marian apparitions demonic?

[johnstown_johnn]

I personally don’t put much stock in apparations. I think some other Catholics (unintentionally) border on idol-worship regarding these apparations.

I truly believe if you ever have the opportunity to visit Lourdes you will have an epiphany. Heaven has touched down on that place. You can feel it in the depths of your soul. You may not "…put much stock in apparitiond… but Lourdes is a different story. Hope you are infused with the desire to make a pilgrimage to Lourdes one day. You’ll see for yourself…I did.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

I personally don’t put much stock in apparations. I think some other Catholics (unintentionally) border on idol-worship regarding these apparations.

I truly believe if you ever have the opportunity to visit Lourdes you will have an epiphany. Heaven has touched down on that place. You can feel it in the depths of your soul. You may not "…put much stock in apparitiond… but Lourdes is a different story. Hope you are infused with the desire to make a pilgrimage to Lourdes one day. You’ll see for yourself…I did.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

I personally don’t put much stock in apparations. I think some other Catholics (unintentionally) border on idol-worship regarding these apparations.

I truly believe if you ever have the opportunity to visit Lourdes you will have an epiphany. Heaven has touched down on that place. You can feel it in the depths of your soul. You may not "…put much stock in apparitiond… but Lourdes is a different story. Hope you are infused with the desire to make a pilgrimage to Lourdes one day. You’ll see for yourself…I did.

 

[EHRAM]

Protestants are heavily focussed on the Bible; it is their complete authority. There are no Marian apparitions in the Bible; therefore, a Protestant would automatically dismiss them, even if the apparition was accompanied with spectacular miracles and mass conversions. (.

Actually, in the book of Revelation, John sees a vision of the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven, and immediately afterwards a “woman clothed with the sun.” This passage can be interpreted as a form of Marian apparition, but many Protestants deny that the “woman clothed with the sun” refers to Mary, instead they say that the woman is a symbol of something, such as Israel.

 

[mangy_dog]

Actually, in the book of Revelation, John sees a vision of the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven, and immediately afterwards a “woman clothed with the sun.” This passage can be interpreted as a form of Marian apparition, but many Protestants deny that the “woman clothed with the sun” refers to Mary, instead they say that the woman is a symbol of something, such as Israel.

That’s because protestants are fundamentalist when it is convenient - when it is not convenient they say it’s “symbolic of”.

 

[Memaw]

my thoughts also. Why would Satan want to draw people closer to God?

There have been many so called marian apparitions that have been proven false and NOT coming from God, in fact the Bishop of Medjugorje has recently said it is not a true apparition and those that continue to push it are heretics. Bayside New York has been condemed by Church authorities, I talked about this with Fr. John Hardon, S.J. He spent many years studying that one. Fr. Hardon also told me then that Medjugorje would never be approved. He knew what he was talking about. Just recently an excommunication has been put against the so called Lady of All Nations. One needs to be VERY careful before accepting an apparition that has not yet been approved by the Church. It just doesn’t pay to jump out ahead of Church Authority in these matters. Very few have been found to be “worthy of belief.”
Yes Satan can and does use this to divide us. He is the Father of Lies

 

[Ron_Conte]

it discribes marian apparitions as demonic. I posted a comment that basically said that marian apparitions cannot be demonic because many of them produce miracles of healing and satan cannot perform miracles of healing or excorsism(think back to the bible when the phasasies called jesus demonic ) because “satan cannot drive out satan”

i also noted that the argument of “satan can appear as an angel of light” is not applicable to marian apparitions because mary is not an angel. are these good argument? what other arguments would you suggest to refute accusations like this?

Fallen angels can perform false miracles, using deception and their natural abilities as angels. As for healings, Scripture says:

“And I saw that one of its heads seemed to be slain unto death, but his deadly wound was healed. And the entire world was in wonder following the beast.” Rev 13:3

So fallen angels can perform healings, to a limited extent, using their natural abilities as angels. But these are not true miracles.

As for false marian apparitions, the Vatican has condemned a number of marian apparitions as false. The ArchBishop who excommunicated the claimed visionary Julia Kim (aka Julia Youn) not only determined that the apparitions were false, but also said that the signs and wonders associated with them were perhaps from preternatural sources (i.e. fallen angels).

“For there will arise false Christs and false prophets. And they will produce great signs and wonders, so much so as to lead into error even the elect (if this could be). Behold, I have warned you beforehand.” Matthew 24:24-25

 

[Memaw]

Fallen angels can perform false miracles, using deception and their natural abilities as angels. As for healings, Scripture says:

“And I saw that one of its heads seemed to be slain unto death, but his deadly wound was healed. And the entire world was in wonder following the beast.” Rev 13:3

So fallen angels can perform healings, to a limited extent, using their natural abilities as angels. But these are not true miracles.

