Mary as an intercessor?

[Axion]

HilaryJ:

Have no idea what the posistion of Giberah is.
I do know that the bible says none of this about Mary. .

The GEBIRAH is the title of the Queen Mother of Israel and Judah.

The Queen in the Kingship of David and Solomon, in which Jesus takes His place as fulfilment, was not the wife of the King but the Mother of the King.

It was one of her perogatives to take pleas from subjects and present them to the king.

If Jesus is King of the line of David, then Mary is also Queen Mother, Gebirah. One follows on directly from the other.

Jesus Loved his mother, but he did not worship her. He does the will of God the Father not the will of a mere human, regardless of whether she is his mother or not

Is it not possible that they will the same things?

 

[Axion]

B

HilaryJ:

One person said above that he believed that Mary could convince Jesus to do anything, I would say that Jesus would have to worship her for this to be true. What I did say was that Jesus lived to do the will of the Father, not anyone else including his mother.

Again, I would state, Mary also did the will of the Father. She would never ask for anything that was not in line with the will of the Father. So there is no contradiction.

 

[Axion]

HilaryJ:

ust because Jesus turned the water into wine does not mean that Mary convinced him to do so. Again I would stress that Jesus lived his life to do the will of the Father, not anyone else.

You have to admit that Jesus does not seem very interested in doing anything about the wine situation before Mary intervened. He even said: “What is that to thee and me” and “My time is not yet come.”

Yet He did what she asked.

We have many other biblical instances of God apparently changing his mind due to intercessory prayer. And scripture advises us to intercede. So intercession must have a purpose. No?

 

[HilaryJ]

Axion:

B
Again, I would state, Mary also did the will of the Father. She would never ask for anything that was not in line with the will of the Father. So there is no contradiction.

Mary was human.

 

[Lorarose]

I didn’t say that catholics believe that Jesus worshiped Mary, or that they worship Mary. It would seem that he would have to worship her if you insist that he put her will so highly, even perhaps above the Father

Why does it “seem” he would have to worship her?
Wasn’t Jesus a good jewish man?
Weren’t all jews taught to “honor thy father and thy mother”?
Jesus honored his father and mother - and since we are to imitate Jesus - we honor His Father and mother also.

You have not shown any proof whatsoever that would suggest catholics could be so stupid as to place Mary over the Father.
Sheeesh!!​

What I did say was that Jesus lived to do the will of the Father, not anyone else including his mother.

And how do you know that it was not the will of the Father for Jesus to love and honor his mother?​

I think the problem that the Jews had with Jesus was that he was not a king in the since that David was king. Perhaps they would have accepted him as messiah if he were. God did not intend that anyone should influence Jesus, and no one did. He sent Jesus to influence the World

You are ignoring the fact that Jesus is indeed a king - and He does, indeed, have a kingdom.
You are ignoring the prophecy of Isaiah concerning this kingdom.

Jesus is a davidic king.
His mother is the queen mother.
She, therefore, fulfills the role that has been given to the queen mother.​

Just because Jesus turned the water into wine does not mean that Mary convinced him to do so.

Ummm…yes it does.
Why is this so difficult for you accept?

 

[mercygate]

HilaryJ:

I didn’t say that catholics believe that Jesus worshiped Mary, or that they worship Mary. It would seem that he would have to worship her if you insist that he put her will so highly, even perhaps above the Father.

Of course, the will of the Father is supreme. But aren’t you assuming that Mary’s wish is contrary to the will of the Father? Her life shows that she, too, came to do the Father’s will. She gave her only begotten Son for the sins of the world, even as the Father did.

One person said above that he believed that Mary could convince Jesus to do anything, I would say that Jesus would have to worship her for this to be true. What I did say was that Jesus lived to do the will of the Father, not anyone else including his mother.

Anything? Of course Jesus could not be convinced to do something against the Father’s will. But there may be a hundred outcomes to a situation, and each one of them could be the will of God . . . Remember the importunate woman. God does respond to prayer.

. . .God did not intend that anyone should influence Jesus, and no one did. He sent Jesus to influence the World.

Many people influenced him: the centurion, the ruler of the synagogue, blind Bartimaeus . . .

Just because Jesus turned the water into wine does not mean that Mary convinced him to do so.

**Again I would stress that Jesus lived his life to do the will of the Father, not anyone else.**And again, the fact that Mary asked him in no way means that Mary asked for something the Father did not will, or that Jesus acted against his Father’s will.

 

[Shiann]

HilaryJ:

Mary was human.

A human who perfectly accepted the will of the Father.

 

[Axion]

oudave:

You can stretch this out as far as you want, you still havent made you case as Mary being intercessor.

