C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Actually, there are about 1.2 billion Catholics, about 150 milllion Orthodox, and about 1 billion other Christians.
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It isn’t long. I hope you’ll read the whole document, and I’m happy to agree with you.
In many ways, you can see it is hard to divide the two. If I attack Pope Benedict XVI, would you not feel attacked yourself?
I think there were many Catholics who misrepresented Catholic teaching during Luther’s time, as well, and they also damaged Christianity. They, and we, all share some blame.
I couldn’t agree more. So, instead of sniping at each other, I think we should all work harder at overcoming our differences.
I hope you have taken my responses to you in that way.
Jon
I don’t. Never did. My dad was a pastor. I loved him, but never venerated him. A.L. Barry, late past president of the LCMS said that the Lord’s Supper is the center of Lutheran worship.
Misconceptions on both side continue to divide what Christ wants united. As our sin blinds us to the presence of the Holy Spirit in each other, let me suggest that since we find it so difficult at times to take each other’s hand, that we both take His hand, and allow Him to lead us.
Jon
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I agree. I want a world devoted to Christ.
However, just as you find Luther justified in pointing out problems with the Church I think you should accept others pointing out problems with Luther.
P
Peter_J
Guest
I think it’s more a matter of asking ourselves why we’ve all been so obsessed with Augustine’s theology, to the neglect of other great Church Fathers.Good for them. Now perhaps they’re both ready to re-read Augustine and ask themselves why they ever departed from his great theology?
S
Steadfast
Guest
Note:
Luther wrote the Smalcald Articles.
And I don’t think anyone would have any problem at all with you “pointing out problems” with Luther, but you’re not doing that.
You’re misreading him and then demanding that we refute your misreading.
Luther wrote the Smalcald Articles.
And I don’t think anyone would have any problem at all with you “pointing out problems” with Luther, but you’re not doing that.
You’re misreading him and then demanding that we refute your misreading.
If you wish to point out the problems you percieve with Luther’s interpretation of scripture, ie, The Eucharist and Transubstantiation, the doctrine of Justfication, his views on the mass, indulgences, purgatory, intercession of the saints and the BVM, the primacy of the pope, fine. Let’s talk. It is why we are here. And I will point out the problems I percieve with the Catholic views on same.
I don’t think it helps, however, in our agreed upon desire for a world devoted to Christ, for us to misinterpret each other’s church’s view. I frankly don’t care what other protestants say the Catholics Church believes, and I try not to misinterpret it myself.
I just ask that you respond in kind. Disagree with what Luther really believed, not what someone else, who may be hostile to him, says he believes.
I, and some others, Lutheran and not, have tried with significant documentation to inform you that your understanding of the quote from Luther’s letter to Melanchton is incorrect. Just as I believe, for example, that Catholics do not believe, and in fact do not worship saints and the BVM, I ask the same respect in return that the interpretation I and others have presented you in this matter are correct as well.
His Peace,
Jon
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Peter_J
Guest
O
onenow1
Guest
Hi, All
=onenow1 “Martin was very educated probably had many good qualities in exegising scripture. The big problem was he broke his vows. I think in the end he regretted, having disobeyed the church. He opened a pandoras box, and could not reseal it.
I, personally am of the belief he repented in the end .”
From: catholic treasure chest
Martin Luther looked around and saw the damage that ‘private interpretation’ of Holy Scripture was doing to his ‘reformation’, and made the following remarks…
“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet” De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.” Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.
“We concede – as we must – that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?” Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER’S WORKS, St. Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961, 304.
All of this and much more was said by the founder of Sola Scriptura, just a short time later, as he surveyed the damage it had caused, and was continuing to cause. By this time, Zwingli, had run in this direction, Munzer in that direction, Calvin in yet another direction, all of them scattering the sheep and taking their flocks with them. Luther had let the cat out of the bag and he was helpless to put it back in. He had started something that he was powerless to stop.
“Once you open the door to error, you cannot close it.” How true. Luther had set a prime example.
Some other interesting remarks made by Martin Luther…
The Blessed Virgin Mary…
“The great thing is none other than that she became the Mother of God; in which process so many and such great gifts were bestowed upon her that no one is able to comprehend them. Thereupon follows all honor, all blessedness, and the fact that in the whole race of men only one person is above all the rest, one to whom no one else is equal. For that reason her dignity is crowded into a single phrase when we call her the Mother of God; no one can say greater things of her or to her, even if he had as many tongues as leaves and blades of grass, as the stars in heaven and sands on the seashore. It must also be meditated in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.” [End Quotes catholic treasure chest]
peace, onenow1
=onenow1 “Martin was very educated probably had many good qualities in exegising scripture. The big problem was he broke his vows. I think in the end he regretted, having disobeyed the church. He opened a pandoras box, and could not reseal it.
I, personally am of the belief he repented in the end .”
From: catholic treasure chest
Martin Luther looked around and saw the damage that ‘private interpretation’ of Holy Scripture was doing to his ‘reformation’, and made the following remarks…
“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet” De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.” Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.
“We concede – as we must – that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?” Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER’S WORKS, St. Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961, 304.
All of this and much more was said by the founder of Sola Scriptura, just a short time later, as he surveyed the damage it had caused, and was continuing to cause. By this time, Zwingli, had run in this direction, Munzer in that direction, Calvin in yet another direction, all of them scattering the sheep and taking their flocks with them. Luther had let the cat out of the bag and he was helpless to put it back in. He had started something that he was powerless to stop.
“Once you open the door to error, you cannot close it.” How true. Luther had set a prime example.
Some other interesting remarks made by Martin Luther…
The Blessed Virgin Mary…
“The great thing is none other than that she became the Mother of God; in which process so many and such great gifts were bestowed upon her that no one is able to comprehend them. Thereupon follows all honor, all blessedness, and the fact that in the whole race of men only one person is above all the rest, one to whom no one else is equal. For that reason her dignity is crowded into a single phrase when we call her the Mother of God; no one can say greater things of her or to her, even if he had as many tongues as leaves and blades of grass, as the stars in heaven and sands on the seashore. It must also be meditated in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.” [End Quotes catholic treasure chest]
- Die Erklarung des Magnificat - 1521
peace, onenow1
A
adstrinity
Guest
Really, this one was around LONG before Martin Luther; he cannot take the credit for this.
O
onenow1
Guest
Originally Posted by onenow1 … some teach that Christ is not God…
Peace, onenow1
onenow1, The point in Martins diatribe was that everyone was self interpreting the scriptures, not that it was not around earlier.
Peace, onenow1
P
Peter_J
Guest
You just reminded me of a great line from the Simpsons episode “Mr. Spritz Goes to Washington”.
“Maybe Bob Dole should run. Bob Dole thinks Bob Dole should. Actually, Bob Dole just wants to hear Bob Dole talk about Bob Dole. BOB DOLE!”
S
Steadfast
Guest
“That’s Bob Dole’s peanut butter!”
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I didn’t misread anything, I quoted him. I don’t deny that other comments of Luther’s contradict some of the quotes I posted.
However, a key point in the OP that was ignored is that Luther clearly had no problem changing scripture to fit his interpretation.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
While this is a bit of an overstatement, particularly in regards to papal primacy and a couple of other issues, I agree that there are vast areas of agreement between Lutherans and Catholics that we can build on.
Actually, I believe your OP is based on your interpretation of that quote. But that’s ok, as it is your OP, and it started a lively and informative discussion.
This is most gracious, and I sincerely thank you
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree, hopefully, agreeably.
Luther’s views of scripture are a whole other thread, but I’ll just say the books he questioned were a source of debate as to their canonicity prior to Luther. It is also a fact that did include all of DC books in his translation, and considered then worthy of reading and study.
It may be a reasonable assertion, but I don’t think it is more true of Luther than any of the rest of us. I’ll just say he was a theologian and often discussed scripture in a way I suspect most theologians do.
I want to finish this post with a question for you: we can and have discussed 500 year old history, and we’ve agreed on our desire for unity, and that’s all great, but what do we do now in terms of seeking unity?
Jon
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Great question, although I bet we have different solutions.
I am a Catholic Convert. The desire for unity was not relevant to my conversion, but now it strongly reinforces my decision.
I don’t think true unity is possible without a central teaching authority shared by all Christians.
Still, I’m open to other suggestions. Do you have some suggestions?
T
TertiumQuid
Guest
For your continued studies:
Did Luther say, “Be a sinner and sin boldly”? A Look at Justification By Faith Alone and Good Works in Luther’s Theology
Luther was prone to strong hyperbole. It’s his style, and this statement is a perfect example. Luther doesn’t write analytical theology. He writes profound verbose sentiment driving one to think deeply.
Luther makes a strong hyperbolic comparison between “sinning boldly” and believing and rejoicing in Christ “even more boldly.” When assaulted by the fear and doubt of Christ’s love because of previous sins or the remnants of sin in one’s life, one is thrust back into the arms of Christ “on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins…”. Rather than promoting a license to sin by saying “sin boldly,” Luther’s point is to simply compare the sinner to the perfect savior. Left in our sins we will face nothing but death and damnation. By Christ’s victory over sin, death, and the world, we stand clothed in His righteousness, the recipients of His grace, no matter what we have done.
Regards,
James Swan
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