B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
Why is it hypocrisy?
- Status
M
Malachi4U
Guest
Theophilus,
Celibacy in the priesthood is preferred and there is no doubt about that. St. Paul wrote that it was preferred and Jesus led us by example!
Now, preferred does not mean exclusive. The Catholic Church does in fact allow married priests and allways has. The Catholic Church has thousands upon thousands of married priests and will continue to have them. It is only the Bishop of Rome and the Catholics that follow him that limit married clergy.
The RCC allowed married clergy for hundreds of years before limiting it. We even had 39 married Popes. Married clergy in no way hurt the Church any more then celibate priests do.
The ‘Roman’ rite was able to (mostly) limit clergy to celibacy for the following reasons:
A person can fully devote themselves to God. (No other reason is needed is it?)
It is cheaper on the community for support.
Limits scandals from married priests.
There was an amble supply a clergy willing to be celibate!
Would married priests help some of the problems in our ‘Roman’ rite? Yes! It would immediately increase the number of priests dramatically. Many married men would love to become priests. Many priests would no longer have to stop performing their duties if they get married.
Drawbacks to married priest? They will cost more to support. They will have less time for their duties due to a family. New scandals will arise.
We could still have celibacy for priests as an option. We could also limit bishops to celibate priests or priests with no children under the age of 18 years old.
Our Church had married clergy for hundreds of years and it thrived. We have had celibate priests and it thrived too. Celibacy is a rule of the Church and not an issue of Faith and Morals. As a rule the Church can change it as often as she wants to. Faith and Morals cannot be changed or deleted.
The Church is Christ’s body and will survive no matter what. Christ promised to be with her till the end of time. I believe with married priests she will save more souls as we will have more clergy to evangelize and to spread Gods Word. Of course it may take two married priests to do the job of one celibate priest as a married priest must be dedicated to supporting his marriage covenant between his wife and God as well.
The RCC has married clergy today.
A prisoner of Christ
Celibacy in the priesthood is preferred and there is no doubt about that. St. Paul wrote that it was preferred and Jesus led us by example!
Now, preferred does not mean exclusive. The Catholic Church does in fact allow married priests and allways has. The Catholic Church has thousands upon thousands of married priests and will continue to have them. It is only the Bishop of Rome and the Catholics that follow him that limit married clergy.
The RCC allowed married clergy for hundreds of years before limiting it. We even had 39 married Popes. Married clergy in no way hurt the Church any more then celibate priests do.
The ‘Roman’ rite was able to (mostly) limit clergy to celibacy for the following reasons:
A person can fully devote themselves to God. (No other reason is needed is it?)
It is cheaper on the community for support.
Limits scandals from married priests.
There was an amble supply a clergy willing to be celibate!
Code:
Today we do not educate or participate in the Church like our ancestors did. As a result we have fewer men willing to become ‘celibate’ priests. Our parishes are closing, remaining parishes are getting bigger, Catholics are leaving the Church, our priests are becoming fewer and fewer in number worldwide. This is not an America only problem.Drawbacks to married priest? They will cost more to support. They will have less time for their duties due to a family. New scandals will arise.
We could still have celibacy for priests as an option. We could also limit bishops to celibate priests or priests with no children under the age of 18 years old.
Our Church had married clergy for hundreds of years and it thrived. We have had celibate priests and it thrived too. Celibacy is a rule of the Church and not an issue of Faith and Morals. As a rule the Church can change it as often as she wants to. Faith and Morals cannot be changed or deleted.
The Church is Christ’s body and will survive no matter what. Christ promised to be with her till the end of time. I believe with married priests she will save more souls as we will have more clergy to evangelize and to spread Gods Word. Of course it may take two married priests to do the job of one celibate priest as a married priest must be dedicated to supporting his marriage covenant between his wife and God as well.
The RCC has married clergy today.
A prisoner of Christ
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
I know no reason to believe this. To my knowledge, the ordained have never been routinely allowed to become married.
