Mary as an intercessor?

[Church_Militant]

Yeah I know what you mean…See posts 123 and 144…and they ignore them like they aren’t there. Maybe they figure that if they just ignore it long enough that it will go away and they won’t have to face that clear scriptural aspect of Mary’s motherhood of the Messiah.

I mean it’s about enough to make ya wanna :banghead: LOL!

Pax vobiscum all,

 

[MaggieOH]

oudave:

Hi
You should go back and read my posts. I have NEVER said anything bad about Mary, as a matter of FACT I have said that I am sure that Mary was the most Holy woman to have or ever lived.
** All I have ever said about Mary that makes you mad is that she sinned** at the very least one time because scripture says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I also dont think that it is fair that you say things about me that you know nothing about, I will go back and check but this might be the FIRST time that I have used the headbanging face in my posts. This something that you have made up, why I dont know.
You will be more credible if you dont make things up.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Oudave,

:tsktsk: I really should take a cricket bat to your bottom because you have made a statement in your post that means that you deny that Jesus is the Christ. I have bolded your statement because I know that we have already been through this with you.

Now let’s get the record straight by using the Scripture alone:

Genesis 3:15 “I will make you enemies of each other, you and the woman, your offspring and her offspring.”

The woman in this verse is not Eve, because Eve had already befriended Satan. The Woman who is promised in this verse is to be an enemy of Satan. Eve failed to qualify for that role because of her disobedience.

Exodus 19: 22 “The priests, the men **who do approach Yahweh even these must purify themselves or Yahweh will break out against them.”

**These passages are very important when it comes to understanding the nature of the greeting of the angel to Mary. “Hail, full of grace” (Luke 1:28)

Mary is given a title because she is already favoured by God. It is a title that is conferred upon Mary by the angel, and that is why she is perplexed by this greeting.

The passage that you use to claim that Mary has sinned is one that is thrown around by those who do not properly understand how to read Scripture in a whole of context method. Like so many others you are used to being given a few texts only, but the other side of the coin seems to be lacking.

When St. Paul spoke to the Romans and said "All have sinned, he was not speaking of a universal all. That interpretation is something that is very modern and it is very much in error. Within its proper context, St. Paul is speaking to an audience of Christians that are made up of those who were Gentile and those who were Jew. He is addressing them to remind them that they are not to pass judgement on each other because both Genile and Jew have sinned against God.

The universal application of the “all” is quite senseless because on my occasions the Scripture speaks about the man who walks in the way of the Lord. I point to two examples from the Old Testament: Elijah and Enoch. The Lord was so pleased with these men they were not allowed to die in the flesh. There are other examples in the New Testament:

“In the days of King Herod of Judea there lived a priest called Zechariah who belonged to the Abijah section of the priesthood, and he had a wife, Elizabeth by name, who was a descendant of Aaron.** Both were worthy in the sight of the Lord, and scrupulously observed all the commandments of the Lord. But they were childless…” (Luke 1:5-6)

**“Her husband Joseph, **being a man of honour…” (Matt 1: 19)

**See, these are just a few examples of those considered righteous in the eyes of God, and who are identified as never having committed an offence towards God. It is the same with Mary. If she had ever sinned, she would not have been given the title FULL OF GRACE.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

oudave:

Hi
You should go back and read my posts. I have NEVER said anything bad about Mary, as a matter of FACT I have said that I am sure that Mary was the most Holy woman to have or ever lived.
** All I have ever said about Mary that makes you mad is that she sinned** at the very least one time because scripture says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I also dont think that it is fair that you say things about me that you know nothing about, I will go back and check but this might be the FIRST time that I have used the headbanging face in my posts. This something that you have made up, why I dont know.
You will be more credible if you dont make things up.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Oudave,

:tsktsk: I really should take a cricket bat to your bottom because you have made a statement in your post that means that you deny that Jesus is the Christ. I have bolded your statement because I know that we have already been through this with you.

