Marriage Issue - Lost and Confused

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So maybe I am wrong, but it doesn’t seem like someone who is divorced (especially someone who seems to be so jaded by the divorce) would make a great marriage counselor. I think to be a good marriage counselor you got to know a little about marriage, it doesn’t seem that she does.
 
So maybe I am wrong, but it doesn’t seem like someone who is divorced (especially someone who seems to be so jaded by the divorce) would make a great marriage counselor. I think to be a good marriage counselor you got to know a little about marriage, it doesn’t seem that she does.
I used to feel the same way, however I’m not sure about just how angry her ex was. It’s possible that he may have been abusive and she did say that he refused to go to counseling. I don’t ask her for the details of her divorce because I really don’t want to know. I do think that since she’s had relationship issues, she realizes that marriage isn’t always happy.

As far as being friends after divorce, dh said that in the worst case scenario we would be spend our time co-parenting together with the kids. I said that I felt he was glorifying divorce if he thinks we can all spend time together happily after divorce. She said that she believes it’s possible to be good co-parents. I said that I didn’t think I would be able to do that and dh seems to act like I’m the “bad guy” for not wanting a close friendship. He sees so much fighting between co-parents and believes that it doesn’t have to be that way. Of course, he has no experience with real life co-parenting so he can assume that we would always be friendly and do holidays and kid activities together.
 
Your husband is right, that is not the way parenting has to be, but divorce is not the way it has to be either. You and I both have very stubborn set in their own way husbands, and I hope time will change both of them. Divorce is a terrible thing and it tears familis apart and makes people behave in a manner that they wouldn’t normally. I wish people contemplating divorce would just suck it up and stick through the difficult times because I am sure it is better for everyone in the long run
 
Your husband is right, that is not the way parenting has to be, but divorce is not the way it has to be either. You and I both have very stubborn set in their own way husbands, and I hope time will change both of them. Divorce is a terrible thing and it tears familis apart and makes people behave in a manner that they wouldn’t normally. I wish people contemplating divorce would just suck it up and stick through the difficult times because I am sure it is better for everyone in the long run
 
Bernadettefaith said:

“I think he has a lot on his mind that he needs to get out there but I hate how each session becomes a chance for him to complain about the same thing every week. It just doesn’t seem productive.”

Your counselor should not allow him to do that in your couple sessions and you should tell her so.

By the way, obsessive, repetitive negative thoughts that don’t make a lot of rational sense is a depression symptom. You should tell her that, too.

“During my individual sessions, we talk about how there might be more going on, like PTSD from work stress. That’s totally possible. As much as he insists that I’m the scariest, craziest person he’s ever encountered I know that’s not true.”

I have a comparison that may help you.

I have a sometimes very difficult oldest child. On her bad days, she would rage and tell me I’m the meanest mommy ever and she hates me. The reason she did that with me and not with other people is paradoxically because she feels safe with me. Your husband probably has to swallow a lot of negative feelings and stress at work, and then he comes home and “tantrums” with you, because you are safe and he trusts you, just like my kid might tantrum after school. I would mention this possibility to your counselor in your individual session.

“As far as being friends after divorce, dh said that in the worst case scenario we would be spend our time co-parenting together with the kids.”

No way.

You can explain it to him so he understands if he brings this up again, “If you break my heart, I’m not going to have you around all the time hurting me more. I don’t need that and it wouldn’t be fair to me. I would have to move on and I wouldn’t be able to continue having my life revolve around you.” I wouldn’t say it unless he brought it up the happy fun BFF divorce scenario again, of course. For one thing, you’d be working all the time, so you wouldn’t be available to hang out with him and the kids.

I think he’s hoping to have all the best aspects of being married to you, none of the bad stuff, plus a fun new girlfriend. No way!
 
Bernadettefaith said:

“I think he has a lot on his mind that he needs to get out there but I hate how each session becomes a chance for him to complain about the same thing every week. It just doesn’t seem productive.”

Your counselor should not allow him to do that in your couple sessions and you should tell her so.

By the way, obsessive, repetitive negative thoughts that don’t make a lot of rational sense is a depression symptom. You should tell her that, too.

“During my individual sessions, we talk about how there might be more going on, like PTSD from work stress. That’s totally possible. As much as he insists that I’m the scariest, craziest person he’s ever encountered I know that’s not true.”

I have a comparison that may help you.

