Mary as an intercessor?

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“The teaching of the Second Vatican Council presents the truth of Mary’s mediation as ‘a sharing in the one unique source that is the mediation of Christ himself.’ Thus we read: ‘The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. She experiences it continuously and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that, encouraged by this maternal help, they may more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.’ This role is at the same time special and extraordinary. It flows from her divine motherhood and can be understood and lived in faith only on the basis of the full truth of this motherhood. Since, by virtue of divine election Mary is the earthly Mother of the Father’s consubstantial Son and his ‘generous companion’ in the work of redemption ‘she is a mother to us in the order of grace. This role constitutes a real dimension of her presence in the saving mystery of Christ and the Church.’”

“Just as she [Eve]. . .having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race, so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . .Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had unbound in disbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith,” St. Irenaeus.

“Too many do not realize the logical consequence of the Incarnation is that Jesus of Nazareth, a character in history, was and is personally God in the fullest sense of the word, and therefore to be worshipped as such sans phrase. Not to be clear about this not only obscures the unique privilege of Mary and so makes men niggardly in honouring her. It also creates the risk that the throne which should be hers is given instead to the Son, in place of his rightful one. That is to say, our Lord, in men’s minds, instead of occupying his place at the right hand of the Father comes instead to be thought of as merely the highest of beings after God. The way to keep the proportion of faith is, not to measure out nervously the devotion you give to Mary, but to be quite sure first that you have given to God the things that are God’s just as only if you do this, can you be quire sure of not defrauding Caesar so equally you can be certain that when God has been given his due, Mary will automatically take her proper place in the universe. The person who is most likely to fail in civil allegiance is the man who thinks of God as a limited monarch. . .the same way the one who is most likely to underestimate the Blessed Virgin is he who has an inadequate idea of the nature of the Deity. Newman once spoke of the Arian Christ as usurping a throne in God’s plane reserved for her who is really the highest of all created beings, as the Arians thought the Saviour to be. . .if an untrue devotion to our Lady is to be avoided what is needed is not fewer prayers to her, but more. A form of prayer which does not mention her is to some degree incomplete. Not only does it make men think of God apart from the Incarnation and the Body of Christ: it also runs the risk that when we do turn to Mary we shall forget her relationship to God. Never to think of God without Mary and never of Mary without God is a safe rule,” T. M. Parker, an Anglican theologian, quoted in The Truth About Mary, Vol. 3 Robert Payesko, Queenship Publishing.

Mary’s influence becomes increasingly all-embracing as souls advance in the interior life. This has been often noted by St. Grignon de Montfort: “The Holy Ghost,” he says, “became fruitful on earth through Mary, His spouse. It was with her and of her that He produced His masterpiece, God-made-man, and that He produces daily till the end of the world the predestined members of the body of our adorable Head: that is why He is all the more active to produce Jesus Christ in a soul the more He finds there Mary, His dear and inseparable spouse.

“This does not mean that Mary gave the Holy Ghost His fecundity. . .it means that the Holy Ghost manifests His fecundity by making use of Mary, even though He does not need her, to produce Jesus Christ and His members in and through her: this is a mystery of grace unknown even to the most learned and spiritual of Christians.”

continued. . .
 
Mary exercises a very profound influence on faithful souls to lead them to every greater intimacy with Our Blessed Lord. Those who enter on this way find themselves introduced far into the mystery of the Communion of the Saints, and come gradually to share in the sentiments Mary had at the foot of the Cross, after Jesus’ death, and later on at Pentecost.

“What is the place of Mary herself in relation to God? It is that he brought her, as he did all the other children of earth, out of nothing - although He has since then exalted her to a point of grace immense and inconceivable, nevertheless, in comparison to her Maker, she still remains as nothing. Indeed, she is – far more than any other – HIS creature, because he has wrought more in her than in any other of his creatures. The greater the things he does to her, the more she becomes the work of his hands.” (From Down to Earth: The New Protestant View of the Virgin Mary.)
 