No case has to be made for Mary being intercessor.

Scripture states quite clearly

1. Christians should intercede for one another and the world.
2. Intercession is beneficial and has good results
3. The intercession of a righteous person is very powerful.

Mary is a righteous Christian, part of the body of Christ, mother of His brethren, and will intercede for us.

Sharing time with Jesus and someone else is taking time away from Jesus no matter how you look at it.

By that reckoning sharing time on this board, speaking to your family, cleaning your teeth is “taking time away from Jesus”. Do you do any of these things? How do you justify it?

I got a question, do you think that Jesus is just to busy taking care of the worlds problems that he needs someone to take prayers down for him? Why do you have such a hard time just going to him in prayer?

The Scriptures tell us to intercede for one another. They say this has value. That is good enough for me. Do you have a “hard time” going to Jesus in prayer when you ask someone else to pray for you?

and tell dont me that its just like asking a friend to pray for me because its not. I ask a friend to pray TO God for me, you pray TO or AT someone to pray to God for you.

That’s just semantics and poor ones at that. We ask the heavenly saints to join us in our prayers to God. The thing is identical to asking someone here to pray for us. You are just hung up on the idea that the heavenly Saints are locked away in a closed room somewhere unable to pray for us, despite the scriptural references to the contrary.

If I were to pray to my friend Jerry like this, Dear Jerry I pray that you would ask God to help me with my job. That would be idolitry

Absolute nonsense! The word “pray” simply means “ask”. You are fooled by the fact that English is constantly changing so that “pray” is rarely used outside church any more.

Consider the word “ghost” and holy

 

[Lorarose]

Mary was human.

Uh huh…has anyone here claimed she isn’t?

 

[Schabel]

oudave:

you still havent made you case as Mary being intercessor. Sharing time with Jesus and someone else is taking time away from Jesus no matter how you look at it. I got a question, do you think that Jesus is just to busy taking care of the worlds problems that he needs someone to take prayers down for him? Why do you have such a hard time just going to him in prayer? and tell dont me that its just like asking a friend to pray for me because its not. I ask a friend to pray TO God for me, you pray TO or AT someone to pray to God for you. If I were to pray to my friend Jerry like this, Dear Jerry I pray that you would ask God to help me with my job. That would be idolitry and I think you know that, but if I ask Jerry to remember me in his prayers that he offers up to God, then we are putting nothing before God. He is an Awsome God and should always be first in our lives.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

I really don’t see the distinction in your two requests for “Jerry” to pray for you.

 

[john_ennis]

oudave:

I ask a friend to pray TO God for me, you pray TO or AT someone to pray to God for you. If I were to pray to my friend Jerry like this, Dear Jerry I pray that you would ask God to help me with my job. That would be idolitry and I think you know that, but if I ask Jerry to remember me in his prayers that he offers up to God, then we are putting nothing before God. He is an Awsome God and should always be first in our lives.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

But God made it clear that he was accepting Job’s prayers, on his friends’ behalf, because of Job’s righteousness. Job was specifically praying for them, wasn’t he? Not an idolatrous prayer.

And no Catholic thinks Jesus NEEDS us to pray. He doesn’t need you or me to spread the Word either, does he? He doesn’t need you or me to be instruments for sharing His love. Yet we’re called to do it. He doesn’t need us to intercede. He ALLOWS us to intercede for each other, giving the prayers value by his Grace. It is a means by which we and the saints participate in His love.

Revelation 5:8 has the prayers of the saints on earth going to the father through the 24 elders in heaven, recognized as the leaders of God’s people now in heaven.
Revelation 8:3-4 has the angels involved in presenting prayers to God.

He gave her to you from the cross; why not accept it?

Peace.
John

 

[oudave]

Schabel:

I really don’t see the distinction in your two requests for “Jerry” to pray for you.

Hi
The difference is that I don’t pray *to * Jerry, I ask Jerry to pray for me.
Catholics actually prat to or at Mary and the Saints, big difference.
Dave.

 

[jimmy]

oudave:

Hi
The difference is that I don’t pray *to *Jerry, I ask Jerry to pray for me.
Catholics actually prat to or at Mary and the Saints, big difference.
Dave.

Yes, you actually do pray to Jerry. To pray simply means, to beg. When you pray the Hail Mary and ask Mary to pray for you it is exactly the same, except Mary is in heaven.