I have a sometimes very difficult oldest child. On her bad days, she would rage and tell me I’m the meanest mommy ever and she hates me. The reason she did that with me and not with other people is paradoxically because she feels safe with me. Your husband probably has to swallow a lot of negative feelings and stress at work, and then he comes home and “tantrums” with you, because you are safe and he trusts you, just like my kid might tantrum after school. I would mention this possibility to your counselor in your individual session.

“As far as being friends after divorce, dh said that in the worst case scenario we would be spend our time co-parenting together with the kids.”

No way.

You can explain it to him so he understands if he brings this up again, “If you break my heart, I’m not going to have you around all the time hurting me more. I don’t need that and it wouldn’t be fair to me. I would have to move on and I wouldn’t be able to continue having my life revolve around you.” I wouldn’t say it unless he brought it up the happy fun BFF divorce scenario again, of course. For one thing, you’d be working all the time, so you wouldn’t be available to hang out with him and the kids.

I think he’s hoping to have all the best aspects of being married to you, none of the bad stuff, plus a fun new girlfriend. No way!
That example makes sense. The counselor said that she believed work stress may have something to do with this. I hope so because I hate to think that I alone cause him that much anxiety, even when I’m not doing anything.
 
When I tell him that divorced couples celebrating all holidays and special occasions together is unrealistic, he generally says that I can’t expect him to stick around forever if we can’t get along well enough to spend time together. I’d assume that the marital issues would get better with time while the divorce would make things worse between us.
 
When I tell him that divorced couples celebrating all holidays and special occasions together is unrealistic, he generally says that I can’t expect him to stick around forever if we can’t get along well enough to spend time together. I’d assume that the marital issues would get better with time while the divorce would make things worse between us.
Tell him that
 
Tell him that
I’ve tried but he’s not optimistic. I think that even when he leans toward staying, he believes that it won’t get better.

I read somewhere that we cannot imagine feeling anything other than our current state. Just like on our wedding day, I’m sure neither of us saw this coming. So right now he can’t imagine that it would get better.
 
I’ve tried but he’s not optimistic. I think that even when he leans toward staying, he believes that it won’t get better.

I read somewhere that we cannot imagine feeling anything other than our current state. Just like on our wedding day, I’m sure neither of us saw this coming. So right now he can’t imagine that it would get better.
It will 🙂
 
Generally speaking, when you’re married to somebody, you care what they think, and you try hard to help them to be happy. And that’s really, truly how you feel about your husband–you care about what he thinks and you want him to be happy and you’re doing your best to help him to be happy, the best way you know how. However, by divorcing you, your husband would be saying (in the clearest way possible) that he doesn’t want you in his life and he doesn’t need you. If he divorces you, he doesn’t get to keep those marital privileges.

You don’t need to say any of this right now (and you probably shouldn’t), but you probably need to be prepared to say something like it if he talks about lawyers or files separation papers. He can’t divorce you and choose to be in your life and your kids’ lives completely on his terms–there will be a judge involved and paperwork and legal fees and you will be able to choose (to some extent) how much time you have to spend in the same room with him. Also, divorce would probably mean you and the kids changing towns and holiday traditions and he would need to work around your work schedule. You would probably spend the holidays with the kids and your parents, and if he wanted to spend holidays with the kids, it would need to be elsewhere.

He has to choose whether to be in your life completely or out (almost) completely. You are not going to (metaphorically speaking) keep his pipe and slippers and easy chair waiting for him after he serves you divorce papers.

That said, I think he obviously does want you in his life to some extent. That’s good.
 
Generally speaking, when you’re married to somebody, you care what they think, and you try hard to help them to be happy. And that’s really, truly how you feel about your husband–you care about what he thinks and you want him to be happy and you’re doing your best to help him to be happy, the best way you know how. However, by divorcing you, your husband would be saying (in the clearest way possible) that he doesn’t want you in his life and he doesn’t need you. If he divorces you, he doesn’t get to keep those marital privileges.

You don’t need to say any of this right now (and you probably shouldn’t), but you probably need to be prepared to say something like it if he talks about lawyers or files separation papers. He can’t divorce you and choose to be in your life and your kids’ lives completely on his terms–there will be a judge involved and paperwork and legal fees and you will be able to choose (to some extent) how much time you have to spend in the same room with him. Also, divorce would probably mean you and the kids changing towns and holiday traditions and he would need to work around your work schedule. You would probably spend the holidays with the kids and your parents, and if he wanted to spend holidays with the kids, it would need to be elsewhere.

He has to choose whether to be in your life completely or out (almost) completely. You are not going to (metaphorically speaking) keep his pipe and slippers and easy chair waiting for him after he serves you divorce papers.