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BIC:
HIYA

Actually I left out “It feels like the catholic chruch elevates Mary”

BIC

LAUS DEO
But beyond what God would desire? If so, how so?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
But beyond what God would desire? If so, how so?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
Hi

This seems to be an assumption that GOD elevates Mary doesnt it? Why is (IF) Mary set aside as THE intercesor?

What is your belief in what GOD desires of Mary’s prominance?

BIC

LAUS DEO
 
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BIC:
Hi

This seems to be an assumption that GOD elevates Mary doesnt it?
Exactly. Who else? But it is not an assumption (to use a Marian word 😛 ). It is recognition of the fact, which has come through a very deep engagement with Scripture, by the use of reason, and through the graced experience of the Church’s life in Christ.
Why is (IF) Mary set aside as THE intercesor?
I don’t know what you mean by “set aside.” BIC, by now you should have picked up on the fact that Mary is not THE intercessor but AN intercessor; first among mortals. None of her grace exists apart from her Son. Her intercession is the prayer of the righteous man (Jas. 5:16) – but as you pointed out elsewhere, the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than the greatest still on earth. Since we know she is in heaven, we know her prayer “has great power in its effects.”
What is your belief in what GOD desires of Mary’s prominance?

BIC
I can answer only for myself. As a Convert, I admit that my appreciation of Our Lady did not come easialy or overnight. Nevertheless, meditating on the Scriptures relating to her life, and praying for understanding, I have come to understand how all the Marian doctrines connect with the Incarnation. Nothing we believe about Mary would make any sense at all without the Incarnation. The key piece: freely Eve rejected God’s plan; freely Mary received it. She is the gateway of the Incarnation. That’s pretty prominent. And she bids us, “Do whatever he tells you.”
 
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BIC:
Hi

This seems to be an assumption that GOD elevates Mary doesnt it? Why is (IF) Mary set aside as THE intercesor?

What is your belief in what GOD desires of Mary’s prominance?

BIC

LAUS DEO
BIC

As a Catholic convert I do struggle with the concept that Mary is the “Queen of Heaven”. I have finally come to the conclusion that I make a personal choice to not focus on that. I focus on my relationship with Jesus Christ. If, at some future date God instills a desire in me to focus on Mary, so be it. But, I’m not going to leave God’s true church over what I feel to be an over-emphasis on Mary. There is so much more to the Church than Mary.
 
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MaggieOH:
Abraham petitioned on behalf of the people of Sodom. Lot lived there and had to get out in a hurry.
Eeek My bad, Got in a hurry my mind was going faster than I could type.

BIC
 
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HilaryJ:
I am trying to learn more about the catholic faith. I had some questions about this issue and would appreciate some honest answers. Here is the response that I first received.
"you ask a good question. There are at least three issues that you raise in your questions, but these issues do not belong on this thread. If you need answers to the questions then it might be a good idea to start a new thread:

issue 1 What is meant by the term “intercessor”
issue 2 Why is Mary recognized as an “Intercessor” (please read John chapter 2 and if you still do not get it, then ask again)
issue 3. How can Mary be an intercessor after death? This is an issue that relates to what is meant in the Scripture by death. This is a separate issue from the first two issues and requires its own thread."
I did read John chapter 2 and I still don’t get it. Also I would like an explanation of the other two issues as well. Thank you in advance for your response. I really would like to have an educated understanding of this issue.
:tiphat:
I’m sorry but I don’t see anything in John chapter 2 that points to Mary as being our intercessor. It doesnt even say that anyone in the party asked her to say something to Jesus. If you have something else please share.
Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Joh 2:5 His mother sait unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

In Him and Him Only, Dave.
 
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HilaryJ:
I understand, and believe that we should pray for one another. I guess I just don’t understand how Mary can even hear your prayers since she is in heaven. Also if you can offer your prayers to God via Jesus directly why pray to someone who is dead. While I understand praying for our living brothers and sisters, I just don’t understand the concept of prayer to anyone other than God, much less the how. Thanks again.
Mary is not dead, she is alive in heaven. How can God hear us if he is in heaven? How can the angels hear us if they are in heaven? They hear us through prayer. Mary prays for us. All the members in heaven pray for us. It is no different than asking a member of your church to pray for you, actually it is probably better since the saints are already there in the glory of God. You are also called to be an intercessor, we all are.
 