F
Funky_Cedars
Guest
i find this kinda surprising. not only don’t i know too many kids who are actually considering the priesthood, i know of no married men who are bemoaning the fact that they missed out on the priesthood because they were as deeply called to be a husband.
i’m just not ready to put to much money on the bet that celibacy is the one, and only, reason a ton of guys haven’t or didn’t become priests.
oh! the CCC quote in your signature,…that thought is sooo eastern. yeah, Daddy has this way incredible plan for us; He wants for us to really really really BE with Him. His love makes Him nutty that way. the concept also magnifies the role Mom plays in all of this; she becomes not just the point at which God comes to us, but, having been given to us by Him, she becomes the point at which we go to Him, too. now to a western mind this may sound just - a - bit - out - there for comfort*. *be assured that this is completely kosher and does not teach that any of us will be elevated to our own godships, a la john smith. nor does it mean to imply that God will be increased, decreased or otherwise affected; He is, was and ever will be. but it is another mystery by which we can ponder the vast depth of His love for us.
thanks for listening, love and peace, terry
W
Weezir
Guest
Funky Cedars:
i find this kinda surprising. not only don’t i know too many kids who are actually considering the priesthood, i know of no married men who are bemoaning the fact that they missed out on the priesthood because they were as deeply called to be a husband.
i’m just not ready to put to much money on the bet that celibacy is the one, and only, reason a ton of guys haven’t or didn’t become priests.
My husband is one of the many that would love to be a priest! If it wasn’t for us (his family) that would be his vocation. He will be starting the diaconate program this fall. They have talked to him about celibacy if something happened to me…and trust me … For him, that is NOT A PROBLEM!If he had the belief in God and the Catholic chuch that he does now, back then, we wouldn’t be here with him today. However, he firmly believes, as do I, that priests should not be married. Will we ever see it happen? Maybe not in our day…We hope not in our day…We will just have to drive farther to mass.
Weezir
M
misericordie
Guest
I really Hope the Church stays catholic, and does not allow priests to marry in the latin/Roman rite.
F
Funky_Cedars
Guest
am so glad to hear it!My husband is one of the many that would love to be a priest!.. He will be starting the diaconate program this fall… If he had the belief in God and the Catholic chuch that he does now, back then, we wouldn’t be here with him today.
as you note, tho, it took some time for him to hear the calling. hopefully thru his work in the deaconate he can help encourage some younger guys to listen closely and to better discern the call, and not to ‘fear’ it (or its demands), when they hear Daddy calling them to His priesthood. and not just your husband, as i note he is now the first i’ve become aware of. as more men become more than just vocal about the desirability of being consecrated to the Lord, more boys will be willing to conscrate thenselves to Him.
God Bless your husband for encouraging vocations, Gods Bless you for supporting him as he supports Him. its wonderful to hear such good news!
S
space_ghost
Guest
not logical given the history of the church, both west and east, and certainly not traditional, and not supported by scripture either… it’s not broken… doesn’t require a fix… 
H
Hesychios
Guest
As I alluded to in another post way down in the list, I was discerning a priestly vocation and I decided instead to get married.
As a Roman Catholic I thought the issue was settled, in fact it still is because I would not be permitted to be ordained a Roman Catholic priest. I still wish I could be a priest, but now I am getting old and it looks like nothing will change in the Western church.
I am certain that there are at least as many married men who would still like to be a priest as there are priests who wish they would have had a chance to be married. A friend of mine in the parish I belong to is in his mid 50’s and that’s his story, he’s a grandfather now and I am sure he would have made a fine priest.
Imagine that when I was young and interested in girls the thought that I could date and still want to be a priest would have been so wonderfully natural. I wouldn’t have felt the regret I feel for turning my back on a vocation. Over the years I have met a few men who considered the priesthood when young, some were in seminary for a few years. The usual reason they left the seminary was a desire to be married. Actually, I think that most of the men who stuck it out to ordination still had a desire for a wife, that is why we have almost as many former priests in the USA as priests. (I would like to see some statistics on former priests, if anyone has access to the info please post it.)