That said, I think he obviously does want you in his life to some extent. That’s good.
Divorce is a sickness in our society
 
When I tell him that divorced couples celebrating all holidays and special occasions together is unrealistic, he generally says that I can’t expect him to stick around forever if we can’t get along well enough to spend time together. I’d assume that the marital issues would get better with time while the divorce would make things worse between us.
This seems like something simple to explain. Married people trying to make their marriage work want to spend as much time together as they can. Divorced people, who are hurting and trying to heal, do not want to spend time together as this is emotionally painful and slows or even stops the healing and moving on process.

Divorced people can certainly get along and be civil or even friendly when it comes to raising their children and discussing the children, but they tend to want their ex out of their personal lives so that they can heal from the pain, get used to being single, and eventually date and remarry.

I think being friendly and civil is what the therapist may have been talking about when she said her bit about “co-parenting”. IE: You talk about the kids…rules, who got grounded and shouldn’t be allowed to go play on visitation, who got sick, how their grades are, etc. But no more than that. Certainly not going out and doing things as a family or spending holidays as a family because divorce means you aren’t a family anymore. You’re two adults who treat each other civilly and with respect, raise your children as more or less business partners, and stay the heck out of each others lives because you no longer share those lives. And that’s a best case scenario.

As we’ve said before there is also the possibility of new love interests to consider. It’s totally unrealistic to expect new husbands and wives to get along with the exes well enough to be willing to spend holidays together. They’ll have their own families and traditions. They’ll likely feel threatened by a too close relationship between exes. If he were to find a new woman I am pretty sure she isn’t going to want to be your BFF, too. :rolleyes: Nor would any future love interest you have want to be his BFF. And, frankly, once you’ve moved on to new relationships your loyalty would have to be with your new partners.

I think both you and the therapist need to be more clear on the realities of divorce. I’m all for plain speaking. I’d tell them both that just because divorced people could be BFF’s doesn’t mean you’d be willing to live like that. Explain that you’d be healing and trying to move on which wouldn’t be possible with him so heavily involved in your life. So, it’d have to be the standard divorce. No coming to the house without good reason and prior phone call and permission. No shared holidays. No going out as a family. NO CAKE AND EATING IT, TOO!

I know Xantippe says not to mention it now, but I would. I’d want him to totally understand what he’d be doing** before** he filed any papers or talked to any lawyers. Often once a person has gotten to that point they have already made up their minds. Wouldn’t want him making up his mind and taking action believing things will be much different they they would be.

As a 10 year veteran of marriage I do believe things could greatly improve between you two and you could have a great marriage. But you can’t make that great marriage alone. You both have to believe things will improve and work from that assumption. First assume that it will get better and then find ways to make it better. When we were having marital troubles my husband flat out told me that and he was right. Once we were both believing and acting like the marriage was going to get better, it did.
 
MJJean said:

“I think being friendly and civil is what the therapist may have been talking about when she said her bit about “co-parenting”.”

Exactly. She was not envisioning you guys carrying on as before, but divorced and with two separate households. I think Bernadettefaith needs to point out this misunderstanding to the counselor.

“It’s totally unrealistic to expect new husbands and wives to get along with the exes well enough to be willing to spend holidays together. They’ll have their own families and traditions. They’ll likely feel threatened by a too close relationship between exes.”

That happens A LOT. Sometimes, in fact, the new girlfriends and wives have very good reason to worry.

“NO CAKE AND EATING IT, TOO!”

Yes!

“I know Xantippe says not to mention it now, but I would. I’d want him to totally understand what he’d be doing before he filed any papers or talked to any lawyers.”

I’m really torn. I know we were discussing not bringing up the d-word in the context of the car, but maybe this is different? Maybe make it clear to him if he brings up the BFF divorce fantasy again, but not bring it up out of the blue?

“As a 10 year veteran of marriage I do believe things could greatly improve between you two and you could have a great marriage. But you can’t make that great marriage alone. You both have to believe things will improve and work from that assumption. First assume that it will get better and then find ways to make it better. When we were having marital troubles my husband flat out told me that and he was right. Once we were both believing and acting like the marriage was going to get better, it did.”

Yes. Bernadettefaith, has your counselor told your husband that the marriage can get better, if he puts effort into it?
 
She’s never said anything about putting effort into it. She has mentioned that having young children makes this the hardest part of our relationship. She also says that she believes time will heal us.

On the occasion that he brings up being friends (not often) I always say that it’s not realistic. He insists that I must be “difficult” if I’m not willing to accept his future girlfriend/wife and their children/families into my home.

Oh and in the event it remarried (probably unlikely), he insists that my husband would like him because he’s easy to get along with. I don’t necessarily agree.
 
Bernadettefaith said:

“She’s never said anything about putting effort into it. She has mentioned that having young children makes this the hardest part of our relationship. She also says that she believes time will heal us.”

What she said about young children and time is true, but I also think that it’s the case that your husband is doing a lot of unhelpful stuff right now. He could improve your marriage just by not talking out loud about how fantastic it’s going to be once both of you guys are remarried to other people, for instance.

“On the occasion that he brings up being friends (not often) I always say that it’s not realistic. He insists that I must be “difficult” if I’m not willing to accept his future girlfriend/wife and their children/families into my home.”

Answer: “Why should I be happy to be hanging around the man that I love with his new girlfriend or wife? That’s not a reasonable expectation. I can’t stop loving you and even thinking about that hurts me. Every time I saw you with another woman, it would be like sticking a knife in my heart. I can’t do that.”

The trick here is to switch the script from you being “difficult” to you loving him SO MUCH. This is a little corny and Hollywood, but that’s how you feel, right?

I think the reason he’s talking like this is because he has stopped thinking of you as a romantic partner or a woman with feelings, and he’s just thinking of you as his buddy or roommate who happens to do his laundry. Make it clear to him that you have not stopped thinking of him as the man you love.

“Oh and in the event it remarried (probably unlikely), he insists that my husband would like him because he’s easy to get along with. I don’t necessarily agree.”

I don’t know what to do with that one, beyond saying, “I don’t want another husband. I have a husband. I couldn’t stand seeing you with another woman.”
 
Bernadettefaith said:

“She’s never said anything about putting effort into it. She has mentioned that having young children makes this the hardest part of our relationship. She also says that she believes time will heal us.”

What she said about young children and time is true, but I also think that it’s the case that your husband is doing a lot of unhelpful stuff right now. He could improve your marriage just by not talking out loud about how fantastic it’s going to be once both of you guys are remarried to other people, for instance.

“On the occasion that he brings up being friends (not often) I always say that it’s not realistic. He insists that I must be “difficult” if I’m not willing to accept his future girlfriend/wife and their children/families into my home.”

Answer: “Why should I be happy to be hanging around the man that I love with his new girlfriend or wife? That’s not a reasonable expectation. I can’t stop loving you and even thinking about that hurts me. Every time I saw you with another woman, it would be like sticking a knife in my heart. I can’t do that.”

The trick here is to switch the script from you being “difficult” to you loving him SO MUCH. This is a little corny and Hollywood, but that’s how you feel, right?

I think the reason he’s talking like this is because he has stopped thinking of you as a romantic partner or a woman with feelings, and he’s just thinking of you as his buddy or roommate who happens to do his laundry. Make it clear to him that you have not stopped thinking of him as the man you love.

“Oh and in the event it remarried (probably unlikely), he insists that my husband would like him because he’s easy to get along with. I don’t necessarily agree.”

I don’t know what to do with that one, beyond saying, “I don’t want another husband. I have a husband. I couldn’t stand seeing you with another woman.”
Well we have been doing well with avoiding relationship talk. During counseling he usually brings up how unhappy I make him but doesn’t usually talk about remarriage. Remarriage was usually only brought up if I asked about plans in the event of a divorce (big mistake).

I try telling him that I’m here because I love him and he says that he knows that. I’m not quite sure why he’s so willing to give up if he really believes it. I guess part of him must want it to work as well because he does show a genuine interest in counseling. I’m sure he’d much rather be spending time doing something else rather than seeing a counselor.

I’ve always said that I don’t want another husband. He says that I’m making myself miserable just to follow church teachings. I just don’t think I’d need or want another man in my life while the children are so small and need so much attention. Besides, Dh had been so good to me for the first six years that I don’t think many other men could match up. I seriously would have never, ever guessed that he would end up like this. Just 6 mos ago he was so loving and was constantly texting me about how much he loved me.
 
Tonight didn’t really go well at all. The counselor did a communication activity first which was ok. Then we got to talking about dh’s anxiety. He says it’s getting worse with the holidays coming up as I would get angry when his parents came to visit for Christmas. Remember that I haven’t done this in well over a year. Last Christmas was fine because I was way more concerned about being 9 mos pregnant with a complicated pregnancy.

Anyway, we talked about how I’m upset with the lack of progress. Then she said that it’s because we are on two different pages. Dh wants to consider leaving and I am not considering that at all. I said that divorce isn’t the answer and she said the sometimes it is if he’s still unhappy. She more or less said that she’d like us to work out but that the marriage should make Dh happy. If he’s not happy then she doesn’t think he has a choice but to leave. She still does not really have many suggestions for us. She even said that maybe we should try someone else to see if they had ideas. I don’t think I want to go back to her if she says she supports marriage but also believes that divorce would make Dh happy.

On the other hand, Dh says that there is progress because he is talking about his anxiety and getting it all out there. It’s really bothering him and I hate seeing him like this. He says that I’m the cause of all of it and I just don’t know how I am - unless it’s just all his built up resentment coming out.

So yeah, I’m going to be looking for a new counselor most likely. Maybe I’ll try taking to a Christian counselor in town to see how her views on marriage are. There aren’t any Catholic ones locally and I don’t know about another secular one.
 
Anyway, we talked about how I’m upset with the lack of progress. Then she said that it’s because we are on two different pages. Dh wants to consider leaving and I am not considering that at all. I said that divorce isn’t the answer and she said the sometimes it is if he’s still unhappy. She more or less said that she’d like us to work out but that the marriage should make Dh happy. If he’s not happy then she doesn’t think he has a choice but to leave. She still does not really have many suggestions for us. She even said that maybe we should try someone else to see if they had ideas. I don’t think I want to go back to her if she says she supports marriage but also believes that divorce would make Dh happy.
Bernadettefaith, I’m so sorry you are going through this terrible time. I would suggest that if you are seeing this counsellor individually, to tell her about your concerns on this point in your individual session.

I’m not a counsellor but have been volunteering with a marriage counselling organisation for about 10 years so I’m saying this from that perspective. People often turn up at counselling expecting the counsellor to ‘knock some sense into their spouse’ but that isn’t what counselling is designed to do.

It’s likely that your husband is feeling ‘trapped’ by the commitment at this point and is fighting against ‘folding’ under the pressure of it. The ideal place for him to make a free and healthy choice to stay with the marriage and commit to its growth in the future, is to realise that he is actually free to leave if he wants to. The counsellor would know this is a very important aspect. I know that sounds selfish and frightening… but it is actually the starting point for healthy reconciliations and renewed commitments in marriage. If a counsellor were to take any solution off the board in guiding your husband… he could never really make a freewill choice regarding marriage and would be acting only on obligation and duty. It would likely last for a little while, but with underlying resentments etc.

I would recommend having some individual sessions with the counsellor and never hold back on your concerns about her methods and ideas. Most good counsellors understand just how important the role of freewill is in building a fortified and healthy marriage and sometimes that can seem to go against Catholicism, but really freewill is one of the foundations of all marriage commitments. I hope that makes some sense.
 
Bernadettefaith, I’m so sorry you are going through this terrible time. I would suggest that if you are seeing this counsellor individually, to tell her about your concerns on this point in your individual session.

I’m not a counsellor but have been volunteering with a marriage counselling organisation for about 10 years so I’m saying this from that perspective. People often turn up at counselling expecting the counsellor to ‘knock some sense into their spouse’ but that isn’t what counselling is designed to do.

It’s likely that your husband is feeling ‘trapped’ by the commitment at this point and is fighting against ‘folding’ under the pressure of it. The ideal place for him to make a free and healthy choice to stay with the marriage and commit to its growth in the future, is to realise that he is actually free to leave if he wants to. The counsellor would know this is a very important aspect. I know that sounds selfish and frightening… but it is actually the starting point for healthy reconciliations and renewed commitments in marriage. If a counsellor were to take any solution off the board in guiding your husband… he could never really make a freewill choice regarding marriage and would be acting only on obligation and duty. It would likely last for a little while, but with underlying resentments etc.

I would recommend having some individual sessions with the counsellor and never hold back on your concerns about her methods and ideas. Most good counsellors understand just how important the role of freewill is in building a fortified and healthy marriage and sometimes that can seem to go against Catholicism, but really freewill is one of the foundations of all marriage commitments. I hope that makes some sense.
Yes, that makes sense. He doesn’t want to feel trapped. On the other hand, I feel like if it’s an option to leave then he will want to go for that option.

I do see her individually next week and Dh sees her right after me.

I still am not quite thrilled with her supporting the idea that divorce may be the solution for personal happiness alone. Maybe for an abusive situation but not just for his own happiness.
 
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