When praying to God, is there any harm if we ask for the intercession of the Saints? Nope. Those who are questioning it and whether or not they can hear us…what have you got to lose? Nothing. It takes a few seconds of your time to say the words, “Through the intercession of St. Mary, St. Peter, St. Mark and all the Saints hear me when I say, Our Father who art in Heaven…” Those who do not follow this practice must keep in mind that praying for the intercession of saints does NOT mean we stop praying to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet supplement those prayers in asking others who are in God’s presence to pray for us as well.

So say the Saints do hear you and pray to God on your behalf…pretty wonderful right?
But say they don’t hear you. Does that mean God is going to punish you for asking someone to pray for you? I doubt it.
And it’s not like your prayers will go unheard because we still continue to pray to God as well, right?

So if one looks at it this way, I don’t see any harm.

God Bless,
Elizabeth
 
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oudave:
I’m sorry but I don’t see anything in John chapter 2 that points to Mary as being our intercessor. It doesnt even say that anyone in the party asked her to say something to Jesus. If you have something else please share.
Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesussaith unto him, They have no wine.

Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?mine hour is not yet come.

Joh 2:5 His mother sait unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

In Him and Him Only, Dave.
So you have been clever and you have quoted the correct portion of the chapter but you have mistakenly emphasised the wrong verse. The wording in your text does not truly convey what Jesus was saying to Mary, because He was not rebuking her as certain people claim.

So let me go through the scene because there are some very important things going on:
  1. Mary discovers that the bride groom is almost out of wine and she recognizes that this could be embarrassing.
  2. She then decides to speak to her Son knowing that as God he has the power to intervene on behalf of the bridegroom
  3. She tells the servants to "do whatever he tells you"
  4. Jesus tells the servants to go fill up the jars that normally contain the water used for ritual washing.
  5. They do as they are told despite their doubts and are suprised to discover that the water is the best wine.
In other words, Mary saw a need and spoke to her Son about that need and He did not refuse His Mother’s request and He will never refuse His mother’s request.

That is why Hilary was directed to this particular passage in John’s Gospel. However there is more to consider regarding Mary’s role and for this we need to turn to the foot of the Cross.
Jesus gave His mother to the Apostle John. On the surface this was ensuring that John would be the one to take care of the woman who was now alone. At a deeper level there is some symbolism at the foot of the Cross that needs to be considered. John the disciple represents the Church, and Mary is being given to John as Mother of the Church.

This ties in with the Book of Revelation 12:1 where we see the Woman giving birth to her son crying out with the pangs of childbirth. The symbolism of Rev 11:19 to Rev 12:4 points as much to Mary as it does to Israel and the Church. Mary is the Woman and she has, through giving birth to Jesus, given birth to the New Covenant, and at the time of writing the Church was writhing from the pains of persecution.

This may sound complicated, yet when all of this is put together it really does begin to make sense. The trick is to move away from the literal and into the spiritual realm.

Maggie
 
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oudave:
'mJoh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?mine hour is not yet come.
Ti (what) emoi (to me) kai (and) soi (to you)

The more literal translation would be:

“What is that to you and me?”

IOW, “What business is that of ours?”
 
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MaggieOH:
So you have been clever and you have quoted the correct portion of the chapter but you have mistakenly emphasised the wrong verse. The wording in your text does not truly convey what Jesus was saying to Mary, because He was not rebuking her as certain people claim.

So let me go through the scene because there are some very important things going on:
  1. Mary discovers that the bride groom is almost out of wine and she recognizes that this could be embarrassing.
  2. She then decides to speak to her Son knowing that as God he has the power to intervene on behalf of the bridegroom
  3. She tells the servants to "do whatever he tells you"
  4. Jesus tells the servants to go fill up the jars that normally contain the water used for ritual washing.
  5. They do as they are told despite their doubts and are suprised to discover that the water is the best wine.
In other words, Mary saw a need and spoke to her Son about that need and He did not refuse His Mother’s request and He will never refuse His mother’s request.