Let’s face it, people don’t leave the priesthood with an overwhelming desire to be an accountant.
In Christ Always,
Michael
As a Roman Catholic I thought the issue was settled, in fact it still is because I would not be permitted to be ordained a Roman Catholic priest. I still wish I could be a priest, but now I am getting old and it looks like nothing will change in the Western church.
I am certain that there are at least as many married men who would still like to be a priest as there are priests who wish they would have had a chance to be married. A friend of mine in the parish I belong to is in his mid 50’s and that’s his story, he’s a grandfather now and I am sure he would have made a fine priest.
Imagine that when I was young and interested in girls the thought that I could date and still want to be a priest would have been so wonderfully natural. I wouldn’t have felt the regret I feel for turning my back on a vocation. Over the years I have met a few men who considered the priesthood when young, some were in seminary for a few years. The usual reason they left the seminary was a desire to be married. Actually, I think that most of the men who stuck it out to ordination still had a desire for a wife, that is why we have almost as many former priests in the USA as priests. (I would like to see some statistics on former priests, if anyone has access to the info please post it.)
Let’s face it, people don’t leave the priesthood with an overwhelming desire to be an accountant.
In Christ Always,
Michael
M
Malachi4U
Guest
Theophilus,
The RCC has thousands of married priests just in the US alone. A good family friend of mine was one. He is a valid priest but he could not perform licit duties. (I think I said that right.) A priest is a priest for life regardless of whether he marries after being ordained. He just cannot perform licit duties under our current cannon. But cannon can be changed and has in the past. Remember, for the first part of our early Church priests were allowed to be married.
So our RCC has a history (I dare not call it a tradition) of allowing priests to marry if they stop performing the job. Priests are human just like you and me and sometimes their journey in life leads them to marry. I do not know what a priest must do to get married such as writing a letter to the bishop, etc. I just thank all the priests who tried to be celibate but decided that marriage was the path they needed to take. At least they gave it a shot. Many do not.
Remember, I do think celibacy is preferred. But married priests have, can and will continue to be a great asset to our RCC.
Now to point out some wording. I said the RCC does allow married priests today. I did not say that the RCC allows ordained celibate priests to marry and still perform duties as a priest. What I said, or perhaps poorly said, was that married men can become valid and licit RCC priests and we have over 100 of them today in the US alone. If the wife dies then the priest must remain celibate to perform his duties in a licit manner. These married priests by the way came home to the Catholic Church from another denomination as previously ordained clergy.
A prisoner of Christ
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
You can call me tee.
I do not dispute the fact that ordination is accessible to a married man (and have never done so), so I will not address those parts of your post.
Frankly, I do not know the numbers of priests who have become married, nor more to the point, the numbers who have become *licitly * married. My understanding is that Paul VI was rather generous in granting dispensations for the ordained to marry, but that the current holy father has not. (I know only a handful of priests who have attempted marriage, all within the last 20 years, and none of them was dispensed to do so. They have all preferred to attempt marriage outside the Church).
What you said was:
I still have no reason to believe this would be the case. As you point out, above, the Church has a long history of allowing the ordained to marry, providing they give up their priestly functions. (And I stand by my implication that it is not a routine process, but rather an exceptional process, requiring dispensation from the Apostolic See)
K
KathyT
Guest
The church should never allow priests to marry. If a person refuses to hear God’s calling just because he can’t have sex or get married then that is between the man and his God. As for me, I pray daily for vocations. As a woman I cannot be a priest, but I can certainly pray.
D
Deacon2006
Guest
The only possibility for marriage is between opposite gendered laity not committed to religious life (monks or nuns etc.)
The possibility that a married lay man might be ordained in the latin rite is a fact that takes place today in only the most extreme exceptions which usually revolve around the conversion of an anglican/espiscopalian priest.
It is doubtful that these exceptions will ever be expanded beyond the conversions for Christians in schism and protestants who had already recieved some form of non catholic ordination before converting and even then it will never be an automatic right. The call to orders must be heard by the man and echoed in the church to be valid.