As for false marian apparitions, the Vatican has condemned a number of marian apparitions as false. The ArchBishop who excommunicated the claimed visionary Julia Kim (aka Julia Youn) not only determined that the apparitions were false, but also said that the signs and wonders associated with them were perhaps from preternatural sources (i.e. fallen angels).

“For there will arise false Christs and false prophets. And they will produce great signs and wonders, so much so as to lead into error even the elect (if this could be). Behold, I have warned you beforehand.” Matthew 24:24-25

Thank you Ron, very well said.

 

[GreenLantern]

Yeah, I have too agree. Even the apparitions that are unapproved seem too draw people closer to God and more fully into a moral and devotional life. If this is Satan’s plan to steal our souls too hell, he needs better advisors.

Mark 3:22-27:

22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebub! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

 

[Memaw]

GreenLantern:
While it appears he, (the devil) is drawing you closer to God, in reality, he is actually drawing you away from the TRUTH and I have talked to many devotees of MedJugorje and there was NO reasoning with them. They had their minds made up and ,“not even the Church was going to change them.” Some had already made several trips over there and claimed to have seen, “miracles.”, their rosary turned to gold, host in the sun, etc, Not one of the rosaries were ever proven to be true gold. Fr,. Hardon said,"God doesn’t do phony “miacles.” One lady friend even offered to “pay” my way over there if I would go, but I wouldn’t. I said,"You can pay my way to Fatima iif you want, and she said, “NO, I don’t care about that one,” “That One” has been approved by the Church, visited by several Popes, and spoke of by Pope John Paul II on many occasions. He had received a true miracle, himself when She saved his life after being shot.but she didn’t care about that one. Thats division.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

As one who has been to Medjugorje twice, having spoken to the visionaries, having preached in St James at one of the English masses, I must admit that I disappointed with the Church not approving the apparitions. BUT, that is the Church’s job, not the job of Deacon Ed B. I found out about the non-approval when I was trying to put together another trip there and asked one of our local auxiliary bishops, whom I hold in very high esteem if he would like to go with us. He told me that while he would love to go, he could not and told me why. This caused me to do much research into this and the only thing I can say as one who is clergy, in obedience, I submit my will to my Holy Mother, the Church.

Did good things come out of this apparition. YES they did. God can use these occasions to draw good. He has used occasions throughout history to draw good out of evil. If you don’t believe this, just think of the great feast of Easter we just finished. God used the greatest evil ever perpetrated by man to draw the greatest good ever done for man. i.e., Crucifixion/Redemption. This is a loving God looking out for his children whom he loves. If the church ever does approve it, I will be one of the first to return, if I am still alive. If it does not, IN OBEDIENCE I will not go back,.
Deacocn Ed B

 

[CathFaith1]

Deacon, a lot of what you stated reminded me of the wisdom that just flowed from the Book ‘Authenticity’ (by Fr Thomas Dubay).

Especially reflected in your statement,

This caused me to do much research into this and the only thing I can say as one who is clergy, in obedience, I submit my will to my Holy Mother, the Church.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Deacon, a lot of what you stated reminded me of the wisdom that just flowed from the Book ‘Authenticity’ (by Fr Thomas Dubay).

:

Funny you should mention him, he was my philosophy professor in the 60’s and taught Theodocy (the science of prayer and spirituality).to my class as well. He is an extremely brilliant man.
Deacon Ed B

 

[DawnInTexas]

If , by overwhelming force of arms, an anti-Christian group breaced St. Peter’s Basilica and all the Chuch buildings all over the world while the pope escaped to exile…The Church is where the pope is.

This is so. The Apostles, after Pentecost, didn’t have the “Vatican,” but set off in different directions…Peter being in charge of the others.

The Church IS where the Pope is.

 

[kentuckyliz]

Fr Benedict Groeschel’s book, A Still Small Voice, is a really good book on the subject. The church is very skeptical of claims of apparitions and locutions and submits the apparitionists/locutionists to tests and spiritual direction. OBEDIENCE is huge!!! Disobedience is the mark of a false vision/locution.

Fruits in the life are important too. Many earlier visionaries were professed religious or entered religious life. Nowadays it’s Armani suits and traveling and enriching one’s family (thinking of a particular so-called visionary on the conference circuit).

Re: earlier post on the death of children (like the young Fatima seers)…um, this life isn’t the ultimate. Heaven is. The older I get, the more eager I get for heaven. Perhaps the children having seen heaven were more eager than what age taught me. Non-believers view death as a tragedy because this life is all there is. Believers, me included, know we’re only passin’ through!!! I’m not restless or in a rush or doing nutty things because I have a whole eternity ahead of me. This life is good but not good enough!

