Mary as an intercessor?

[Shiann]

HilaryJ:

Let me see if I have a grip on what you are saying. Basically because you believe in a Universal invisable church in which all members remain so even after death they can still hear your prayers and requests for prayers.

Why do you believe that someone in the direct presence of God needs to pray?

We are united in our Love and Devotion to our Lord God, “dead or alive”.

We are like family.

I don’t stop talking to my family here on earth because they move away from me.

Maybe we are getting caught up in the word ‘PRAY’. When I say pray, I might mean ‘beseech’ (as I have used in my examples) but that is not all that we do when we pray. We thank, we praise God, I sometimes just talk.

I would assume that those in the direct presence of God- who are experiencing his full Grace and Love- are in CONSTANT communication with Him.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

BIC:

Hi Mercygate

Here is where I struggle with Mary as an intercessor. We ask each other to pray for us i.e… family , friends…etc… But to pray to something dead (speculation on how or if she is used at the present time), does GOD need help? up there? I do agree she is blessed among women and she demonstrated her hospitality to her guest. (Cana) but sometimes it seems Mary is elevated beyond what GOD may desire? (speculation on my part). I use John The Baptist as an example

Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

How can one elevate Mary or any other Saint. Who is the least in heaven is the greatest.

hope this make sense

BIC

LAUS DEO

Hi BIC!

How do you feel Mary is elevated beyond what God would desire?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[HilaryJ]

Shiann:

We are united in our Love and Devotion to our Lord God, “dead or alive”.

We are like family.

I don’t stop talking to my family here on earth because they move away from me.

Maybe we are getting caught up in the word ‘PRAY’. When I say pray, I might mean ‘beseech’ (as I have used in my examples) but that is not all that we do when we pray. We thank, we praise God, I sometimes just talk.

I would assume that those in the direct presence of God- who are experiencing his full Grace and Love- are in CONSTANT communication with Him.

Exactly they are in constant communication with Him and have no need for prayer. And yes I do know that prayer is not just asking for something. It is exalting, praising, worshiping, giving thanks, and I also just talk to God when I pray. What I don’t understand is if you can this freely communicate with your Lord why you think you need the prayers of the saints that are already living in his constant presence.

 

[Shiann]

HilaryJ:

Let me see if I have a grip on what you are saying. Basically because you believe in a Universal invisable church in which all members remain so even after death they can still hear your prayers and requests for prayers.

Why do you believe that someone in the direct presence of God needs to pray?

We are united in our Love and Devotion to our Lord God, “dead or alive”.

We are like family.

I don’t stop talking to my family here on earth because they move away from me.

Maybe we are getting caught up in the word ‘PRAY’. When I say pray, I might mean ‘beseech’ (as I have used in my examples) but that is not all that we do when we pray. We thank, we praise God, I sometimes just talk.

I would assume that those in the direct presence of God- who are experiencing his full Grace and Love- are in CONSTANT communication with Him.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

HilaryJ:

Let me see if I have a grip on what you are saying. Basically because you believe in a Universal invisable church in which all members remain so even after death they can still hear your prayers and requests for prayers.

Why do you believe that someone in the direct presence of God needs to pray?

Hi Hilary!

“Pray”, in the context, simply means to ask. Just as I can ask you to pray for me (ask God for me) so can we ask those alive in heaven with Christ. Certainly their requests would take on a different form than yours since they live face to face with Christ and you do not. It is not any less of a request though.

Again, the Church doesn’t teach HOW this takes place just that it can take place.

It’s not that anyone in the presence of God needs to pray for anything. They already have everything. But they can still intercede in prayer for those of us still on earth.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[HilaryJ]

Catholic4aReasn:

But they can still intercede in prayer for those of us still on earth.

How do you know this?

 

[Shiann]

HilaryJ:

Exactly they are in constant communication with Him and have no need for prayer. And yes I do know that prayer is not just asking for something. It is exalting, praising, worshiping, giving thanks, and I also just talk to God when I pray. What I don’t understand is if you can this freely communicate with your Lord why you think you need the prayers of the saints that are already living in his constant presence.

Because they are my Spiritual FAMILY.

