Married men with SSA - Should we be publicly open about it?

[Prodigal_Son]

Cat,

Where to begin?

OK, let me start with Saint Paul:

Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Saint Paul did not find SSA dark and disgusting. Unnatural, yes. But when you talk about being repelled, you seem to talk about the person repelling you, not the acts. If this is the case, then I would direct you to look at the mote in your own eye.

The reason I mention this is that you say the following:

In fact, I’m guessing that you have probably acquired mannerisms in your body language and speech that you aren’t even aware of, that repel others. You need time, many years, so that you can become aware of your own shortcomings, admit that they ARE shortcomings, and rid yourselves of them.

It really puzzles me how you could know this about me, especially because it’s not true. But I’m sure you, with your thorough understanding of sexual development and maturity, will realize that I’m obviously lying through my teeth right now. Obviously I’m effeminate and needy; obviously I repel others.

You seem to think that the attraction of one man to another is a toxin that infects every aspect of his relationships to everyone. This attitude of yours is, I assure you, its own reward.

On another tack, you’re right that I need to sit on this for a while, and receive more healing. Decades, though? I mean, the idea is not to write a book where I present myself as a saint, and say how everyone should be like me. It is not to present myself as a paragon. It is to present myself as a man struggling openly, who believes that Christians ought to share our struggles with one another, so that we can encourage each other that we’re not alone.

Do SSA people feel alone? Oh, yeah. And every step the gay liberation movement takes makes them feel more alone.

I agree with all the other women on this thread who have said that it is very hurtful to a wife to be reminded often that her husband is attracted to others. Read the Book of Proverbs–there are dozens of passages in that book in which the writer tells men to delight only in the wife of his youth!

And I only delight in the wife of my youth!

As for being attracted to men, look, I don’t remind this of her by saying, “Hey, honey, don’t you think that guy over there is hot?” I simply share my struggle with her, not always even using words. If you think my marriage would be better with this hidden, trust me: we’ve tried that. It would have destroyed us. As you yourself just said, “Darkness and light do not enjoy fellowship.”

I agree with another poster who said that there is a difference between a temptation to have sex with another man and a temptation to flip off a bad driver.

I agree, too. But neither *temptation *is shameful.

I am part of an accountability group, by the way.

 

[Boundless]

Hi, Prodigal_Son.

As a married man who also has SSA, let me say that I completely understand where you’re coming from. What so many others here do not seem to understand is that part of the cross of same sex attraction that makes it harder to live a life of virtue is precisely that this IS something that we often feel we have to hide, that makes us more “disgusting” than our brothers and sisters who do not so struggle, so it is something “shameful” to not even be mentioned openly. That can make a person struggling with this more likely to fall or embrace the lifestyle, because “If I’m so broken and disgusting anyway, why try?”

That attitude has been demonstrated right in this very thread: Catechism quotes about SSA being disordered being used as an excuse/justification to treat people with SSA worse than one would treat people with other temptations, despite that the same Catechism says immediately afterward that “homosexuals” (presumably even those who are active, let alone those who are merely tempted) should not be discriminated against, etc. And if you treat someone with SSA worse or as being more repulsive than you’d treat someone else, with different temptations, based solely on the same sex attractions, what is that? Exactly: Discrimination.

I’m also not so sure that everyone is right at all about the “serious psychological damage” your children will suffer, IF you’ve raised them from the get go to know that same sex attractions are not something more shameful than other temptations. Kids are a lot more resilient than people give them credit for. Yes, other kids will tease them, yes people will make fun of their daddy to their faces. But when a kid feels confident, from being raised to know so, that they are on the right side, they tend to blame the other people, rather than hating themselves or resenting their parents. A kid who is teased for having an overweight mother, for example (and trust me, such cruel bullies DO exist) will not blame his mother nor himself if he had it ingrained into him that being overweight is not some great shame. Instead, he’ll defend her valiantly, and far from hating her, he’ll just know that the bullies are wrong.

The fact of the matter is, at least on average, if children are going to be psychologically scarred by such jeers, then it’s because they haven’t had a strong foundation which gives them confidence that the bullies aren’t right to tease them. The worst effects of bullying (and I say this as someone who faced bullying, and my wife, who faced bullying to dramatic teen movie levels, backs me up on this) are those of wondering if the bullies are right. When you’re confident that the bullies are wrong, their taunts and jeers come across as stupidity. It’s tough, it’s not something you want to relive, but it doesn’t give you an identity crisis, etc. You seem intent on raising your children so that they’ll know, when bullies come knocking about their father’s struggles, that the bullies are the ones with the deeper problems, not their father, not they themselves.

Still, my own confession is that I’m not sure I’m brave enough to ever be open with it, and if not then that’s a shame. My wife, who actually posted on this very thread as KateMonday, is fully behind me if I do acknowledge it more publicly. In fact, she’s a little more gung ho about the idea than I am. But that’s because of my own fears. And the reason it’s a shame is that there’s a lot of good that can come from being open. I’m not saying a person has to write a book, but the logic of many of the posts here discouraging you from that would also, taken to their logical conclusion, lead you to try to actively hide it, to avoid any situation that might have a reasonable chance of exposing it. So even being honest about it as much as, say, an alcoholic might be about his alcoholism, would be no go, by some of the logic seen here. I get that there are risks, but if we continue to hide, to act as though we have some great shame that we must cover, we consent to and condone the cultural forces that make those risks so great. If we act as though our temptations are particularly shameful compared to other people’s, we send the message that the other people who say this are right, and that, for instance, bullies (child and adult alike) are right to treat us, our families, even our children, as inferiors. Because we are dirty, we are “shamed”, we are too taboo to acknowledge in a real concrete way beyond the anonymous abstract. I just don’t think that’s the answer.

I agree that you should think it through, and measure all the risks and costs, and whether you personally are willing to risk them. But that’s a personal thing, not a broad statement on the ethics of it. I can agree with everyone here about it being risky, hence my own hesitation: But I do NOT agree with implying that this risk means it would be wrong for you to be open about it. No, the risk means something is wrong with society, both with the liberals who would lambast you for not “embracing who you are” and with the judgmental folks who would say you’re more repulsive than other people for even having these temptations, no matter whether or not you’re trying to live right. To be sure, that’s going to be hard to face if you go more public with your struggles, but just lying down and shutting up in order to avoid that risk does not seem to be the answer, and actually may lend a little undeserved legitimacy, intentional or not, to a society that would essentially try to bully men in your (and my) shoes into staying underground, as if the “status quo” on this matter is the way it should remain, and you shouldn’t rock the boat.

Just my perspective.

 

[KateMonday]

In fact, I’m guessing that you have probably acquired mannerisms in your body language and speech that you aren’t even aware of, that repel others. You need time, many years, so that you can become aware of your own shortcomings, admit that they ARE shortcomings, and rid yourselves of them.

…seriously??? :ehh:

 

[revert_jen]

It really puzzles me how you could know this about me, especially because it’s not true. But I’m sure you, with your thorough understanding of sexual development and maturity, will realize that I’m obviously lying through my teeth right now. Obviously I’m effeminate and needy; obviously I repel others.

I’m not sure which one of us was reading Cat wrong, but I didn’t take the statement that way. I know that I personally have mannerisms that are, if not repulsive, certainly off-putting. I’ve never suffered from SSA, and the mannerisms in question aren’t related to sexuality. But everyone has things that put people off, and it’s a good idea to conquer them before setting yourself up as an example. Because people will take the bad as something to negate the good you are trying to do. I mean, they aren’t going to say to themselves in so many words, “He bites his nails, so therefore he’s not someone to listen to.” But if they don’t want to listen to you because of your message, they’re going to take whatever excuse they can get.

If Cat meant that every man who suffers from SSA is a bit swishy, well, that is wrong. I’ve known gay men who were not obviously gay, and so someone who suffers from SSA but is not gay could certainly have escaped those mannerisms, which I have no reason to believe are natural in any case, but are put on to fit in to a particular subculture.

But maybe Cat could say what was meant, and then we’d know.

–Jen

 

[revert_jen]

I’m also not so sure that everyone is right at all about the “serious psychological damage” your children will suffer, IF you’ve raised them from the get go to know that same sex attractions are not something more shameful than other temptations. Kids are a lot more resilient than people give them credit for. Yes, other kids will tease them, yes people will make fun of their daddy to their faces. But when a kid feels confident, from being raised to know so, that they are on the right side, they tend to blame the other people, rather than hating themselves or resenting their parents. A kid who is teased for having an overweight mother, for example (and trust me, such cruel bullies DO exist) will not blame his mother nor himself if he had it ingrained into him that being overweight is not some great shame. Instead, he’ll defend her valiantly, and far from hating her, he’ll just know that the bullies are wrong.

I think this is assuming an excellence that some children have, but most don’t. It’s not all about how you raise them, they are their own people. I would not, as a child, have been ready to assume the adult mantle of being 100% mature about being teased, and as it happens, I did have a very overweight mother, and I did blame her for it, even though I don’t recall ever having been teased about it. And now I’m somewhat overweight myself, and I blame me for that.

It seems to me like you and the OP are saying, in effect, it doesn’t matter if I put this large extra burden on my young children (mid-teens and up would be different if they could be consulted first), because if they are much better than average children, it will only be somewhat difficult, rather than psychologically damaging. But what if your kids turn out to be average kids? What if they’re only a little above average? If they’re old enough to understand properly, you can find out where they are by telling it to them privately and seeing how they take it. If they’re too young to understand properly, all you can do is throw them in at the deep end and hope they’re natural swimmers.

There is also the aspect for children that are too young, if they are boys, that they wil try to emulate you, as boys do try to emulate their fathers. Would you want to increase the likelihood that they also would suffer from the same temptations? The psychology of attraction is very complicated, and anyone who claims to understand it completely is lying. Quite possibly it wouldn’t happen. But it might.

The thing is, I have read all the posts on this thread, and I’m not sure what exactly the benefits are that the OP would accomplish by his book that would outweigh placing his children in these sorts of danger. I mean, sure, people with SSA feel alone, and people who are overweight feel alone, and adulterers feel alone, and even with all the groups out there, I’m told that alcoholics can feel alone, too. The fact is, all people feel alone sometimes, and some people feel more alone than others, even without special circumstances. And clearly it’s possible to figure it out, since you and the OP did yourselves. I’m just not sure what the big gain would be.

–Jen

 

[Joe_5859]

Hi, Prodigal_Son.

As a married man who also has SSA, let me say that I completely understand where you’re coming from. What so many others here do not seem to understand is that part of the cross of same sex attraction that makes it harder to live a life of virtue is precisely that this IS something that we often feel we have to hide, that makes us more “disgusting” than our brothers and sisters who do not so struggle, so it is something “shameful” to not even be mentioned openly. That can make a person struggling with this more likely to fall or embrace the lifestyle, because “If I’m so broken and disgusting anyway, why try?”

That attitude has been demonstrated right in this very thread: Catechism quotes about SSA being disordered being used as an excuse/justification to treat people with SSA worse than one would treat people with other temptations, despite that the same Catechism says immediately afterward that “homosexuals” (presumably even those who are active, let alone those who are merely tempted) should not be discriminated against, etc. And if you treat someone with SSA worse or as being more repulsive than you’d treat someone else, with different temptations, based solely on the same sex attractions, what is that? Exactly: Discrimination.

I’m also not so sure that everyone is right at all about the “serious psychological damage” your children will suffer, IF you’ve raised them from the get go to know that same sex attractions are not something more shameful than other temptations. Kids are a lot more resilient than people give them credit for. Yes, other kids will tease them, yes people will make fun of their daddy to their faces. But when a kid feels confident, from being raised to know so, that they are on the right side, they tend to blame the other people, rather than hating themselves or resenting their parents. A kid who is teased for having an overweight mother, for example (and trust me, such cruel bullies DO exist) will not blame his mother nor himself if he had it ingrained into him that being overweight is not some great shame. Instead, he’ll defend her valiantly, and far from hating her, he’ll just know that the bullies are wrong.

The fact of the matter is, at least on average, if children are going to be psychologically scarred by such jeers, then it’s because they haven’t had a strong foundation which gives them confidence that the bullies aren’t right to tease them. The worst effects of bullying (and I say this as someone who faced bullying, and my wife, who faced bullying to dramatic teen movie levels, backs me up on this) are those of wondering if the bullies are right. When you’re confident that the bullies are wrong, their taunts and jeers come across as stupidity. It’s tough, it’s not something you want to relive, but it doesn’t give you an identity crisis, etc. You seem intent on raising your children so that they’ll know, when bullies come knocking about their father’s struggles, that the bullies are the ones with the deeper problems, not their father, not they themselves.

[abridged for length]

Welcome to CAF! What a wonderful first post. You make some great points, especially about the impact on children and the comments about bullying. That is so true. The worst part about bullying is the fears that the bullies are right. If the children are raised right, then knowing this about their father wouldn’t be any different than knowing their father was a recovering alcoholic (which I’m sure could also subject kids to bullying).

The comments about how we often paint this as something the very temptation of which makes someone “more repulsive” is sadly right on target. We need to work to dispel such notions if we are ever going to get people to actually believe that we don’t hate gay people.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think this is assuming an excellence that some children have, but most don’t. It’s not all about how you raise them, they are their own people. I would not, as a child, have been ready to assume the adult mantle of being 100% mature about being teased, and as it happens, I did have a very overweight mother, and I did blame her for it, even though I don’t recall ever having been teased about it. And now I’m somewhat overweight myself, and I blame me for that.

It seems to me like you and the OP are saying, in effect, it doesn’t matter if I put this large extra burden on my young children (mid-teens and up would be different if they could be consulted first), because if they are much better than average children, it will only be somewhat difficult, rather than psychologically damaging. But what if your kids turn out to be average kids? What if they’re only a little above average? If they’re old enough to understand properly, you can find out where they are by telling it to them privately and seeing how they take it. If they’re too young to understand properly, all you can do is throw them in at the deep end and hope they’re natural swimmers.

There is also the aspect for children that are too young, if they are boys, that they wil try to emulate you, as boys do try to emulate their fathers. Would you want to increase the likelihood that they also would suffer from the same temptations? The psychology of attraction is very complicated, and anyone who claims to understand it completely is lying. Quite possibly it wouldn’t happen. But it might.

The thing is, I have read all the posts on this thread, and I’m not sure what exactly the benefits are that the OP would accomplish by his book that would outweigh placing his children in these sorts of danger. I mean, sure, people with SSA feel alone, and people who are overweight feel alone, and adulterers feel alone, and even with all the groups out there, I’m told that alcoholics can feel alone, too. The fact is, all people feel alone sometimes, and some people feel more alone than others, even without special circumstances. And clearly it’s possible to figure it out, since you and the OP did yourselves. I’m just not sure what the big gain would be.

–Jen

Jen, you raise some good points about the possible risks and the necessity to know one’s children. I think it’s valid to have concerns and that is something the OP needs to factor in. I don’t know that it would be an insurmountable obstacle. But if it were me, that would be the one weighing heaviest on my mind.

In terms of what the gain would be, I would say that it is similar to the gain to be had by any conversion story. How many Protestants considering Catholicism have been edified and strengthened in their often difficult journey by reading Scott and Kimberly Hahn’s conversion story? Sure, it was possible for Dr. & Mrs. Hahn to “figure it out” themselves, but than doesn’t mean there is no gain to be had from sharing the story.

 

[revert_jen]

Jen, you raise some good points about the possible risks and the necessity to know one’s children. I think it’s valid to have concerns and that is something the OP needs to factor in. I don’t know that it would be an insurmountable obstacle. But if it were me, that would be the one weighing heaviest on my mind.

Thanks. Yes, it seems to me to be the largest hurdle, at least.

In terms of what the gain would be, I would say that it is similar to the gain to be had by any conversion story. How many Protestants considering Catholicism have been edified and strengthened in their often difficult journey by reading Scott and Kimberly Hahn’s conversion story? Sure, it was possible for Dr. & Mrs. Hahn to “figure it out” themselves, but than doesn’t mean there is no gain to be had from sharing the story.

Well, yes and no. I see your point, but this isn’t exactly a conversion story–or is it? The fact that someone with SSA was blessed to have also an attraction to a woman and married her is great, and I praise God for it. But the Hahns had reasons and arguments to present for their conversion, and those reasons and arguments can speak to those reading their book (which was a good choice of example, because it helped me back to the Church myself ).

I’m not sure what the OP is planning to provide except an account of his experiences. There may easily be more to it that I am missing. Perhaps there are some techniques for overcoming problems that he could present. He said he wouldn’t be mentioning the gay porn, so it can’t be about how to get over that… I just don’t see what the real point is (which is NOT to say that there is no point, just that I’m not getting it). I mean if someone who has SSA is blessed to be attracted to a member of the opposite sex, it’s not so hard to figure out where to go from there. If they’re not so blessed, they can’t get there by reading a book.

I guess what I’m saying is that it’s certainly possible that there could be more to a book than just a relation of experiences. I just don’t know what more than that is being proposed. But if the only benefit would be a story letting people know they aren’t alone, a blog would certainly do just as well or better. Does the OP want to fight the gay lobby? Or does he just want to let people who have both SSA and OSA know it’s possible to be happily married? I’m not sure you could do both in the same book. It could be political or pastoral, but being both would be a bit of a stretch. How big is his audience? It takes a fair bit of research to find that out, which hasn’t yet been done, AFAIK. If the audience is small, a book would do less good. And so forth. Without knowing what the benefits are hoped to be, how can you weigh the costs against them? I don’t mean that I personally need to know, but I’m not sure from his posts whether the OP knows either. And it seems like the worst possible outcome would be to make the information public and then not get to write the book which explains it.

–Jen

 

[Joe_5859]

Well, yes and no. I see your point, but this isn’t exactly a conversion story–or is it? The fact that someone with SSA was blessed to have also an attraction to a woman and married her is great, and I praise God for it. But the Hahns had reasons and arguments to present for their conversion, and those reasons and arguments can speak to those reading their book (which was a good choice of example, because it helped me back to the Church myself ).

I’m not sure what the OP is planning to provide except an account of his experiences. There may easily be more to it that I am missing. Perhaps there are some techniques for overcoming problems that he could present. He said he wouldn’t be mentioning the gay porn, so it can’t be about how to get over that… I just don’t see what the real point is (which is NOT to say that there is no point, just that I’m not getting it). I mean if someone who has SSA is blessed to be attracted to a member of the opposite sex, it’s not so hard to figure out where to go from there. If they’re not so blessed, they can’t get there by reading a book.

I guess what I’m saying is that it’s certainly possible that there could be more to a book than just a relation of experiences. I just don’t know what more than that is being proposed. But if the only benefit would be a story letting people know they aren’t alone, a blog would certainly do just as well or better. Does the OP want to fight the gay lobby? Or does he just want to let people who have both SSA and OSA know it’s possible to be happily married? I’m not sure you could do both in the same book. It could be political or pastoral, but being both would be a bit of a stretch. How big is his audience? It takes a fair bit of research to find that out, which hasn’t yet been done, AFAIK. If the audience is small, a book would do less good. And so forth. Without knowing what the benefits are hoped to be, how can you weigh the costs against them? I don’t mean that I personally need to know, but I’m not sure from his posts whether the OP knows either. And it seems like the worst possible outcome would be to make the information public and then not get to write the book which explains it.

–Jen

I don’t know that the OP has fully formulated exactly what he plans on doing in terms of being more forthcoming about his struggles. The whole thing stuck me as being more in the initial stages of thought. So I wouldn’t expect a book outline just yet.

For me, I do see this as a type of conversion story in light of the OP’s Catholic faith. Many Protestants have their own objections to the Catholic faith. The Hahns address many of them quite well in their book. But there are other types of obstacles as well. And for many in our culture today, homosexuality is a big one. How someone coming from that place lives out the Catholic faith in confomity with the Church’s teaching on sexuality seems like a story worth hearing about.

Thirty years ago – pre-Hahn and pre-Catholic Answers – it was somewhat unchartered waters for a Protestant pastor to convert to the Catholic Church. Lots of guys like Hahn, Shea, and Grodi were more or less on their own. But now the path is well trod. There is an established “Coming Home Network” to help people that are in that exact situation. It gives them support. It points them towards resources. It lets them know that it is possible for them to live the Catholic life.

I can see similarities between their situation 30 years ago and the OP’s situation at present. To borrow the image from an article linked to earlier, gay people that live out the Catholic Church’s teaching seem something like unicorns. They seem not to exist as not many have ever seen them. But if the role models become more visible, then more people will realize that such a path is possible.

And also like the OP, I’m sure many Catholic converts have had their share of concerns over how it would affect their kids. Will their Protestant friends shun them? Perhaps tell them they are hell bound? Or even worse, will Grandma and Grandpa disown Mommy and Daddy and be cut out their lives?

Not to stretch the comparison too far. Obviously no comparison is perfect. But I find enough similarities that I think we would be remiss not to give due consideration to the possible good that could come from it.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I think I have more to say in response to your whole post, Jen, but I wanted to quickly comment on one thing.

I mean, sure, people with SSA feel alone, and people who are overweight feel alone, and adulterers feel alone, and even with all the groups out there, I’m told that alcoholics can feel alone, too.

But SSA is not like being overweight or any of the other examples you give. SSA is not a sin, nor is it (in most cases) a result of the sin of the person who suffers from it. It is a type of temptation that our culture does not acknowledge as temptation.

Sinners can meet anonymously, and should, to get healing from their besetting sins. But ATTRACTION is not a besetting sin, and it may be useful to expose this particular temptation to the light. (Comparison: People in this culture believe that people who like food, or other people’s wives, or alcohol even, have the power to control themselves. People in this culture do not believe, however, that a married man with SSA can control himself. If you haven’t noticed this, it might be because you don’t have particular reasons to pay attention to how we’re talked about.)

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Hi Boundless! It’s nice to meet you.

What so many others here do not seem to understand is that part of the cross of same sex attraction that makes it harder to live a life of virtue is precisely that this IS something that we often feel we have to hide, that makes us more “disgusting” than our brothers and sisters who do not so struggle, so it is something “shameful” to not even be mentioned openly. That can make a person struggling with this more likely to fall or embrace the lifestyle, because “If I’m so broken and disgusting anyway, why try?”

Couple that with the fact that we’re really good at hiding, from much practice, and you’ve got a very fertile soil for sin. Ever pick up one of those paving stones, and see all the teeming strange lifeforms underneath? You can’t clean that up without being able to see it quite well. And a little bit of light just might not be enough.

I’m also not so sure that everyone is right at all about the “serious psychological damage” your children will suffer, IF you’ve raised them from the get go to know that same sex attractions are not something more shameful than other temptations. Kids are a lot more resilient than people give them credit for. Yes, other kids will tease them, yes people will make fun of their daddy to their faces. But when a kid feels confident, from being raised to know so, that they are on the right side, they tend to blame the other people, rather than hating themselves or resenting their parents. A kid who is teased for having an overweight mother, for example (and trust me, such cruel bullies DO exist) will not blame his mother nor himself if he had it ingrained into him that being overweight is not some great shame. Instead, he’ll defend her valiantly, and far from hating her, he’ll just know that the bullies are wrong.

The fact of the matter is, at least on average, if children are going to be psychologically scarred by such jeers, then it’s because they haven’t had a strong foundation which gives them confidence that the bullies aren’t right to tease them.

This is all very helpful and good. I do worry, though, about making my family a pawn in the culture war – I mean, if I got this published, it might get some real press, even if it was very badly done. That’s not very comforting to me. I’d much prefer a way that I could be open about who I am, but keep the whole thing from spinning out of control. If you looked at the Josh Weed site, that’s exactly the type of thing that gives me pause – his family has become a lightning rod. (joshweed.com/2012/06/club-unicorn-in-which-i-come-out-of.html)

Still, my own confession is that I’m not sure I’m brave enough to ever be open with it, and if not then that’s a shame. My wife, who actually posted on this very thread as KateMonday, is fully behind me if I do acknowledge it more publicly. In fact, she’s a little more gung ho about the idea than I am. But that’s because of my own fears. And the reason it’s a shame is that there’s a lot of good that can come from being open.

Well, you don’t want to rush the whole thing. Though I think everyone in our position should have several friends who know our whole story, and who we keep up that sort of intimacy with. It would be absolutely beautiful if we could have it an “open secret” in our churches (among adults): I don’t know how to get to that point, but it would be phenomenally helpful to those who are silently struggling – if only because they knew, hey, there’s someone I can talk to, who has gone through this too.

I have not yet, to this point in my life, found someone like that (except online).

If we act as though our temptations are particularly shameful compared to other people’s, we send the message that the other people who say this are right, and that, for instance, bullies (child and adult alike) are right to treat us, our families, even our children, as inferiors. Because we are dirty, we are “shamed”, we are too taboo to acknowledge in a real concrete way beyond the anonymous abstract. I just don’t think that’s the answer.

Amen.

I agree that you should think it through, and measure all the risks and costs, and whether you personally are willing to risk them. But that’s a personal thing, not a broad statement on the ethics of it. I can agree with everyone here about it being risky, hence my own hesitation: But I do NOT agree with implying that this risk means it would be wrong for you to be open about it. No, the risk means something is wrong with society, both with the liberals who would lambast you for not “embracing who you are” and with the judgmental folks who would say you’re more repulsive than other people for even having these temptations, no matter whether or not you’re trying to live right. To be sure, that’s going to be hard to face if you go more public with your struggles, but just lying down and shutting up in order to avoid that risk does not seem to be the answer, and actually may lend a little undeserved legitimacy, intentional or not, to a society that would essentially try to bully men in your (and my) shoes into staying underground, as if the “status quo” on this matter is the way it should remain, and you shouldn’t rock the boat.

Yes, exactly. Notice that it is no longer shameful to be openly and actively gay, but it is shameful (on a cultural level) to marry a woman despite a desire for men. I’m not talking pride parades here, but we need dignity, brother.

 

[Boundless]

I think this is assuming an excellence that some children have, but most don’t. … It seems to me like you and the OP are saying, in effect, it doesn’t matter if I put this large extra burden on my young children.

Let me assure you that this is not what we’re saying. We’re just a lot more optimistic, it would seem, about the ability to brace one’s children for this sort of thing by having raised them from the very beginning with a strong sense of right. So your mistake is in assuming we agree with you that it is highly likely that this would affect the children the way you think it would. Only then could you assume we just don’t care about its effect on them.

Besides, the “write a book” thing seems just an example. I think the OP’s main point is that men with SSA should not have to hide, anymore than anyone else. If a man with SSA feels that his having SSA is relevant to a conversation (or a book), he shouldn’t have to “hide” it. The thing is, the “hiding” is AMAZINGLY draining to the psyche. It’s not passive, so you’re not asking the OP or myself to just “do nothing,” you’re asking us to put an enormous amount of energy into continuing a façade.

There is also the aspect for children that are too young, if they are boys, that they wil try to emulate you … Quite possibly it wouldn’t happen. But it might.

It might. But I am not at all convinced that it has a high chance, so for me it’s too hypothetical to be a deal breaker. And if, say, the OP did become very open about this, and his children did struggle with SSA, I don’t know that I would be at all convinced it was because they knew about his. There are just too many possible factors in why they would come to struggle with this, and I do not believe the odds are likely that his revelation would be a deciding one at all, especially if they were raised with sound Catholic teaching.

Besides, suppose that the opposite is true? Suppose the son developed SSA independently of his father, who never revealed his own, and the son just assumed his father couldn’t possibly relate to him? Suppose he begins to pursue the same sex lifestyle, perhaps even covertly, before ever opening up to his father because SSA is something “shameful” that his father would never understand. By the time he finds out his father has SSA too, he is already ingrained in the lifestyle, and is convinced his father is just “in denial” when if he’d had that support and knowledge originally, he might have turned out differently.

I am not touting this scenario as something likely to happen…but if “it might happen” counts as a cautionary tale, my point is that “it might” could just as easily be used as a reason TO be open about SSA as not. We can’t base our decisions on what “might” happen, in cases where it “might” go either way, that’s all.

The thing is, I have read all the posts on this thread, and I’m not sure what exactly the benefits are that the OP would accomplish by his book that would outweigh placing his children in these sorts of danger… I’m just not sure what the big gain would be.

The fact is, unless someone starts taking these risks that so many in this thread think would be outright wrong to take, then nothing is ever going to change. If we just accept the status quo because challenging it is too risky, then we are going to spend our entire lives, as will every man with SSA but not wanting to act on it, feeling that it’s better to put on a front than to just be honest. And that front can be very costly, not only to one’s personal mental health, but even in one’s ability to do good, selfless things for the Kingdom of God. There are countless things I’ve shrank away from doing because I feared that, if my SSA were revealed after the fact, it would cause much graver scandal. In fact, if my wife hadn’t told me that she had SSA, there’s a chance we’d never have married because I’m not sure I’d have ever trusted her with knowledge of my struggles (a part of my overall life, that a spouse has a right to know) if I hadn’t known she struggled. And why? Because it’s much harder to share this sort of thing when it’s not something you’re already open about, when it’s a “deep, dark secret.”

That’s not the kind of fear I want to teach my children, who may struggle with SSA themselves. It’s not the kind of fear I want to legitimize by hiding as though SSA is radioactive or contagious. I don’t want my hypothetical son to find he has SSA and then cower in fear when he feels God pulling him to some sort of, say, great ministry because he fears people finding out about his “filthy secret.” I don’t want my SSA neighbor across town to hold back on a beautiful gift God has given him because sharing that gift might draw attention from enough people that he will be humiliated if they find out that he has SSA. I don’t want some man who wants to get married to either never do so or do so while never getting up the courage to tell his wife about his SSA because, if it’s so shameful that he’s not supposed to talk about it openly, that’s not reassuring that he should be able to trust a potential spouse with it either.

This secrecy, this burden of having a “guilty secret”, it can do real damage in people’s lives.

Perhaps Prodigal_Son, like myself, would simply like to open the door to more transparency, and banish the shadows of secrecy which can and does hold so many men captive and crippled in fear. He may never change things, but the prevailing attitude of this thread would guarantee that such change will never occur.

 

[Boundless]

Hi Boundless! It’s nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you too!

This is all very helpful and good. I do worry, though, about making my family a pawn in the culture war – I mean, if I got this published, it might get some real press, even if it was very badly done. That’s not very comforting to me. I’d much prefer a way that I could be open about who I am, but keep the whole thing from spinning out of control. If you looked at the Josh Weed site, that’s exactly the type of thing that gives me pause – his family has become a lightning rod. (joshweed.com/2012/06/club-unicorn-in-which-i-come-out-of.html)

Yes, I do think that’s a valid concern, and I think there is indeed an important distinction between “public” as in “famous, viral revelation” and “public” as in “He will admit to it, like anything else, if it’s relevant or comes up, rather than dancing around the topic and hiding it as if it’s some big shameful secret.”

In my last response to revert_jen, I think I get to the heart of the kind of openness you’re advocating, and in light of that I think you’d be far more justified. You’re not trying to be “a martyr” or “an icon”. You’re just debating on whether to “come out of hiding” so to speak. And hiding, as I touched on when replying to jen, can be a draining practice in verbal gymnastics, worry, stress, self-loathing, etc, not a merely passive thing like people seem to assume. Granted, if a famous person or an author didn’t hide, he might become a “martyr” or a “pawn” etc., but even then it doesn’t mean he was wrong to refuse to hide, just that his high profile position/work put him in a position where not hiding would inevitably make him a high profile example, and I think that was the main point of your “book” example, which I think many here have missed by assuming that you’re main desire is to write a book. Seems to me you’re just advocating an author’s right to be as honest about this issue as he would be about anything else, not that you’re advocating the high pursuit of political/social martyrdom

Well, you don’t want to rush the whole thing. Though I think everyone in our position should have several friends who know our whole story, and who we keep up that sort of intimacy with. It would be absolutely beautiful if we could have it an “open secret” in our churches (among adults): I don’t know how to get to that point, but it would be phenomenally helpful to those who are silently struggling – if only because they knew, hey, there’s someone I can talk to, who has gone through this too.

I have not yet, to this point in my life, found someone like that (except online).

Oh, I don’t intend to rush. Mainly, like yourself, I just don’t want to have to hide. I’m thinking of trying to help get a chapter of Courage started, for example. Yet I know that this comes with risks. If I’m a charter member, especially, my “secret” could come out, or at least become suspected, even with all the precautions such groups take. I’m tired of being so “scared” of that, of letting it hold me back. That’s a concrete example of what can be gained by not feeling like I have to “hide,” and even in my individual case alone it’s only one of several.

Notice that it is no longer shameful to be openly and actively gay, but it is shameful (on a cultural level) to marry a woman despite a desire for men. I’m not talking pride parades here, but we need dignity, brother.

Amen!!!

Sadly, many people within Christian circles are just as responsible this ironic state of affairs as people within the gay agenda. The two sides are ironic partners in creating an atmosphere where the married man with SSA feels he has to be secretive and hide even as open and active homosexuals literally parade it around with little fear of being truly rejected by all sides for doing so.

 

[LaSainte]

I wasn’t comparing my plan to the Christians in the Roman Empire. I was saying that both cases have some things in common.

In our culture today, it is clear how alcoholism can be taken captive for Christ. It is clear how anorexia can be taken captive for Christ. It is clear how cancer can be taken captive for Christ. In all these areas, there are a cloud of witnesses – a cloud of people who have been open about their temptations and struggles (and victories!), so that others do not feel alone. In our culture, it is becoming slightly clear how one man can be sexually attracted to other men and not sin. But it is not clear how a man can do this while married to a woman. All the Christian advice seems to be, “Repress, repress, repress.”

Maybe a blog can do all this. But I’m not sure that prudence demands a blog rather than a book. I am sure that I’m not ready yet. But I hope to be ready sometime before all my children are grown.

(1) I am not considering a book documenting struggles with looking at porn. One can describe what it’s like to have an attraction without describing gory details.

(2) Why wouldn’t a person let their kids go over to the house of a person who watched gay porn? This really puzzles me. The great majority of fathers in America, for better or worse, struggle with some form of pornography. You’re saying that kids would be allowed to go over to those houses, but not to the house of someone who has struggled with gay pornography? Why?

Comments like these make me wonder whether you really think that the content of my attractions IS terribly shameful. Perhaps this is the non-utilitarian argument you have in mind: SSA is shameful, and shameful things belong in the dark.

It’s not shameful, though. This is something that my kids will learn from me, whether or not I ever “go public” with any of this stuff.

I don’t have such a need. You are the one who has hypothesized such a need for me, because you cannot imagine that I have relatively pure motives.

Well, it’s not that it is SHAMEFUL to have sexual proclivities that go betond the norm, but why advertise it? My husband and I are seriously bummed that the man has to finish inside the woman every single time, especially becUse before we knew about that, we had quite an eclectic sex life. But I’m not ABOUT to write a book about how much we love bjs and our struggles to live without them and then show it to my kids. It’s just too much information for a kid to have about their own parents’ sex life. Ew. I am not going to force that mental picture of me and their dad into my children’s minds. And don’t even get me started on how humiliating it would be for them if their friends found out…and they would.

Also, if I knew that my child’s friend’s dad struggled with porn or with some type of sexually deviant behavior or proclivity, I would NOT let him go over to that house. I would find an excuse. People struggling privately is one thing. When they make their deviance a matter of public record, that it when I as a parent need to draw the line. Same thing if I found out my child’s friend’s mom struggles with the urge to set houses on fire and burn them to the ground be ause she wrote a damn book about it: “Arson and Me: Beating the need to watch the world burn.” I’m NOT going to let my kids just hang out at their house. Once that parent makes these things public, I as a parent need to protect my child from possible danger and bad influences.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Well, it’s not that it is SHAMEFUL to have sexual proclivities that go betond the norm, but why advertise it? My husband and I are seriously bummed that the man has to finish inside the woman every single time, especially becUse before we knew about that, we had quite an eclectic sex life. But I’m not ABOUT to write a book about how much we love bjs and our struggles to live without them and then show it to my kids. It’s just too much information for a kid to have about their own parents’ sex life. Ew. I am not going to force that mental picture of me and their dad into my children’s minds. And don’t even get me started on how humiliating it would be for them if their friends found out…and they would.

It seems like you’re thinking of SSA as a purely sexual hangup, like a fetish or something. It’s a much bigger thing than that. The core of SSA, for me, is not that I want sex with some type of object; it’s that I want intimacy with men. There’s nothing wrong with that desire, since God made me for (non-sexual, non-romantic) intimacy with men. But most Christian SSA men feel very, very deeply – and wrongly – that their desire for intimacy with other men is bad and shameful.

I feel like this is nothing like simply wanting to engage in some sort of sex act.

Also, if I knew that my child’s friend’s dad struggled with porn or with some type of sexually deviant behavior or proclivity, I would NOT let him go over to that house. I would find an excuse. People struggling privately is one thing. When they make their deviance a matter of public record, that it when I as a parent need to draw the line. Same thing if I found out my child’s friend’s mom struggles with the urge to set houses on fire and burn them to the ground be ause she wrote a damn book about it: “Arson and Me: Beating the need to watch the world burn.” I’m NOT going to let my kids just hang out at their house. Once that parent makes these things public, I as a parent need to protect my child from possible danger and bad influences.

(Note: I’m leaving aside the implication here that all SSA men have proclivities that could pose a danger to children.)

This just puzzles me. The person likely to act out some perversion is the person who hides it. I mean, certainly, don’t let your kids over to the house of someone who doesn’t have reasonably well-adjusted children, or to someone who you don’t trust. But, supposing a person is open about his SSA (say, in church), this is actually an indication that he is more trustworthy than most people, not less.

Let me give you a comparison: Nearly every man experiences some level of attraction (whether he will admit it or not) to certain teenage girls after they have gone through puberty. This is a perfectly natural thing, though of course it would be extraordinarily reprehensible to act on. So would you propose that teenage girls never be allowed over to *any *man’s house while the man is home?

 

[LaSainte]

It seems like you’re thinking of SSA as a purely sexual hangup, like a fetish or something. It’s a much bigger thing than that. The core of SSA, for me, is not that I want sex with some type of object; it’s that I want intimacy with men. There’s nothing wrong with that desire, since God made me for (non-sexual, non-romantic) intimacy with men. But most Christian SSA men feel very, very deeply – and wrongly – that their desire for intimacy with other men is bad and shameful.

I feel like this is nothing like simply wanting to engage in some sort of sex act.

(Note: I’m leaving aside the implication here that all SSA men have proclivities that could pose a danger to children.)

This just puzzles me. The person likely to act out some perversion is the person who hides it. I mean, certainly, don’t let your kids over to the house of someone who doesn’t have reasonably well-adjusted children, or to someone who you don’t trust. But, supposing a person is open about his SSA (say, in church), this is actually an indication that he is more trustworthy than most people, not less.

Let me give you a comparison: Nearly every man experiences some level of attraction (whether he will admit it or not) to certain teenage girls after they have gone through puberty. This is a perfectly natural thing, though of course it would be extraordinarily reprehensible to act on. So would you propose that teenage girls never be allowed over to *any *man’s house while the man is home?

Well, I can’t speak to your particular case, but the idea that you just want intimacy with men (a slap on the back and an “atta boy”), doesn’t necessarily have to translate into homosexual feelings. I don’t understand this. Although, I’m sure there are a lot of factors that go into these feelings, I think there is probably a biological component. Not every guy who has an absentee father or needs a guy’s night out has homosexual feelings.

And I would actually be much more likely to let my children go to the house of an openly gay couple than to the house of a man who had written a book about struggling with his sexual attraction toward men but was married with children. I think that writing a book about it shows a lack of respect for one’s children and their feelings, as well as a need for attention, as well as many unresolved psychological issues that I would not feel comfortable exposing my children to.

And maybe you think that almost every man is attracted to teenage girls. I would disagree with that, but let us say it is true. If that man wrote a book about it, and his daily struggles with his lust for teenage girls, I would have to be INSANE to allow my daughter to go to his house. INSANE. How can you not see this?

Writing about it, identifying it, being public about it-all of this suggests that you are nowhere near putting this behind you. Basically, you are just a bisexual guy who married a girl. Isn’t this quite common?

Your insistence on writing a book rather than a blog is what I find strange, because it is seeking some kind of recognition for this. A pat on the back? Money? Notoriety? Your family will be humiliated, teased, ostracized and ANGRY at you for bringing it all on. If you have sons, they will be called gay. They will at some point probably think they ARE gay. They will get into physical altercations at school trying to defend you, or they will just agree with everything other people say about you. They will wonder why you didn’t just go out and be gay instead of marrying a woman and then dragging the entire family through your mental and emotional homosexual ups and downs.

Do you think that if someone is battling feelings of pedophilia, that it would not be immensely painful and humiliating for their family if they wrote a book about it? Many, many more people will be more likely to read a blog than go out and buy a book about this in today’s society, and nobody is going to bat an eye at the fact that you wanted to spare your family the pain and embarrassment of going public about it.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

LaSainte,

Let me take a deep breath, and begin.

Well, I can’t speak to your particular case, but the idea that you just want intimacy with men (a slap on the back and an “atta boy”), doesn’t necessarily have to translate into homosexual feelings. I don’t understand this. Although, I’m sure there are a lot of factors that go into these feelings, I think there is probably a biological component. Not every guy who has an absentee father or needs a guy’s night out has homosexual feelings.