Suffering is bad to non-believers because it’s meaningless. However, suffering is POWERFUL as intercessory prayer for the building up of the church. Colossians 1:24. Consecrate it and offer it up! I was blessed to know about the gospel of suffering before I had to go through some really sucky suffering this whole last year, and I had a prayer intentions journal and turned it into an act of charity…and doing so gave me great joy and peace.

The wisdom of Christ is upside down to the “wisdom” of the world. The “wisdom” of the world is sheer insanity according to the way of God. Thinking children should never suffer or die or that it is evil and a horrible waste…shows that there is a lack of understanding here…pray for faith and wisdom to see it. And be careful of what you pray for, sometimes God answers with life experiences…yikes.

Praying rosaries or anything else as intercessory prayer for others is a spiritual act of mercy and very worthwhile. It is completing what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings for the sake of his body, the church. (Col 1:24 again) Why is praying many rosaries suffering? Cmon, wouldn’t the children rather have been doing other things?

God is so good to allow us to assist each other in charity and that includes the spiritual works of mercy as well as the corporal.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Fr Benedict Groeschel’s book, A Still Small Voice, is a really good book on the subject. The church is very skeptical of claims of apparitions and locutions and submits the apparitionists/locutionists to tests and spiritual direction. OBEDIENCE is huge!!! Disobedience is the mark of a false vision/locution.

Have you noticed how so many who post in the forum say that “blind obedience” is a mark of a weak mind. Yes, obedience to Holy Mother Church is of prime importance.

Suffering is bad to non-believers because it’s meaningless. However, suffering is POWERFUL as intercessory prayer for the building up of the church.

If people would only stop and think. Suffering is the redemptive prayer of Jesus on the Cross. As you said, for those who do not believe, it is totally stupid. Whenever I am talking to anyone who is suffering, or who is to undergo some medical procedure, I always tell them to offer it up to God It usually raises questions as to why. This is a perfect time to explain the redemptive prayer of suffering on the cross.

Praying rosaries or anything else as intercessory prayer for others is a spiritual act of mercy and very worthwhile. It is completing what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings for the sake of his body, the church. (Col 1:24 again) Why is praying many rosaries suffering? Cmon, wouldn’t the children rather have been doing other things?

God is so good to allow us to assist each other in charity and that includes the spiritual works of mercy as well as the corporal.

Again, excellent observations. So simple, yet so difficult for so many. And the answer to that? Why - prayer of course…
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Memaw]

Have you noticed how so many who post in the forum say that “blind obedience” is a mark of a weak mind. Yes, obedience to Holy Mother Church is of prime importance.

If people would only stop and think. Suffering is the redemptive prayer of Jesus on the Cross. As you said, for those who do not believe, it is totally stupid. Whenever I am talking to anyone who is suffering, or who is to undergo some medical procedure, I always tell them to offer it up to God It usually raises questions as to why. This is a perfect time to explain the redemptive prayer of suffering on the cross.

Again, excellent observations. So simple, yet so difficult for so many. And the answer to that? Why - prayer of course…
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

Blind obedience is better than no obedience but informed obedience is far greater.

 

[DawnInTexas]

Fr Benedict Groeschel’s book, A Still Small Voice, is a really good book on the subject. The church is very skeptical of claims of apparitions and locutions and submits the apparitionists/locutionists to tests and spiritual direction. OBEDIENCE is huge!!! Disobedience is the mark of a false vision/locution.

Fruits in the life are important too. Many earlier visionaries were professed religious or entered religious life. Nowadays it’s Armani suits and traveling and enriching one’s family (thinking of a particular so-called visionary on the conference circuit).

Re: earlier post on the death of children (like the young Fatima seers)…um, this life isn’t the ultimate. Heaven is. The older I get, the more eager I get for heaven. Perhaps the children having seen heaven were more eager than what age taught me. Non-believers view death as a tragedy because this life is all there is. Believers, me included, know we’re only passin’ through!!! I’m not restless or in a rush or doing nutty things because I have a whole eternity ahead of me. This life is good but not good enough!

Suffering is bad to non-believers because it’s meaningless. However, suffering is POWERFUL as intercessory prayer for the building up of the church. Colossians 1:24. Consecrate it and offer it up! I was blessed to know about the gospel of suffering before I had to go through some really sucky suffering this whole last year, and I had a prayer intentions journal and turned it into an act of charity…and doing so gave me great joy and peace.