 

[HilaryJ]

HilaryJ:

I would also like answer to the first statement, which I should have worded differently. Is the assumption correct that you believe that these saints are able to pray for you and hear your request for prayer based on the fact that you believe in a universal invisable church in which even the deceased are still members?

this is also an important question for me. I would like a direct answer, yes or no. if no then explain.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

HilaryJ:

Let me see if I have a grip on what you are saying. Basically because you believe in a Universal invisable church in which all members remain so even after death they can still hear your prayers and requests for prayers.

QUOTE]

Hi Hilary!

When we’re talking about those alive in heaven with Christ there is no “prayers” AND “requests for prayers”. They aren’t two different things. The word “pray” can mean “request”. So if someone says they are “praying to” a Christian in heaven it means they are asking that person to pray FOR them to Christ. The word “pray” is throwing you.

The Church doesn’t teach that those in heaven “hear” as you and I hear. They don’t have ears afterall, and are not bound by the laws of time and space the way you and I are.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[mercygate]

HilaryJ:

Is the assumption correct that you believe that these saints are able to pray for you and hear your request for prayer based on the fact that you believe in a universal invisable church in which even the deceased are still members?

Partly, yes, you are right. The Church comprises all those living and those gone before us, who are in Christ. So you could say that those who have gone ahead of us into the Kingdom are “invisible” because from here, we can no longer see them.

On the other hand, we do not believe that the Church, in essence, is invisible. Part of the Church is highly visible – as it needs to be to do its job. The visible Church is the one which Christ established to carry out his work “to the end of the world.” It is very largely (though not entirely) co-terminous with the Catholic Church. This is both a theological necessity and a historical fact.

See the following paragraphs from the Catechism. First, on the visible Church

**779 **The Church is both visible and spiritual, a hierarchical society and the Mystical Body of Christ. She is one, yet formed of two components, human and divine. That is her mystery, which only faith can accept.

CCC:

**II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH **

[954](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/954.htm’) The three states of the Church. “When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is”’:492

All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.493

955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494

[956](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/956.htm’) The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495

Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496 I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497

[957](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/957.htm’) Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:

We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499
[958](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/958.htm’) Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

You could also look at the sections on the Mystical Body of Christ. Here’s the CCC on line: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

HilaryJ:

I don’t believe that prayer is the right term used for the communication between the dead in Christ and the Father. They are in his pressence and can speak with him more directly.

Hi hilary!

That’s because in our day and age we tend to use the word “pray” in only one way and that’s the communication that is directed at God. When thinking of the word “pray” in that one, limited way you’re right, pray is not the right term.

However, not so very long ago the word “pray” had another, common meaning. It means “a request”. When used in speaking of those in heaven it means a prayer request.

In this case you need to look at how the word “pray” has been used historically and not only in the limited way it’s currently used.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[HilaryJ]

Let me be more specific. I understand that you are requesting that they pray for you. ( I still don’t understand why you would do this, but lets put that aside for a moment) I would really like a direct answer to this question.

HilaryJ:

Is the assumption correct that you believe that these saints are able to pray for you and hear your request for prayer based on the fact that you believe in a universal invisable church in which even the deceased are still members?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

HilaryJ:

How do you know this?

Because the Church, who is the God-ordained upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) says they can.

Because Rev 5:8 demonstrates that those in heaven take the prayers of those on earth before God.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

HilaryJ:

Let me be more specific. I understand that you are requesting that they pray for you. ( I still don’t understand why you would do this, but lets put that aside for a moment) I would really like a direct answer to this question.

Hi hilary!

No, I don’t believe they can hear you ask those of us still in the body hear.

Yes, those who are alive with Christ as still member of His Body.

To ask “why would you do this” would be exactly like asking “why ask anyone to pray for you”. We ask because intercessory prayer is very powerful!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[mercygate]

BIC:

Greeting Shiann

When GOD was tempted in the wilderness wasnt he tempted in everyway?

BIC

LAUS DEO

BIC, I like the way you look to Scripture for your questions. The wilderness temptations were only 3. Jesus was tempted in Gethsemani also. Perhaps he was tempted when Peter reacted with such shock when Jesus said he would suffer. I think the author of Hebrews was referring to Jesus’ complete humanity in saying that our great high priest was tempted in every way as we are. In English the phrase “in every way” does not necessarily mean “in all the same ways” but rather “to the same extent.” (Am I right in guessing that English is not your mother tongue?)

