Marriage in 2009? What is going on!

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I wonder, too, whether somehow marriageable people think of marriage solely in terms of romance and sex, when rearing children is fundamental to marriage. Recognizing that some cannot have children for physical reasons, still, there is adoption. Companionship with a like-spirited person is not necessarily the most compelling motivation, since there may be a great number of others who could fill that role. No one, however, can properly fill the role of one’s children except one’s children.

It is often thought to be unworthy to “stay together for the sake of the children”. But it seems possible to me that such a motivation might cause one to redouble one’s efforts to make the relationship work; perhaps shedding some personal goals in the process.

When natural-born American citizens average, what is it? 1.6 children per couple, one has to seriously question the level of commitment many people contemplating marriage really have to it.
While I see what you mean by this, there are some things to take in consideration. First, as whatevergirl mentioned, you really can’t judge the quality of a marriage by the number of children or lack of children the couple has, unless you really know the couple intimately enough to see why they haven’t got any children. It’s very hurtful for couples who are trying for children and then have people judge them because they don’t have any or have less than what the other people think they should have.

Second, if you have ever tried or have known people who have gone through the adoption process, it is not easy and can be very painful. It can take years to be able to adopt one child. Some may never have a chance to do that. Also, some are not called to adopt even though they want their own natural children. Some people just don’t have the same connection to an adopted child as they would to their own and I believe God would let them know after prayer that adoption wasn’t their calling and to accept what He has in store for them.

Third, as people get married and start having children later in life, women’s fertility decrease. When they could have gotten pregnant very easily between 13-25, as they get older, getting pregnant is much more difficult. They don’t have as many eggs to fertilize, and almost half of early pregnancies actually do end in miscarriage, many times without the woman knowing she is pregnant yet. I don’t think the answer is to make sure women get married younger, because I don’t believe I’d want to force any young woman or man to marry when they aren’t ready for it. Also, some people do not find a “mate” until many years down the line.

Ideally, one would hope that couples could put their own goals aside to make the marriage work for their children. That doesn’t always happen, though, which is unfortunate and sometimes tragic. What I have seen a lot of in my own generation are parents who stayed together until the children grew up and were on their own and then suddenly, they announce that they are getting divorced. The parents seemed to think that doing it this way was best so that they had an unbroken family unit while the children grew. And then since they were young adults, they could handle the divorce better. While that may be the case, I think it could cause their children to question their own confidence in staying in a successful marriage. Although, some of my friends have told me that their parents should have divorced years earlier, because being together made their own lives completely miserable and made them think marriage was a horrible institution.

All that, there is still a very serious problem with commitment and it is something that should be addressed more often in our religious institutions at mass or services, etc. I really don’t hear enough of it at mass. We’re really not going to get it in the secular world.
 
I’m not going to disagree entirely that marriage is work.

However, am I alone in the idea that if you do a lot of work selecting your spouse, the marriage is less work?

DH and I celebrate our 10th anniversary in July this year…and I have been reflecting on the last 10 years and while I would say bearing and rearing the children have sometimes felt like “work” and making decisions to expand the family or not have sometimes felt like “work”…I haven’t felt (yet) that I have really had to “work” on my marriage…maybe it’s just me. 🤷😊

Or maybe those things I described are one-and-the-same with marriage…that’s probably it.

I don’t disagree with you either. 😃 Picking wisely will lessen the work…but often times, when I say work…it’s work on ourselves, not in the marriage.:o I came to marriage thinking my husband was somehow going to erase the pains of my childhood (losing my parents) and he couldn’t. No one can erase what happened. Since I thought of my husband in the wrong way, our marriage suffered at times. Now, years later…I’ve recovered from that, pray fervently, and my husband and I view our marriage as one…and I have a healthy view of what a husband should be–I cling to God for how I see things now. But, that is more of what I mean…if we look to marriage to resolve unresolved things from our pasts, which MANY people do…we will not have a content marriage. That’s more of what I meant. Women especially do this…look for a white knight to rescue them from their current lives or their pasts…

For many people in general, they look to marriage as something it was never designed to be by God…that is a huge reason for divorce. Therapists are busy in our country for a reason. :o I also believe that people do not include God in their decision making…I did, and so I truly believe God wanted me to marry my husband…too many things fell into place…we ‘accidentally’ met…it was meant to be.