The wisdom of Christ is upside down to the “wisdom” of the world. The “wisdom” of the world is sheer insanity according to the way of God. Thinking children should never suffer or die or that it is evil and a horrible waste…shows that there is a lack of understanding here…pray for faith and wisdom to see it. And be careful of what you pray for, sometimes God answers with life experiences…yikes.

Praying rosaries or anything else as intercessory prayer for others is a spiritual act of mercy and very worthwhile. It is completing what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings for the sake of his body, the church. (Col 1:24 again) Why is praying many rosaries suffering? Cmon, wouldn’t the children rather have been doing other things?

God is so good to allow us to assist each other in charity and that includes the spiritual works of mercy as well as the corporal.

You quote Fr. Benedict Groeschel’s book, then you write about the Armani suits.

Are those HIS words? Or YOURS?

Please, make the distinction. It looks to me that you start your post, using him as an authority, and inject the rest, that I just cannot hear coming out of his mouth.

Are you one of those who go around condemning Medjugorje? Are you one of those who go around saying the Church has already done so? I have run into your kind here (on the Web) already. You’re not the only one.

Armani Suits? Ever been to Europe? Over the pond, they don’t have closets stuffed full of clothes to wear a different outfit every day in the month or more. Europeans will have 5 good suits. One for every day of the work week. They are good clothes, and they take care of them, and they last years.

When it comes to driving BMW’s, which I’ve read those dissing a Medjugorje purported visionary for driving, I have to laugh! he he he…I could tell they’d never been to Europe. What do they think they drive in Yugoslavia? Chevy’s and Ford’s? lol!

One needs to only take a spiritual journey there to know that they do not live a lavish lifestyle.

We are in the period of “The Laity.” Haven’t you heard?

Watch just whom and what you attack, if the Church itself has not passed judgment. Until that time, remain faithful to Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[DawnInTexas]

There have been many so called marian apparitions that have been proven false and NOT coming from God, in fact the Bishop of Medjugorje has recently said it is not a true apparition and those that continue to push it are heretics. Bayside New York has been condemed by Church authorities, I talked about this with Fr. John Hardon, S.J. He spent many years studying that one. Fr. Hardon also told me then that Medjugorje would never be approved. He knew what he was talking about. Just recently an excommunication has been put against the so called Lady of All Nations. One needs to be VERY careful before accepting an apparition that has not yet been approved by the Church. It just doesn’t pay to jump out ahead of Church Authority in these matters. Very few have been found to be “worthy of belief.”
Yes Satan can and does use this to divide us. He is the Father of Lies

State your source, Ma’am.

You are either very misled, or are a troublemaker.

ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=70831
NEW CHURCH COMMISSION TO STUDY MEDJUGORJE

For everyone else, leave it up to God and His Church. And when someone says “such and such,” make sure you check it out, and question it yourself, if it doesn’t sound right.

MeMaw…watch what comes out of your mouth. If it is not the truth, the damage you have done could have devastating effects. Then, to repair such damage! Ay! Yi Yi!

 

[DawnInTexas]

While it appears he, (the devil) is drawing you closer to God, in reality, he is actually drawing you away from the TRUTH and I have talked to many devotees of MedJugorje and there was NO reasoning with them. They had their minds made up and ,“not even the Church was going to change them.” Some had already made several trips over there and claimed to have seen, “miracles.”, their rosary turned to gold, host in the sun, etc, Not one of the rosaries were ever proven to be true gold. Fr,. Hardon said,"God doesn’t do phony “miacles.” One lady friend even offered to “pay” my way over there if I would go, but I wouldn’t. I said,"You can pay my way to Fatima iif you want, and she said, “NO, I don’t care about that one,” “That One” has been approved by the Church, visited by several Popes, and spoke of by Pope John Paul II on many occasions. He had received a true miracle, himself when She saved his life after being shot.but she didn’t care about that one. Thats division.

I have a rosary that changed to “gold color.” Actually I have 2, one I buried in the hands of my mother. I’ve never been to Medjugorje, but I believe the Mother of God is appearing there. So do several priests I know and Bishops who’ve journeyed there. 'Never been there myself, and my life is changed for the better because of Medjugorje.

You don’t need to go to Medjugorje for a rosary to change. Try praying the Rosary every day. One of the promises is “Signal Graces.” My Rosaries were signals.

Is mine “true gold” like you write? Who cares! They are brilliantly yellow! Actually, I can pull a bead back, and see underneath that it is still silver-toned. So, the brilliant gold color is like it has been applied!

They are “brilliant” gold colored.

---

Thank you, Holy Mother, for my Signal Graces. I Love you.***

MeMaw…why all the anger?