 

[BIC]

HilaryJ:

Let me see if I have a grip on what you are saying. Basically because you believe in a Universal invisable church in which all members remain so even after death they can still hear your prayers and requests for prayers.

Why do you believe that someone in the direct presence of God needs to pray?

Hi HilaryJ

Not sure what you mean by Universal invisible church? Could you clarify this?

Did I say that someone needs to be the direct presence of GOD to pray?

The Saints in heaven are praising GOD, arent they? continually

BIC

LAUS DEO

 

[BIC]

mercygate:

Um. Someone in the Kingdom of Heaven can hardly be considered “dead” if we believe that there is “eternal life.”

HIYA Mercygate

What assurance do we have that Mary or Saints are in heaven in the present? The only assurance we have is that Jesus was resurrected and is at the right hand of the father.

Great example! But at the time, neither Mary nor John had yet entered Heaven.

It seems flippant to disregard who is considered greatest or least. no offense meant.

You’re using your noggin. Hope you don’t mind my asking for clarification if I don’t understand what you are reaching for.

I am always willing to learn thats why I ask the questions.

 

[BIC]

mercygate:

BIC, I like the way you look to Scripture for your questions. The wilderness temptations were only 3. Jesus was tempted in Gethsemani also. Perhaps he was tempted when Peter reacted with such shock when Jesus said he would suffer. I think the author of Hebrews was referring to Jesus’ complete humanity in saying that our great high priest was tempted in every way as we are. In English the phrase “in every way” does not necessarily mean “in all the same ways” but rather “to the same extent.” (Am I right in guessing that English is not your mother tongue?)

HIYA Mercygate,

Actually I from Oklahoma so dont hold my foriegn tongue against me. I took in “every way” as literal. My point is that Jesus has experience temptation so he knows what we “may or could face”, Proof that we can go to him for any and everything cause he has walked in our shoes.

BIC

LAUS DEO

 

[LSK]

Hi, Hilary.

I am what is called a “cradle Catholic” and have never really understood why there is a controversy around Mary and devotion to her. I may not sound as learned as some of the other contributors, but let me see if I can share my experience, strength and hope with you as a practicing Catholic.

I believe that Jesus is the Living God. All prayers and requests ultimately are laid before Him for consideration. I know that all my prayers are always answered - sometimes the answer is not the one I want, but they are always answered.

I turn to Mary for comfort and intercession when I want the guidance and wisdom of a woman, born without sin and chosen by God to manifest the Word in flesh. Her life long example of humilty, grace and dignity is one I wish to emulate.

I ask Mary to lay certain problems of mine before her Son out of human frailty, really - I do so in the hope that the answer to my prayer may be “Yes”, that what I ask may become the Will of my Heavenly Father.

The way it was explained to me was by the use of what happenned at the Wedding Feast. Jesus told His mother it was not really time for Him to begin His ministry - and yet, with supreme faith that her Son would be merciful and rescue a good man from an embarrassing situation (running out of wine at a wedding? As a good Irish/Italian girl, I can think of little else that would be so embarrasing! ), Mary told the servants to do whatever her Son asked.

My personal story is such that I end all my prayers with “Please grant me the Grace to Accept God’s Will in all matters”. I have learned - the hard way - that ultimately my role as a faithful disciple is to accept God’s Will and share His Word.

Does this make any sense:whacky: ?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

BIC:

HIYA Mercygate

What assurance do we have that Mary or Saints are in heaven in the present? The only assurance we have is that Jesus was resurrected and is at the right hand of the father.

It seems flippant to disregard who is considered greatest or least. no offense meant.

I am always willing to learn thats why I ask the questions.

The first statement strikes me as strange because of the insistance of some that ask us are we assured to go to heaven You are assuming that physical death seperates us from Jesus which contradicts scripture,only spiritual death can do that.Humility is exalted by God read the magnificant.God exalts humans should respect who God chooses to exalt.Just a question for you though, do you think Jesus was perfect in every aspect?I have a reson for asking you that.God Bless