You’re really not getting this concept of intimacy. A slap on the back and “atta boy” is the absurd and utterly empty extreme to which intimacy between men has descended. I’m talking about physical and emotional closeness. Some perspective: a couple hundred years ago (and even in the mid-1900s), when the prohibition on same-sex sexuality was stronger than it is now, men regularly were quite physically affectionate with each other: for example, close friends often slept in beds with each other, spoke about their love for each other, etc. Compare the relationship of Jonathan and David in the Bible, or – better yet – the obviously intimate relationship between Jesus and John.

We do not understand these relationships in today’s culture. Consider the image of a grown man, John, lying with his head leaned on Jesus’s chest. Don’t we immediately think that something sexual must be up, here. But of course, there wasn’t anything even vaguely sexual going on. John (and Jesus, most likely) had needs for love and affection from another man. There is nothing impure about this.

But today everything like this is understood sexually. I don’t need an “atta boy”. I need a real, close, affectionate hug. I need to be able to talk about my feelings bluntly. Of course, I have these things with my wife, and blessed be God! But my wife is not a man, and so it’s different.

Maybe there is a biological component, sure. But I think the biological component would simply make a man feel this need for affection more than other men, not desire it sexually.

And maybe you think that almost every man is attracted to teenage girls. I would disagree with that, but let us say it is true. If that man wrote a book about it, and his daily struggles with his lust for teenage girls, I would have to be INSANE to allow my daughter to go to his house. INSANE. How can you not see this?

I see. So when I say “attraction”, you hear “lust”. I don’t mean lust, though. I mean the perception of desirability and beauty in a person. God made women amazingly beautiful, and it is sublimely beautiful the way that a girl blossoms, as it were, into a woman. That is a lovely thing. What is so awful about a man seeing that a girl is attractive? If he struggles with purity, the moment he notices this, he will know that he should put it out of his mind, and he is very capable of doing so.

You seem to think that every man who has struggled with purity is a sex addict. But nearly every man struggles with purity, and very few men are sex addicts.

From my perspective, our society is just outrageously repressed about some of this stuff. How can we say that it is OK for a man to find women attractive, but somehow scandalous for a man to find a 16-year-old girl attractive? The bodies of the two are almost identical!

Attraction is not action.

Or else **all **men should be avoided.

 

[Joe_5859]

Several people seem to be getting hung up on the book idea. I’m inclined to think as Boundless said that it was just one suggestion and not really the central point of the thread. But even so, there are articles on this very website where married couples disclose their “return to chastity” in their pre-marriage relationship. I haven’t seen people get up in arms over those such books nor encourage people to shun them in order to protect their children.

I sort of see a sad affirmation in this thread that Prodigal Son’s and Boundless’s fears are not baseless. I guess my take-away point is that it would be good to foster an environment without fear. Because that’s not where we’re at right now. And fear is paralyzing.

I understand people’s reticence about people plastering their personal business everywhere. I’ve heard my share of chastity presentations that I’ve thought shared TMI in regards to the speaker’s past sexual activities (and these people were all heterosexual). But the fact that some people step over the line doesn’t negate the possibility of handling this topic properly. Obviously we do that already with regards to sex and chastity. No one is arguing for an indiscriminate dissemination of information.

To bring out the alcoholism analogy again (which doesn’t compare in most ways to homosexuality but is apt in this instance), those who are alcoholics don’t all announce it from street corners to any who will listen. They probably don’t share it with everyone they meet. But neither do they feel the paralyzing fear that this fact must never be known by anyone. They can share it in the right circumstances. But they won’t go proclaiming it at little Timmy’s 5th birthday party. And they might even write a book about their experience.

 

[Fairwinds]

…

The fact of the matter is, at least on average, if children are going to be psychologically scarred by such jeers, then it’s because they haven’t had a strong foundation which gives them confidence that the bullies aren’t right to tease them. … You seem intent on raising your children so that they’ll know, when bullies come knocking about their father’s struggles, that the bullies are the ones with the deeper problems, not their father, not they themselves…

how do you tell a 10 year old that daddy likes other men in some sane way?

 

[Boundless]

First, I want to say to Joe 5859 that I agree with everything you posted, and I wanted to thank you properly for your welcome earlier too. I’m sure that Prodigal_Son agrees with me that you are a real light, a breath of fresh air, in this thread.

Fairwinds, there are sane ways to teach your children about such things. My wife was taught about sex in a tactful Catholic manner, for example, at a very young age and never felt scarred by it, or squicked out by it. There are tactful ways to explain just about anything, even to a child, while leaving out the gory details (children do not need to know, for example, about specific sex acts people might be tempted to do, but that’s not necessary in order to get the point across).

It’s our modern society that has decided that children are so incapable of dealing with just about anything of a serious nature, and that certain topics are just so inherently dirty no matter how tactfully handled that children must not be exposed to them. I believe that attitude is actually part of the problem with why, when kids grow up and then suddenly have sexual issues foisted upon them not only by culture but their own developing bodies and minds, all sorts of problems break loose for the children, who have all this hit them pretty much at once. That’s related to what I have to say below.

From my perspective, our society is just outrageously repressed about some of this stuff. …

Attraction is not action.

I think the first sentence, and society’s resulting inability to grasp the second, sums up everything that’s wrong with our society when it comes to sex. I dare say that even the sexual revolution, the rise in the incidence of homosexual relations, and all that can be traced to that repression. What is repressed ends up unaddressed, like a spring coiling tighter and tighter. The Western society, for the past two hundred years, had become more and more repressed, not because they rejected sexual sin (which is legitimately rejected) but because they rejected all notions of talking about sexual topics and struggles, they relegated the topic of sex to the closet, not to be talked about openly even in a respectful way that did not condone sin. Guess what? When closets get too full, everything comes spilling out into the room at once.

So we can go ahead, we can refuse to talk about certain things, we can bury our heads in the sand and act like hiding it makes it go away. Instead of cleaning out the closet bit by bit, which requires opening it and bringing those issues out into the open as they come, we can just keep cramming every little issue into that closet until the door bursts off the hinges and the entire house (society) is filled with trash and junk. And of course, then, in perhaps the biggest stroke of irony, those who commanded the repression, who never wanted the closet door opened long enough to clean it on a regular basis, can blame the ones who wanted to be more open all along for the resulting explosion. Go figure.