Now let’s get the record straight by using the Scripture alone:

Genesis 3:15 “I will make you enemies of each other, you and the woman, your offspring and her offspring.”

The woman in this verse is not Eve, because Eve had already befriended Satan. The Woman who is promised in this verse is to be an enemy of Satan. Eve failed to qualify for that role because of her disobedience.

Exodus 19: 22 “The priests, the men **who do approach Yahweh even these must purify themselves or Yahweh will break out against them.”

**These passages are very important when it comes to understanding the nature of the greeting of the angel to Mary. “Hail, full of grace” (Luke 1:28)

Mary is given a title because she is already favoured by God. It is a title that is conferred upon Mary by the angel, and that is why she is perplexed by this greeting.

The passage that you use to claim that Mary has sinned is one that is thrown around by those who do not properly understand how to read Scripture in a whole of context method. Like so many others you are used to being given a few texts only, but the other side of the coin seems to be lacking.

When St. Paul spoke to the Romans and said "All have sinned, he was not speaking of a universal all. That interpretation is something that is very modern and it is very much in error. Within its proper context, St. Paul is speaking to an audience of Christians that are made up of those who were Gentile and those who were Jew. He is addressing them to remind them that they are not to pass judgement on each other because both Genile and Jew have sinned against God.

The universal application of the “all” is quite senseless because on my occasions the Scripture speaks about the man who walks in the way of the Lord. I point to two examples from the Old Testament: Elijah and Enoch. The Lord was so pleased with these men they were not allowed to die in the flesh. There are other examples in the New Testament:

“In the days of King Herod of Judea there lived a priest called Zechariah who belonged to the Abijah section of the priesthood, and he had a wife, Elizabeth by name, who was a descendant of Aaron.** Both were worthy in the sight of the Lord, and scrupulously observed all the commandments of the Lord. But they were childless…” (Luke 1:5-6)

**“Her husband Joseph, **being a man of honour…” (Matt 1: 19)

**See, these are just a few examples of those considered righteous in the eyes of God, and who are identified as never having committed an offence towards God. It is the same with Mary. If she had ever sinned, she would not have been given the title FULL OF GRACE.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

Church Militant:

Poor Dave,
(Here have a couple of aspirins…)
This has to be about THE lamest thing I have ever seen you post.
Are gonna come in here and tell us that you are dumb enough to believe this? That you think we are too stupid to tell the difference between a piece of plaster or metal or a picture and the almighty creator of the universe? If so then I am saddened that you have publicly displayed such culpable ignorance and gullibility or else just plain mallice of intent. This is just plain shameful.

You also have neglected to answer my post above where I point out the inconsistency of your apppeal to the 1st commandment and why. Whatsamatta Dave? Too obviously Biblical for ya? Here. I’ll post it again right here so that you can’t miss it this time.

I know you don’t like me because I call you on so much stuff, but when you’re wrong on this stuff you ARE wrong and someone has to TRY to get you to use your head and the Holy Spirit’s guidance to get past all these lies and misinformation that you’ve been spoonfed.

DAVE!
Read the graven image part of the first commandment here:
Exodus 20:1-5

“1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:”

It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as you preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolators at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe. So pack up this argument and put it in the garbage can where it rightfully belongs my friend.

BTW: You still have never answered my clear Biblical points about the Blessed Virgin’s position as “Giberah” to the Messiah. Nor have any of your other non-Catholic friends. This is VERY relevent to this thread, since it certifies Mary’s role as intercessor for the Church. Why no answers?

Pax vobiscum,

:tsktsk: careful CM our friend is trying to use another diversionary tactic. Remember to pray the Our Father before responding to such posts.

MaggieOH

 

[Bishopite]

HilaryJ:

I am trying to learn more about the catholic faith. I had some questions about this issue and would appreciate some honest answers. Here is the response that I first received.
"you ask a good question. There are at least three issues that you raise in your questions, but these issues do not belong on this thread. If you need answers to the questions then it might be a good idea to start a new thread:

issue 1 What is meant by the term “intercessor”
issue 2 Why is Mary recognized as an “Intercessor” (please read John chapter 2 and if you still do not get it, then ask again)
issue 3. How can Mary be an intercessor after death? This is an issue that relates to what is meant in the Scripture by death. This is a separate issue from the first two issues and requires its own thread."
I did read John chapter 2 and I still don’t get it. Also I would like an explanation of the other two issues as well. Thank you in advance for your response. I really would like to have an educated understanding of this issue.
:tiphat:

First of all, God does NOT need an intercessor because He is completely full of Glory, Holiness and Sovereignty; bottome line is God doesn’t need anyone. However, God chooses to have intercessors for that’s the way He has created us, to behave and to intercede for each other as one family as His family. Since all who are in His grace are in His family; we are all part of the body of Christ (Eph 5:30,1Cor 12:20-27, Rom 12:4-5) and are told to intercede for each other, (Eph 6:18-19, Col 4:3, 1 Thes 5:25)

Answer to issue 1
An intercessor is one who goes between one person and another in prayer, petition, or entreaty in favor of another. So that person is looking out for the other person not just themselves. We all in one way or another intercede for each other at times, yet Christians do so in the body of Christ because we are looking to others as better than ourselves as Paul says in Romans.

Answer to issue 2
John 2:1-5
1: On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;
2: Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples.

Jesus knows that the wine is gone because He knows everything, He’s God, yet He responds to Mary’s intercession asking Him when He is going to give the wine.

3: When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
4: And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

The term “woman” isn’t derogatory but one of respect used in Hebrew culture.

5: His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Mary leads us to Jesus as do all the Saints. As do those who wittness to other about Christ.

Mary intercedes for the people in the wedding feast and says “Do whatever He tells you.” Mary is the one who starts Jesus’ public ministry which starts in John 2.

Mary is a true intercessor because she is the mother of Jesus who is God the second person of the Holy Trinity. She is alive in Heaven along with all others who have followed Christ.

Issue 3

How can Mary intercede after death? Can those in Heaven here our prayers?

Many non-Catholic Christians only think of someone being truly alive when they are on this Earth, yet when one is in Heaven with God that person in MORE alive than we could ever be down here because they are in God’s presence.

James 5:16 not only says for us to for one another but that a prayer of a righteous many availeth much. Are there any people more righteous than those in Heaven? No, not at all.

So do the Saints in Heaven like Mary hear our prayers and give them to God? Yes, and the Bible says so in Rev. 5:8 an angel offers prayers for the holy ones of God. Rev 8:4 says “The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up befor God from the hand of the angel.”

Surely we know Mary is in Heaven with her Son Jesus, surely Scripture talks about those in Heaven who bring our prayers to God, surely Scripture in Luke 15 says the all of heaven rejoices when one sinner repents.

If they rejoice somehow someway in eternity they can hear us and we can ask them to pray for us; surely we can as the one who is closest to Jesus, Mary to pray for us.

Prayer to the Saint are a ONE WAY prayer in that we ask them to intercede for us as our big brother and sisters that have gone ahead of us.

We never pray outside the body of Christ! How then you ask do we pray to or ask Mary to pray for us? Because she is also in the body of Christ.

Hope that helps.

 

[oudave]

jimmy:

So Jesus sinned and all of Christianity is a waste because Jesus was not what he claimed to be.

Hi
Why dont we just go to the Bible on this one. Go ahead and read
2 Cor 5:21 and 1 John 3:5 I think you will agree with me on what it says.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

 

[MaggieOH]

oudave:

Hi
Why dont we just go to the Bible on this one. Go ahead and read
2 Cor 5:21 and 1 John 3:5 I think you will agree with me on what it says.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

You did not answer the question. Why do you apply a universal argument to Mary, but refuse to do the same with Jesus.

Also you have avoided Genesis 3:15. If Jesus is the Messiah, then he is the seed of the Woman as prophesied in Genesis. Who then is the mother of Jesus (who is God)? It is Mary who was chosen for this role.

Now, