Mary as an intercessor?

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Church Militant:
NOT SO…
Matthew 7:16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.
HIYA

I agree with your statement, but under what authority do we have to canonize or promote sainthood? Is this by man’s design? Like if a relative died and we (think) because they went to church and proclaimed Jesus as their savior and was a good disciple. Does that make them a saint or allows us to elevate them to such a status. Do you think that we know by what measure GOD will use? and totally have an accurate measuring stick?

BIC

LAUS DEO
 
Intercession while living on earth depends on being IN Christ, in a state of grace which sanctifies the soul, thus allowing the person to ask God something for someone else (we participate in the One Mediatorship of Christ). But in Heaven, the person has the Beatific Vision of God and is united to Him “face to Face” and “knows as he is known,” and in a greater position to ask for someone else (since he does not need anything for himself). Therefore, to ask in Christ one of the Blessed to intercede for us is simply communicated to that someone by Christ since there is no other way that person could know what is going on “down here” than by being shown by Christ.

In the Beatific Vision Christ, within Whom the Blessed are more_, not less, in union, shows the Blessed the petitions of the brethren on earth, as in God all things are seen. This is not difficult for God to do. Thus we can know with absolute certainty that the Saints know the petitions addressed to them in Christ.

Further, asking the intercession of the Saints is realistic humility. God hears everyone’s prayers; He does not thereby grant all that He hears - just as a human father hears all the child pleas of his offspring, but does not always grant them. God grants the prayers of the Just, since they are in a position to be heard and accommodated, their will already being “in sync” with His. The faithful on earth are quite aware that they are not as pure as the Saints in Heaven. Good Christians are not in a state of sin, but they realistically know they are far from being perfectly “in sync” with God’s will, but those in heaven are.

And we are human; which means that we are all in this boat together and not isolated individuals. It is therefore according to our nature created by God to do things together for a common purpose. It is our love for one another that impels us to pray for one another and to want others to pray for us. The Saints are our brothers and sisters who are in God’s Presence; but some people don’t like this interdependence.

The Christian Tradition from the beginning declares that the interest of the Saints in Heaven will be increased a hundredfold, because they will realize then more fully our needs and necessities. St. Jerome (350-420) is a striking witness to this fact. He writes: “If the Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, victories, their triumphs. Moses, one man, obtains God’s pardon for six hundred thousand men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ will they be less powerful? St. Paul says that two hundred and sixty-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in the ship with him. Shall we close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel?” (Adv. Vigil, 6)
 
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FCEGM:
Intercession while living on earth depends on being IN Christ, in a state of grace which sanctifies the soul, thus allowing the person to ask God something for someone else (we participate in the One Mediatorship of Christ). But in Heaven, the person has the Beatific Vision of God and is united to Him “face to Face” and “knows as he is known,” and in a greater position to ask for someone else (since he does not need anything for himself). Therefore, to ask in Christ one of the Blessed to intercede for us is simply communicated to that someone by Christ since there is no other way that person could know what is going on “down here” than by being shown by Christ.

In the Beatific Vision Christ, within Whom the Blessed are more_, not less, in union, shows the Blessed the petitions of the brethren on earth, as in God all things are seen. This is not difficult for God to do. Thus we can know with absolute certainty that the Saints know the petitions addressed to them in Christ.

Further, asking the intercession of the Saints is realistic humility. God hears everyone’s prayers; He does not thereby grant all that He hears - just as a human father hears all the child pleas of his offspring, but does not always grant them. God grants the prayers of the Just, since they are in a position to be heard and accommodated, their will already being “in sync” with His. The faithful on earth are quite aware that they are not as pure as the Saints in Heaven. Good Christians are not in a state of sin, but they realistically know they are far from being perfectly “in sync” with God’s will, but those in heaven are.

And we are human; which means that we are all in this boat together and not isolated individuals. It is therefore according to our nature created by God to do things together for a common purpose. It is our love for one another that impels us to pray for one another and to want others to pray for us. The Saints are our brothers and sisters who are in God’s Presence; but some people don’t like this interdependence.

The Christian Tradition from the beginning declares that the interest of the Saints in Heaven will be increased a hundredfold, because they will realize then more fully our needs and necessities. St. Jerome (350-420) is a striking witness to this fact. He writes: “If the Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, victories, their triumphs. Moses, one man, obtains God’s pardon for six hundred thousand men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ will they be less powerful? St. Paul says that two hundred and sixty-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in the ship with him. Shall we close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel?” (Adv. Vigil, 6)
HIYA

Aren’t we all GOD children (saints) and by such are intercessor for each other, thats why GOD ask us to pray or confess (not necescarily for remission of sin but forgiveness if one sinned against another) to each other? A nuturing body of Christ?

BIC

LAUS DEO
 
Sorry for the double post can you delete one of these?

Thanks

BIC

LAUS DEO
 
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HilaryJ:
I would agree with this statement. No matter what examinations we can make about the outer workings of men, we cannot ever fully know the inner workings of their hearts. Only God Almighty knows this.
True, but God also left us an AUTHORITATIVE Church here on earth to guide us spiritually. I do not believe the Holy Spirit would allow it’s Church to be led astray.
I still don’t understand why we need to pray that those already in heaven would pray for us. If they are truly saints and know what is going on on Earth, wouldn’t they do this anyway.
They might pray for us either way, just as you say. No one said the saints were quiet about us, until we beseech them for their prayers.
Also if I can take my prayers directly to God, the only one who can answer them why would I pray to anyone else?
Because:
We believe in the communion of saints. (Apostle’s Creed)

And this ‘communion’ is not restricted by our considerations of earthly life and death. In fact, I take heart in the fact that there are those who have passed before me- who bask in the glory of God AND who like me have felt the earthly temptations that I currently battle.

Several posters have offered scriptural and traditional/magisterial evidence of this.

I hope and pray that you find clarity in this.
 
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Shiann:
who like me have felt the earthly temptations that I currently battle.
Greeting Shiann

When GOD was tempted in the wilderness wasnt he tempted in everyway?

BIC

LAUS DEO
 
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BIC:
Greeting Shiann

When GOD was tempted in the wilderness wasnt he tempted in everyway?

BIC

LAUS DEO
Of course, but how does that alter anything that I said in my post? Especially this:
Because:
We believe in the communion of saints. (Apostle’s Creed)
 
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Shiann:
Of course, but how does that alter anything that I said in my post? Especially this:
You inferred that the saints are passing on to GOD the earthly temptaions of us on earth? GOD is ALL knowing. He knows our prayer before we ask.

BIC

LAUS DEO
 
Let me see if I have a grip on what you are saying. Basically because you believe in a Universal invisable church in which all members remain so even after death they can still hear your prayers and requests for prayers.

Why do you believe that someone in the direct presence of God needs to pray?
 
Of course He knows our prayers.

Most parents know their children’s prayers too, often before the children even ask. Yet you certainly wouldn’t find it inappropriate or strange if, say, Junior enlists Mom’s support or help to convince Dad to help him get a new bike, or big sis asks little sis to help convince the parents that she is old enough to baby sit. . .

So why would you not suppose that the saints, UNITED TO GOD, might not support the prayers of the people on earth?

Certainly, God and God alone answers the prayer. But God does like to have “two or three gathered together in His name”, and He does encourage us to help each other.

Nobody says the saints answer the prayers. God answers prayers.

But there is nothing to say that the saints do not hear or join their prayers to ours. Do you think that when we pray for peace that the saints in heaven don’t pray for peace as well?

God will do what He wills, but He can be moved to pity and mercy by the prayers, tears, and repentence of His people. . .here on earth AND in heaven. It’s in Revelation, after all. . .
 
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BIC:
Hi Mercygate

But to pray to something dead . . .
Um. Someone in the Kingdom of Heaven can hardly be considered “dead” if we believe that there is “eternal life.”
I use John The Baptist as an example

Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
Great example! But at the time, neither Mary nor John had yet entered Heaven.
hope this make sense

BIC

LAUS DEO
You’re using your noggin. 🙂 Hope you don’t mind my asking for clarification if I don’t understand what you are reaching for.
 
Why do you believe that someone in the direct presence of God needs to pray?
Why WOULDN’T that person pray?

Does prayer, to you, simply mean “asking for something?”

Or is prayer “speaking to God”. . .yes, sometimes asking for things, but often praising, thanking, and worshipping God?

If that is the case. . .and Scripturally speaking, Paul says that it is, then people in the direct presence of God pray even more than people on earth, simply because they ARE in the direct presence of God.
 
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BIC:
You inferred that the saints are passing on to GOD the earthly temptaions of us on earth? GOD is ALL knowing. He knows our prayer before we ask.

BIC

LAUS DEO
Actually I was explaining how I find solace, knowing that there were saints (small s and big S) who lived the rigors of this earthly life- who now reap the benefit of God’s full Glory.

I know that they understand the specific trials I face, and I look up to them and ask for their prayers on my behalf. IN ADDITION to the prayers and devotions I offer directly to God.
 
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HilaryJ:
Let me see if I have a grip on what you are saying. Basically because you believe in a Universal invisable church in which all members remain so even after death they can still hear your prayers and requests for prayers.

Why do you believe that someone in the direct presence of God needs to pray?
I don’t think that you really answered my questions.
 
Yes, I think we did.
Why WOULDN’T that person pray?
Does prayer, to you, simply mean “asking for something?”
Or is prayer “speaking to God”. . .yes, sometimes asking for things, but often praising, thanking, and worshipping God?
If that is the case. . .and Scripturally speaking, Paul says that it is, then people in the direct presence of God pray even more than people on earth, simply because they ARE in the direct presence of God.
 
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teresas1979:
I wish to address Mercygate’s points about the Saints not being dead. (Please bear in mind I am a Catholic although I have issues with my faith at the moment and am seriously contemplating leaving the Church permanently).

How do we know if the Saints are dead? As in how do we know if they entered eternal life? Only God can look into you and know if you are saved and yet Catholics pray to people who may not be in Heaven. I don’t know what I think about this personally yet, I just think it opens up more thinking on this issue.

Mary the Mother of Our Lord is almost certainly in Heaven as she was the perfect example of christianity. But what about some of the other saints? How can one be sure their prayers are heard? Salvation is an often questioned issue and as a Catholic I have been taught it is never guaranteed. So how do we know if all these saints who are prayed to have indeed entered eternal life and are answering our prayers?
Hi teresa! 👋

God has granted the Church knowledge in this area. When someone is declared a Saint (big “S”) we can know that person is really in heaven. That’s what the big “S” Saint is, someone we know it in heaven with Christ.

I’d love to talk with you about the issues that are causing you to desire to permanently leave the Church. Please e-mail me at Catholic4aReason@aol.com!

In Christ,
Nancy 👋
 
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BIC:
Hi Mercygate

Here is where I struggle with Mary as an intercessor. We ask each other to pray for us i.e… family , friends…etc… But to pray to something dead (speculation on how or if she is used at the present time), does GOD need help? up there? I do agree she is blessed among women and she demonstrated her hospitality to her guest. (Cana) but sometimes it seems Mary is elevated beyond what GOD may desire? (speculation on my part). I use John The Baptist as an example

Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

How can one elevate Mary or any other Saint. Who is the least in heaven is the greatest.

hope this make sense

BIC

LAUS DEO
Hi BIC! 👋

I’m not sure how prayer from a Christian translates into God needing help. Can you help me out with that one? Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
Sorry posted that before it updated with the new posting on my pc. I don’t believe that prayer is the right term used for the communication between the dead in Christ and the Father. They are in his pressence and can speak with him more directly. I would also like answer to the first statement, which I should have worded differently. Is the assumption correct that you believe that these saints are able to pray for you and hear your request for prayer based on the fact that you believe in a universal invisable church in which even the deceased are still members?
 
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HilaryJ:
I would agree with this statement. No matter what examinations we can make about the outer workings of men, we cannot ever fully know the inner workings of their hearts. Only God Almighty knows this. I still don’t understand why we need to pray that those already in heaven would pray for us. If they are truly saints and know what is going on on Earth, wouldn’t they do this anyway. Also if I can take my prayers directly to God, the only one who can answer them why would I pray to anyone else?
Thanks
Hi Hilary!

What you’d be taking to God or to a Christian in heaven with Christ are two different things. You take your prayers to God but your prayer REQUESTS to other Christians. You wouldn’t take your prayers to other Christians because they don’t answer prayers. You wouldn’t take your prayer requests to God because God doesn’t pray for us, he answers our prayers.

Again, I think the word “pray” is what’s throwing you. It’s not your prayers that you take to Christians in heaven but your prayer REQUESTS, which is entirely different from what you’d take to God.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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