Ridgerunner–I see your points. I am not sure what having less than 3 kids has to do with higher rates of divorce, which is the topic of the thread. :confused:***
 
That is actually not a result of \“moving forward in time\”. It is a result of permission and expectation. People can act like immature 12-year-olds at 22, so they do. They are not expected to behave as adults, so they do not.

It is not necessary; it is not a result of \“moving forward in time\”.

I know that when I got married at 22, I was the oldest one in my family to marry. My sisters were 20 and 19, respectively. Oh, and 12 years later (10 for the 19 year old), we\'re all still married. We were raised to take responsibility for our actions, including the act of marrying. My husband and I are doing the same for our children. At 10, my eldest daughter is more mature than many of my friends at 30+. Of course, she is not planning to marry. For two years now she has been talking about her call to the religious life. 😉
Brilliant post. This society allows its 20-somethings to act like feckless teenagers, and so they do.

Our grandparents were fighting a world war, starting families, and building this country into what it is in their 20s.

I think, given the right preparation, plenty of people could be ready to marry way before 30. Besides, waiting until after 30 increases your risk of facing infertility problems should you want to have children with your spouse. Fertility begins to decline as early as your early 30s, and by 35 is down more than half from your peak. For women anyway.
 
What was the cause for divorce? The woman cut her hair shorter without asking her husband’s opinion?

I HAD to…I just couldn’t resist…

Forgive me, chev. :bowdown2:

:rotfl:


***Seriously, how did it go? ***
I had to play the guy’s part. It was a loose Christian who wanted to have the two boys for Christmas because he would take them to grandparents and to church as well. The mother was a Buddhist but didn’t want to let go of Christmas because of whatever social stuff making it important for her. I had to agree to a split between the Christmas Day and Boxing Day on a rotational basis (i.e. each parent getting one of these days every year but taking turns as to which day) but pulled Easter out of the Buddhist woman (as in kids always with the father for Easter, every year) without telling her the religious importance of Christmas outranked Easter, so I didn’t have to make any additional concessions.

Another reason that I’m gonna think twice if ever am to marry. I don’t want the hassle of divorce, I don’t want to let go of my own children, I don’t want to be stuck unable to marry another woman while the one I married goes off with some other guy. I don’t want to put up with ABC and pro-choice sentiments, I just don’t care for any of that stuff. Welcome, Science, will you marry me? I’ll probably buy a ring after getting my Ph.D.
 
I think, given the right preparation, plenty of people could be ready to marry way before 30. Besides, waiting until after 30 increases your risk of facing infertility problems should you want to have children with your spouse. Fertility begins to decline as early as your early 30s, and by 35 is down more than half from your peak. For women anyway.
Not only that, but those who wait into their 30s tend to solidify selfish behavior because they are often responsible only for themselves. This is not to say that people can not have faithful and fruitful marriages which begin in their 30s and beyond, but the longer one becomes accustomed to doing what makes himself happy, the harder it will be for him to sacrifice of himself for the good of his spouse. There was a good article in Faith and Family this month talking about this.

(Use of the male pronoun above is for convenience only and not intended to limit discussion to male or female)

That said, Jesus married at age 33 (to His Church) 🙂

Andre
 
Another reason that I’m gonna think twice if ever am to marry. I don’t want the hassle of divorce, I don’t want to let go of my own children, I don’t want to be stuck unable to marry another woman while the one I married goes off with some other guy. I don’t want to put up with ABC and pro-choice sentiments, I just don’t care for any of that stuff. Welcome, Science, will you marry me? I’ll probably buy a ring after getting my Ph.D.
Maybe pray twice instead…God will lead you to your vocation. No one can tell the future, but choose your spouse wisely, and many of those concerns disappear.

Andre
 
ironband is right. CHOOSE WISELY! It saves a lot of heartache in the end.

chevalier, I recommend reading The Ten Stupid Things Men Do To Mess Up Their Lives by Dr. Laura. Regardless of what you think of her, that book will help you avoid many pitfalls and give you some good discernment tools for choosing dating partners, and eventually a spouse, wisely.