God Bless
The possibility that a married lay man might be ordained in the latin rite is a fact that takes place today in only the most extreme exceptions which usually revolve around the conversion of an anglican/espiscopalian priest.
It is doubtful that these exceptions will ever be expanded beyond the conversions for Christians in schism and protestants who had already recieved some form of non catholic ordination before converting and even then it will never be an automatic right. The call to orders must be heard by the man and echoed in the church to be valid.
God Bless
L
loyola_rambler
Guest
Wow, lots of strong feelings. But I’m not sure all of these are founded in reality.
I’ve belonged to a parish with a married priest (yes, an Episcopalian convert). His wife was the parish administrator and they had 4 wonderful kids. The family ran the parish and it was a very healthy community. One of the major reasons is that when they did marriage prep or marriage counseling, there was a lot of strong understanding of the problems that couples encounter and the credibility in their counseling was very highly regarded.
I’ve also gone to a parish where the pastor was a priest who had once resigned to get married. Then his wife died and left him with young kids. It was the cardinal who approached this man to return to his vocation (kids and all)…and it was JPII who gave permission for restoration of his orders. Yes, the priest and his kids lived in the suburban parish’s rectory and the parish did a great job supporting the kids to make sure they were getting good child care, a solid education and all the nurturing that an extended family would give. Again…it was a very healthy situation for everyone.
Maybe these are only a couple of examples, but I can speak from personal experience that it was hardly a horrible thing. These men are still priests, under a very “orthodox” cardinal, and no one is concerned that they’re in anyway undermining the priesthood. In fact, the latter priest is very proud that three young men from his parish have been ordained in the last few years.
One last thing to remember is that the One Church–One Child program was started by a Catholic priest from Chicago who adopted not one but four boys and raised them in the rectory. They weren’t sexually abused and they’re not hoodlums living on the street. It’s been over 20 years since Fr. Clements started the program and it’s taken off around the country. It was just one more example that priests as parents isn’t a horrible situation.
Just my two-cents worth, but these aren’t the only examples of a married clergy in the Latin rite of the Catholic Church…they’re just the tip of the iceberg.
I’ve belonged to a parish with a married priest (yes, an Episcopalian convert). His wife was the parish administrator and they had 4 wonderful kids. The family ran the parish and it was a very healthy community. One of the major reasons is that when they did marriage prep or marriage counseling, there was a lot of strong understanding of the problems that couples encounter and the credibility in their counseling was very highly regarded.
I’ve also gone to a parish where the pastor was a priest who had once resigned to get married. Then his wife died and left him with young kids. It was the cardinal who approached this man to return to his vocation (kids and all)…and it was JPII who gave permission for restoration of his orders. Yes, the priest and his kids lived in the suburban parish’s rectory and the parish did a great job supporting the kids to make sure they were getting good child care, a solid education and all the nurturing that an extended family would give. Again…it was a very healthy situation for everyone.
Maybe these are only a couple of examples, but I can speak from personal experience that it was hardly a horrible thing. These men are still priests, under a very “orthodox” cardinal, and no one is concerned that they’re in anyway undermining the priesthood. In fact, the latter priest is very proud that three young men from his parish have been ordained in the last few years.
One last thing to remember is that the One Church–One Child program was started by a Catholic priest from Chicago who adopted not one but four boys and raised them in the rectory. They weren’t sexually abused and they’re not hoodlums living on the street. It’s been over 20 years since Fr. Clements started the program and it’s taken off around the country. It was just one more example that priests as parents isn’t a horrible situation.
Just my two-cents worth, but these aren’t the only examples of a married clergy in the Latin rite of the Catholic Church…they’re just the tip of the iceberg.
N
naprous
Guest
For those who have asked if there are priests who left the priesthood in order to get married who would still wish to be priests, check out www.corpus.org, and www.marriedpriests.org
I can’t remember exactly what Corpus stands for (I think it’s an acronym…), but I seem to recall something like “ready to serve” being part of it.
And for those of you interested in married priests in the middle ages, there was a diocese in the high Pyrenees (Pallars) that continued to have married priests at least into the 14th century.
For what it’s worth, I’m in favor of allowing priests to marry. Not everyone who is called to ministry is also called to celibacy. Those who are always have that option.
Naprous
I can’t remember exactly what Corpus stands for (I think it’s an acronym…), but I seem to recall something like “ready to serve” being part of it.
And for those of you interested in married priests in the middle ages, there was a diocese in the high Pyrenees (Pallars) that continued to have married priests at least into the 14th century.
For what it’s worth, I’m in favor of allowing priests to marry. Not everyone who is called to ministry is also called to celibacy. Those who are always have that option.
Naprous
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
The existence of these groups is by no means news to me. There is no disputing that there are ordained men who have married (or attempted marriage illicitly) and would still function as priests.
There is also no disputing that the Church does not wish them to do so.
For me, I stand with the Church.
tee.
A
Andreas_Hofer
Guest
Well, seeing as how Jesus chose a married man to be His rock and the first pope, maybe you should reconsider your views on Jesus’ opposition to a married clergy.I voted No.
Peace and all good,
Thomas2
A
Andreas_Hofer
Guest
While I don’t want to dispute any numbers, since I don’t know the facts on every country, I do want to dispute the conclusion in general because I know the way “Catholic” countries in Europe work. For example, France has a church-going population of either 3 or 6% (I can’t remember exactly which, but both are low enough. Latin American countries are probably not as drastic, but Hispanics often have an extra-liturgical piety (especially in Mexico, with its history of anti-clericalism), meaning that, while Catholics there may be slightly better than the in-name-only Europeans, their numbers in these tables are also skewed. A general rule of thumb is that if a country is considered to be traditionally Catholic, its number of orthodox practicing Catholics is dramatically smaller than its on paper total of those who are willing to mark the Catholic box on the census.
A
Andreas_Hofer
Guest
I get to cram all my posts in together since I’m the only one that stays up this late. 
I think it’s very possible for someone to be called to both the married state and a priestly vocation. Therefore the Church may be turning away some legitimate calls by not accepting married men into the priesthood. But I also consider the celibate clergy a tremendous blessing and witness. So even though I’m stepping down the married path at the expense of pursuing a vocation, I still don’t want the Church to changer her discipline.
I think it’s very possible for someone to be called to both the married state and a priestly vocation. Therefore the Church may be turning away some legitimate calls by not accepting married men into the priesthood. But I also consider the celibate clergy a tremendous blessing and witness. So even though I’m stepping down the married path at the expense of pursuing a vocation, I still don’t want the Church to changer her discipline.
H
Hesychios
Guest
Andreas Hofer:
Thank you for noticing my post.
I was thinking that if you are correct, and a country like France has only 3 to 6 percent active practicing population their ratio should be between 1:60 and 1:120 priest to believer which is outstanding!
I think we might be able to get some priests from France and fire all of our married convert priests too.
This should set a lot of minds at ease!
Let’s get rid of those married convert priests as quick as we can and restore the purity of the Latin Rite clerical ranks.
About two or three years ago (maybe longer) the church forced 18 married Roman Catholic priests in Slovakia to become Byzantine Catholic priests. It’s a good thing there were Byzantine churches around to force them into, they might have had to fire them!
On the other hand, perhaps not.
Hi Andreas!
Thank you for noticing my post.
I was thinking that if you are correct, and a country like France has only 3 to 6 percent active practicing population their ratio should be between 1:60 and 1:120 priest to believer which is outstanding!
I think we might be able to get some priests from France and fire all of our married convert priests too.
This should set a lot of minds at ease!
Let’s get rid of those married convert priests as quick as we can and restore the purity of the Latin Rite clerical ranks.
About two or three years ago (maybe longer) the church forced 18 married Roman Catholic priests in Slovakia to become Byzantine Catholic priests. It’s a good thing there were Byzantine churches around to force them into, they might have had to fire them!
On the other hand, perhaps not.
- Status