 

[jimmy]

HilaryJ:

I am trying to learn more about the catholic faith. I had some questions about this issue and would appreciate some honest answers. Here is the response that I first received.
"you ask a good question. There are at least three issues that you raise in your questions, but these issues do not belong on this thread. If you need answers to the questions then it might be a good idea to start a new thread:

issue 1 What is meant by the term “intercessor”
issue 2 Why is Mary recognized as an “Intercessor” (please read John chapter 2 and if you still do not get it, then ask again)
issue 3. How can Mary be an intercessor after death? This is an issue that relates to what is meant in the Scripture by death. This is a separate issue from the first two issues and requires its own thread."
I did read John chapter 2 and I still don’t get it. Also I would like an explanation of the other two issues as well. Thank you in advance for your response. I really would like to have an educated understanding of this issue.
:tiphat:

An intercessor is just someone who acts on your behalf before God.

Mary is an intercessor in that when we pray to her and ask her to pray for us, she will. She prays for us.

Christ is an intercessor, and the only intercessor in this sense, because he actually died on the cross and saved us from death and sin. He interceded for us with God to save us from death.

Do you see the major difference between the two? Christ actually saved us.

Mary can be an intercessor after death because she is still alive. Those who have died have risen. There is the particular judgement and the general judgement. The particular judgement is the rising of the soul after death. The general judgement is the rising of the body with the soul at the end of the world. So, since all the saints are still alive, they can pray for us. Mary was the greatest disciple of Christ on earth, so she is the greatest disciple in heaven and is the greatest intercessor of all the saints.

It is also believed that Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul like Enoch and Elijah. Now this is different than the ascension because Mary was assumed by the power of God, Christ ascended by his own power.

 

[jimmy]

HilaryJ:

Mary was human.

No one on here will deny that Mary was human.

 

[jimmy]

HilaryJ:

I understand, and believe that we should pray for one another. I guess I just don’t understand how Mary can even hear your prayers since she is in heaven. Also if you can offer your prayers to God via Jesus directly why pray to someone who is dead. While I understand praying for our living brothers and sisters, I just don’t understand the concept of prayer to anyone other than God, much less the how. Thanks again.

When you pray to a saint and ask them to pray for you it is like two people praying for you. Plus, that person you ask to pray for you has already been cleansed of all attachment to sin and is completely free. Thier prayers are more sincere than yours or mine can ever be on earth.

Second, Mary can hear our prayers because God makes them heard to her. God gives her and all saints the ability to hear our prayers to them. Since God is all powerful, he can do this. Since it is heaven, a perfect place, where all love God perfectly, it would not be surprising that Mary and the saints would want to hear our prayers and to help us. And since it is heaven, and these are all Gods faithful servants and he loves them, he does not mind allowing them to help show us the way and make us strong.

 

[oudave]

jimmy:

When you pray to a saint and ask them to pray for you it is like two people praying for you. Plus, that person you ask to pray for you has already been cleansed of all attachment to sin and is completely free. Thier prayers are more sincere than yours or mine can ever be on earth.

Second, Mary can hear our prayers because God makes them heard to her. God gives her and all saints the ability to hear our prayers to them. Since God is all powerful, he can do this. Since it is heaven, a perfect place, where all love God perfectly, it would not be surprising that Mary and the saints would want to hear our prayers and to help us. And since it is heaven, and these are all Gods faithful servants and he loves them, he does not mind allowing them to help show us the way and make us strong.

Hi
This is crazy, why is it so hard to understand this? You started your post saying the very same point I have been trying to make. You said
‘‘When you pray TO a saint’’. Praying to anything other than God IS idolitry. Please stop for just a moment and think this thru.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

oudave:

Hi
This is crazy, why is it so hard to understand this? You started your post saying the very same point I have been trying to make. You said
‘‘When you pray TO a saint’’. Praying to anything other than God IS idolitry. Please stop for just a moment and think this thru.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

To pray to a Saint means to ask!So Oudave by your own definition when you ask someone to pray for you,then you are indeed guilty of idioltry

 

[oudave]

Lorarose:

It’s been awhile since I’ve read something so full of anti-catholic bigotry and ignorance.

Please prove to me that catholics claim that Jesus worshipped His mother?
Please prove to me that catholics worship Mary.

BTW - is anyone going to address the role the queen mother played during the davidic monarchies or not?

Is Jesus a davidic king or not?

*Hi *
I’ve seen Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary, thats worshiping.
Dave.

 

[jimmy]

oudave:

Hi
This is crazy, why is it so hard to understand this? You started your post saying the very same point I have been trying to make. You said
‘‘When you pray TO a saint’’. Praying to anything other than God IS idolitry. Please stop for just a moment and think this thru.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

First of all I wasn’t responding to you and I didn’t read all your posts because it would have taken too long to read 110 posts.

Second, like I said in another post, to pray means simply to ask.

Third, you need to figure out what it means to worship, because obviously you do not know.

Worshiping the bible like you do, is idolotry.