I plan to make it required reading for my sons, and ditto for her book for women for my daughters.
 
Not only that, but those who wait into their 30s tend to solidify selfish behavior because they are often responsible only for themselves. This is not to say that people can not have faithful and fruitful marriages which begin in their 30s and beyond, but the longer one becomes accustomed to doing what makes himself happy, the harder it will be for him to sacrifice of himself for the good of his spouse. There was a good article in Faith and Family this month talking about this.

Andre
I think there is some truth in that. Of course, it does go by a case by case basis. I think it just takes longer to break and is harder to break that habit of only thinking for yourself. When you’re younger, you’re just not as set in your ways and you learn how to work with each other. My husband and I married, I always thought, at a good age. Although my one grandmother thought I was way too young when I announced my engagement at 24. This was coming from a woman who married at 14 and had 10 kids. 😛 We’ve only been married 5 years, but being with him and he with me have taught us so much about ourselves as people and about real love and commitment.

The problems encountered by people who marry later are also actually not always about selfish behaviour. Most of my older, single friends and family aren’t selfish. They are very giving and unselfish, in fact, because they have much more time and money to spread and give to others. I think it is more about just being set in different habits which you have to learn to tweak when you begin to share your life with another. It’s just a little harder to adapt.
 
***chev, you might not be called to marriage. I agree with the poster who suggests to pray about it. Go into marriage thinking it will be temporary, and it will be. 😉 Trust in God, as you do for other things in life, and He will lead you to the right vocation, whether single or married. ***
 
You don’t really know me if you think I’m not beyond the most basic mistakes. 😉 The sad observation is that people change. How many people are Catholic? How many Catholics are practicing? How many practicing Catholics do really abstain from sex and not use ABC? Of those how many are stable enough even to give the impression they won’t change a year or two into it? Wow… That’s like finding a needle in a haystack. Can be done but the amount of time invested in it plus the risk of change make it look like I might as well just spawn law course books until I die and have a very fulfilling life that way. And yeah, that might be lack of calling. I’m not selfless enough to take the risk of the aforementioned happening to me. I’d need to meet a very, very special person and be very powerfully convinced. This means I probably have unrealistic expectations, which is a prime example of lack of calling.
 
I have to point out on the flip side, if you do marry young, you can also grow in your ways towards similar goals and traits entirely because you are together. However, I have taken note reading something about how the best long term marriages, each side was allowed to be themselves and have their own individual time to pursue their dreams and aspirations. I think a big part of what that’s saying, letting your partner do what they desire, supporting them in what ever they do avoids thoughts of thinking that you are being held back, being in that marriage in the first place.

I like the posts about being careful as to who you choose to commit to, this is a wise way to go about it. This is also one of the reasons I ask these gals about their past, I want to know if they have what it takes, or if they don’t take it as seriously as it should be. I also consider it mandatory that my future miss right keeps God at the central focus of her life. The latter is indeed a high expectation, but a couple that keeps their focus on him and do so genuinly, insures their bond will remain steadfast. I guess it’s more like the two who are now joined as one, continue to glorify him as they did before, and hopefully with the combined effort, even more so.
 
*Welcome to the world of people, chev. People change. People disappoint. But, your books won’t love you, or offer you tea when you’re sick, or give you a hand when you are down. Just keep praying about it. But, there are no guarantees in this life. You could marry a woman who you think is the best thing to ever happen to you, and 10 years into it, she ‘changes,’ and decides she doesn’t love you anymore. Yes, it happens. It’s happening right now to my 31 yr old nephew. She really changed. 😦

The one thing about marriage is this…it is often unpredictable. If you are a man who likes guarantees, marriage might be a tough one for you. People make mistakes and they change…and if you love the woman, you will help her overcome her problems, and will help her get to heaven. She will do the same for you, believe that. Believe in the good in people…that there are good women out there, who won’t hurt you, or turn against the Church. Believe.*
 
I have to point out on the flip side, if you do marry young, you can also grow in your ways towards similar goals and traits entirely because you are together. However, I have taken note reading something about how the best long term marriages, each side was allowed to be themselves and have their own individual time to pursue their dreams and aspirations. I think a big part of what that’s saying, letting your partner do what they desire, supporting them in what ever they do avoids thoughts of thinking that you are being held back, being in that marriage in the first place.
Yeah, that’s very important and it’s extremely good for you if you manage to pull it off.
 