That is why Hilary was directed to this particular passage in John’s Gospel. However there is more to consider regarding Mary’s role and for this we need to turn to the foot of the Cross.
Jesus gave His mother to the Apostle John. On the surface this was ensuring that John would be the one to take care of the woman who was now alone. At a deeper level there is some symbolism at the foot of the Cross that needs to be considered. John the disciple represents the Church, and Mary is being given to John as Mother of the Church.

This ties in with the Book of Revelation 12:1 where we see the Woman giving birth to her son crying out with the pangs of childbirth. The symbolism of Rev 11:19 to Rev 12:4 points as much to Mary as it does to Israel and the Church. Mary is the Woman and she has, through giving birth to Jesus, given birth to the New Covenant, and at the time of writing the Church was writhing from the pains of persecution.

This may sound complicated, yet when all of this is put together it really does begin to make sense. The trick is to move away from the literal and into the spiritual realm.

Maggie
Hi Maggie
The key word to your whole responce comes in the last sentence "trick’’. You have done exactly what you claim we do. You could use 100 scriptures and twist and turn this into anything you want.
You can stretch this out as far as you want, you still havent made you case as Mary being intercessor. Sharing time with Jesus and someone else is taking time away from Jesus no matter how you look at it. I got a question, do you think that Jesus is just to busy taking care of the worlds problems that he needs someone to take prayers down for him? Why do you have such a hard time just going to him in prayer? and tell dont me that its just like asking a friend to pray for me because its not. I ask a friend to pray TO God for me, you pray TO or AT someone to pray to God for you. If I were to pray to my friend Jerry like this, Dear Jerry I pray that you would ask God to help me with my job. That would be idolitry and I think you know that, but if I ask Jerry to remember me in his prayers that he offers up to God, then we are putting nothing before God. He is an Awsome God and should always be first in our lives.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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MaggieOH:
So you have been clever and you have quoted the correct portion of the chapter but you have mistakenly emphasised the wrong verse. The wording in your text does not truly convey what Jesus was saying to Mary, because He was not rebuking her as certain people claim.

So let me go through the scene because there are some very important things going on:
  1. Mary discovers that the bride groom is almost out of wine and she recognizes that this could be embarrassing.
  2. She then decides to speak to her Son knowing that as God he has the power to intervene on behalf of the bridegroom
  3. She tells the servants to "do whatever he tells you"
  4. Jesus tells the servants to go fill up the jars that normally contain the water used for ritual washing.
  5. They do as they are told despite their doubts and are suprised to discover that the water is the best wine.
In other words, Mary saw a need and spoke to her Son about that need and He did not refuse His Mother’s request and He will never refuse His mother’s request.

That is why Hilary was directed to this particular passage in John’s Gospel. However there is more to consider regarding Mary’s role and for this we need to turn to the foot of the Cross.
Jesus gave His mother to the Apostle John. On the surface this was ensuring that John would be the one to take care of the woman who was now alone. At a deeper level there is some symbolism at the foot of the Cross that needs to be considered. John the disciple represents the Church, and Mary is being given to John as Mother of the Church.

This ties in with the Book of Revelation 12:1 where we see the Woman giving birth to her son crying out with the pangs of childbirth. The symbolism of Rev 11:19 to Rev 12:4 points as much to Mary as it does to Israel and the Church. Mary is the Woman and she has, through giving birth to Jesus, given birth to the New Covenant, and at the time of writing the Church was writhing from the pains of persecution.

This may sound complicated, yet when all of this is put together it really does begin to make sense. The trick is to move away from the literal and into the spiritual realm.

Maggie
Hi Maggie
The key word to your whole responce comes in the last sentence "trick’’. You have done exactly what you claim we do. You could use 100 scriptures and twist and turn this into anything you want.
You can stretch this out as far as you want, you still havent made you case as Mary being intercessor. Sharing time with Jesus and someone else is taking time away from Jesus no matter how you look at it. I got a question, do you think that Jesus is just to busy taking care of the worlds problems that he needs someone to take prayers down for him? Why do you have such a hard time just going to him in prayer? and tell dont me that its just like asking a friend to pray for me because its not. I ask a friend to pray TO God for me, you pray TO or AT someone to pray to God for you. If I were to pray to my friend Jerry like this, Dear Jerry I pray that you would ask God to help me with my job. That would be idolitry and I think you know that, but if I ask Jerry to remember me in his prayers that he offers up to God, then we are putting nothing before God. He is an Awsome God and should always be first in our lives.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
Is Jesus a King or not?
Does He have a kingdom or not?

What type of kingdom is it? What type of King is He?
Which King in the OT was this kingship modeled after?

Did these Kings have a special role for the mother of the King?
I am referring specifically to Bathsheeba and the precedent she set for the role of Queen Mother.

Is Mary the mother of the King or not? Is she the mother of a Davidic King or not? Would she or wouldn’t she play a similar role as the Queen Mother in the Davidic Kingdom of the OT?

Any role Mary does play was given to her by God.
I suspect many reject her role because it seems too “catholic” for them to handle - when in fact it is a very “jewish” concept.
 
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oudave:
Hi Maggie
The key word to your whole responce comes in the last sentence "trick’’. You have done exactly what you claim we do. You could use 100 scriptures and twist and turn this into anything you want.
You can stretch this out as far as you want, you still havent made you case as Mary being intercessor. Sharing time with Jesus and someone else is taking time away from Jesus no matter how you look at it. I got a question, do you think that Jesus is just to busy taking care of the worlds problems that he needs someone to take prayers down for him? Why do you have such a hard time just going to him in prayer? and tell dont me that its just like asking a friend to pray for me because its not. I ask a friend to pray TO God for me, you pray TO or AT someone to pray to God for you. If I were to pray to my friend Jerry like this, Dear Jerry I pray that you would ask God to help me with my job. That would be idolitry and I think you know that, but if I ask Jerry to remember me in his prayers that he offers up to God, then we are putting nothing before God. He is an Awsome God and should always be first in our lives.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
EXACTLY!
 
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HilaryJ:
But I have and you and Dave have yet to tell me that the position of Giberah is scripturally invalid…which you can’t because It IS valid.
Face it…it’s just your interp of your own opinions and not really what the Bible says. In other words…you twist the Word of God to support your own opinion. There’s no “trick” to it and you should be ashamed of yourself for twisting MaggieOH’s words like that…but ya seem to be good at that.

If you try to tell us that Mary’s positiona as Giberah is not true then you will also have to deny that Jesus is the Messiah since her position hinges upon His.
Pax vobiscum,
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif
 
Church Militant:
But I have and you and Dave have yet to tell me that the position of Giberah is scripturally invalid…which you can’t because It IS valid.
Have no idea what the posistion of Giberah is.
I do know that the bible says none of this about Mary. Jesus Loved his mother, but he did not worship her. He does the will of God the Father not the will of a mere human, regardless of whether she is his mother or not.
 
I do know that the bible says none of this about Mary. Jesus Loved his mother, but he did not worship her. He does the will of God the Father not the will of a mere human, regardless of whether she is his mother or not.
It’s been awhile since I’ve read something so full of anti-catholic bigotry and ignorance.

Please prove to me that catholics claim that Jesus worshipped His mother?
Please prove to me that catholics worship Mary.

BTW - is anyone going to address the role the queen mother played during the davidic monarchies or not?

Is Jesus a davidic king or not?
 
I didn’t say that catholics believe that Jesus worshiped Mary, or that they worship Mary. It would seem that he would have to worship her if you insist that he put her will so highly, even perhaps above the Father. One person said above that he believed that Mary could convince Jesus to do anything, I would say that Jesus would have to worship her for this to be true. What I did say was that Jesus lived to do the will of the Father, not anyone else including his mother. I think the problem that the Jews had with Jesus was that he was not a king in the since that David was king. Perhaps they would have accepted him as messiah if he were. God did not intend that anyone should influence Jesus, and no one did. He sent Jesus to influence the World.
Just because Jesus turned the water into wine does not mean that Mary convinced him to do so. Again I would stress that Jesus lived his life to do the will of the Father, not anyone else.
 
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