Also, my own pet theory is that we have a lot of Permanent Deacons now because we, as a Church, did such a poor job of fostering vocations and discernment in the 70s and 80s. But that’s a topic for another thread.

 

[katolik]

JKirkLVNV:

Whoops, just realized my name doesn’t actually appear in my posts.

I am very, very sorry. Please accept my apology.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

katolik:

I am very, very sorry. Please accept my apology.

LoL! That’s quite alright, I’ll have to establish a signature with my name in it. John

 

[mjdonnelly]

Crusader:

Again, the idea that too few males want to serve is simply rediculous. What did they do prior to 1969? I don’t recall many Masses being cancelled…

Prior to 1969? No idea, I was born in 1971. The values of children is based on the values of their parents. If the parents don’t care, neither will the children.

 

[Catholic2003]

Teresita:

1. Which bishops wrote this?

See post #82.

Teresita:

And how many feminist ‘advisors’ did they have to help them?

Probably about as many as Pope John Paul II had when he wrote, “As an expression of her mission the Church must stand firmly against all forms of discrimination and abuse of women.” (Christifideles Laici).

 

[Catholic2003]

Andreas Hofer:

Something I think has been neglected so far in the discussion is our understanding of just what “participation” in the Mass entails. Many people would argue that being an altar boy is a chance to participate more fully in the Mass (or something else to that effect). But John Paul II, the very person who allowed females to serve at the altar, warns us against such an attitude (anyone who can track down a citation, please do so - I can’t for the life of me remember in which document I read it). That sort of thinking leads to the belief that only those fulfilling some sort of ministerial role (servers, readers, choir members, etc.) are fully participating in the Mass, while all other “normal” congregants get some sort of secondary experience. This is patently untrue.

This is very true. A lot of people have a completely warped view of what participation in the Mass entails.
Andreas Hofer:

Once this is understood, the “discrimination” argument carries considerably less weight.

This is where I disagree with you. Imagine a priest with a conservative white congregation, who he didn’t want to offend, so the priest forbade any blacks from taking lay liturgical roles in the Mass, especially if those roles were exercised inside the sanctuary. I hope you realize that this would be a horrific example of discrimination, in no way justified by the fact that the blacks in the congregation are still participating fully in the Mass.

Discrimination is wrong, because it is a grave offense to the equality of persons. The full participation in the Mass by the congregation can in no way justify the wrong of discrimination, whether it is racial discrimination or gender discrimination.

 

[Crusader]

Catholic2003:

See post #82.

Probably about as many as Pope John Paul II had when he wrote, **“As an expression of her mission the Church must stand firmly against all forms of discrimination and abuse of women.” **(Christifideles Laici).

Thankfully this does not translate into "priestly vocations will be harmed simply to placate sexist/feminists who place their own whims and desires ahead of the Church.

 

[Catholic2003]

Exporter:

It would be good for all of us if you come out and state your agenda. I know there is a small but diligent group who clamour for a Female Priesthood. How do you feel about women becoming Catholic Priests?

It is impossible for women to be priests. This is a matter of divine law, not discrimination. Perhaps more Catholics would understand and accept this if there weren’t so much blatant discrimination against women in the Church, e.g., all the resistance against female altar servers expressed here.

 

[Crusader]

Catholic2003:

This is very true. A lot of people have a completely warped view of what participation in the Mass entails.

This is where I disagree with you. Imagine a priest with a conservative white congregation, who he didn’t want to offend, so the priest forbade any blacks from taking lay liturgical roles in the Mass, especially if those roles were exercised inside the sanctuary. I hope you realize that this would be a horrific example of discrimination, in no way justified by the fact that the blacks in the congregation are still participating fully in the Mass.

Discrimination is wrong, because it is a grave offense to the equality of persons. The full participation in the Mass by the congregation can in no way justify the wrong of discrimination, whether it is racial discrimination or gender discrimination.

You tip your hand with the comment “**conservative white congregation.” **Plenty of racist liberals out there as well. Your agenda shines through loud and clear.

You also try to tie racism to your sexist/femist view of what should be allowed in the Church. It would be laughable if it were not so incongruent with the truth.

Rest assured that no matter how hard you attempt to push your sexist/feminist ideals, they will continue to be rject by those who place the Church ahead of themselves – even if popular (and septic) culture supports your view.

 

[Catholic2003]

Crusader:

Thankfully this does not translate into "priestly vocations will be harmed simply to placate sexist/feminists who place their own whims and desires ahead of the Church.

Some people consider social justice more than a mere “whim”.

 

[Crusader]

Catholic2003:

It is impossible for women to be priests. This is a matter of divine law, not discrimination. Perhaps more Catholics would understand and accept this if there weren’t so much blatant discrimination against women in the Church, e.g., all the resistance against female altar servers expressed here.

You simply fail to tell the truth. In all sincerity you appear to be driven by the ideals of sexism/feminism rather than by the Catholic Christian faith.

A strong prerference for the exclusive use of altar boys is based on fostering priestly/diaconate vocations and not sexual descrimination as you suggest.

It’s remarkable that someone would sacrifice priestly vocations for what they perceive as sexual equality. You seem to have a special fixation with women and sanctuary based ministries that boarders on the eerie.

Thankfully people with your viewpoint appear to be on the wane in the Church. The Holy Spirit at work, no doubt…