Welcome to the world of people, chev. People change. People disappoint. But, your books won’t love you, or offer you tea when you’re sick, or give you a hand when you are down. Just keep praying about it. But, there are no guarantees in this life. You could marry a woman who you think is the best thing to ever happen to you, and 10 years into it, she ‘changes,’ and decides she doesn’t love you anymore. Yes, it happens. It’s happening right now to my 31 yr old nephew. She really changed. 😦
**
I lost count after some 30-40 could-have-beens. I know something about people changing. I get a lot of thrill from feeling that my mind’s working to its limits and there are few things as satisfying as throwing out some big litigation or coding a whole web portal overnight on your own. Unhappy relationships only weigh you down in such cases and you can’t be yourself because you’re being pinned down to the ground itself by that stupid situation you’re in. As far as dating goes, you can call me Skipper and that’s nothing to do with ships.
The one thing about marriage is this…it is often unpredictable. If you are a man who likes guarantees, marriage might be a tough one for you. People make mistakes and they change…and if you love the woman, you will help her overcome her problems, and will help her get to heaven. She will do the same for you, believe that. Believe in the good in people…that there are good women out there, who won’t hurt you, or turn against the Church. Believe.
I wrote my thesis on the benefit of doubt and that’s the area I’m doing my Ph.D. in right now. As much as I firmly believe in those principles, I’m not gonna bet my future on them. As much as I wouldn’t be worth my criminal law degree if I blamed the species for even multiple specimens’ faults, the inference from even merely looking around is fairly simple. If you’re sane, you aren’t a 50/50 compromiser, aren’t politically liberal and ethically rights-based, you’re just not gonna have it with people, no matter what your people skills are. Most people just can’t navigate an ethical system that is not based on individual rights, most people don’t care to create value instead of splitting the cake, they think an inch more for you is an inch less for them, they’re indoctrinated with political correctness and corporate propaganda. Sigh. Just why don’t I have the health to join the army?
 
Call it a cliche, but when you meet ‘thee one’ you will know, and you will have the health for it. You haven’t met the right woman yet…someday…SOOOOOOMMEEEEDAY, chev.
 
Call it a cliche, but when you meet ‘thee one’ you will know, and you will have the health for it. You haven’t met the right woman yet…someday…SOOOOOOMMEEEEDAY, chev.
And God puts them in your life at the right time. For some of us it’s when we are young. I married at 19. I’ve said to my husband many times, I don’t know what would have happened to me if I hadn’t met him when I did! I had a mess at home and had been in an abusive dating relationship. I didn’t know if I was coming or going. And into my life comes this beautiful man. Full of faith and love. And I knew, he was the one. We were engaged two months later, I was 18 and a senior in high school and we married June of 1995. Have with both changed? Yes we have, but we have changed for the better. We have grown together…I guess some would say we have grown up together, but if you really believe in your relationship and love your husband/wife, the changes are good ones. The love you feel makes it easy to put them first. I wouldn’t call it work, there are some days when we are not easy to live with, but everyone is like that, no one is perfect. It’s loving the person with their imperfections that makes a marriage work. Not trying to change who they really are or make them into someone they are not. It’s hard to put into words…sorry. I have such love and respect for my husband. He is such a gift from God and I’m so very thankful for him. He’s just awesome!
 
Call it a cliche, but when you meet ‘thee one’ you will know, and you will have the health for it. You haven’t met the right woman yet…someday…SOOOOOOMMEEEEDAY, chev.
So true… There were so many things that happened to my husband and I to be just coincidences. I truly believe it was God making things happen and that little tug on the heart for both us, telling us that He was blessing us with each other.

Whatevergirl is right, chevalier. She gave you some really good wisdom. 🙂
 
While I see what you mean by this, there are some things to take in consideration. First, as whatevergirl mentioned, you really can’t judge the quality of a marriage by the number of children or lack of children the couple has, unless you really know the couple intimately enough to see why they haven’t got any children. It’s very hurtful for couples who are trying for children and then have people judge them because they don’t have any or have less than what the other people think they should have. ** Nor did I purport to judge her or anyone in particular. I will still say, however, that a society that will not have sufficient children to maintain itself has something wrong with it, and that “something wrong” may well manifest itself in other ways.**

Second, if you have ever tried or have known people who have gone through the adoption process, it is not easy and can be very painful. It can take years to be able to adopt one child. Some may never have a chance to do that. Also, some are not called to adopt even though they want their own natural children. Some people just don’t have the same connection to an adopted child as they would to their own and I believe God would let them know after prayer that adoption wasn’t their calling and to accept what He has in store for them. ** I am absolutely familiar with the adoption process. It can be painful and it can be easy. One of the things that has been very wrong in this society has been the difficulty in terminating the rights of awful parents. I will say, however, that in my state, at least, it has become easier in recent years. **

Third, as people get married and start having children later in life, women’s fertility decrease. When they could have gotten pregnant very easily between 13-25, as they get older, getting pregnant is much more difficult. They don’t have as many eggs to fertilize, and almost half of early pregnancies actually do end in miscarriage, many times without the woman knowing she is pregnant yet. I don’t think the answer is to make sure women get married younger, because I don’t believe I’d want to force any young woman or man to marry when they aren’t ready for it. Also, some people do not find a “mate” until many years down the line. ** Yes, of course. But again, does this point us to anything, when peoples’ natural capabilities and their inclinations get “out of sync”?**

Ideally, one would hope that couples could put their own goals aside to make the marriage work for their children. That doesn’t always happen, though, which is unfortunate and sometimes tragic. What I have seen a lot of in my own generation are parents who stayed together until the children grew up and were on their own and then suddenly, they announce that they are getting divorced. The parents seemed to think that doing it this way was best so that they had an unbroken family unit while the children grew. And then since they were young adults, they could handle the divorce better. While that may be the case, I think it could cause their children to question their own confidence in staying in a successful marriage. Although, some of my friends have told me that their parents should have divorced years earlier, because being together made their own lives completely miserable and made them think marriage was a horrible institution.

All that, there is still a very serious problem with commitment and it is something that should be addressed more often in our religious institutions at mass or services, etc. I really don’t hear enough of it at mass. Absolutely your best point. We’re really not going to get it in the secular world.
 
Nor did I purport to judge her or anyone in particular. I will still say, however, that a society that will not have sufficient children to maintain itself has something wrong with it, and that “something wrong” may well manifest itself in other ways.
I actually didn’t think you were judging Whatevergirl. In your original post, it appeared that you were making a judgement call on the quality of a marriage based on the number of or the lack of children and those who do not adopt children if they can’t have them naturally. I understand more at what you are trying to get at from your clarification in this post, so thank you for clarifying. I do agree with your sentiments in the above regard.
I am absolutely familiar with the adoption process. It can be painful and it can be easy.** One of the things that has been very wrong in this society has been the difficulty in terminating the rights of awful parents.** I will say, however, that in my state, at least, it has become easier in recent years.
That is so true. My husband and I attended university in the city, surrounded by very impoverished and crime-ridden area. Our Newman Center and other campus ministries did a lot of work for the community there, especially for the children. There were some very caring parents, but then you saw some horrible, abusive parents. Once when my husband was tutoring kids at the local public school, the mother of a child who was acting up in class was called in. She burst into the classroom, screaming at the child and then dragged him out of the room and you could hear her beating him and him crying. It happened so quickly that the teacher and the others hardly had time to respond. They stopped her, but this was the kind of thing you saw around there.

I guess it is so difficult to make laws like this because you don’t want the government to be too involved. There is a definite balancing act and it always seems that when one law is made, more are just tacked onto so as to take away good people’s regular freedoms and liberties. At the same time, we can’t let parents continue to abuse their own children.
I don’t have an answer to this.
 
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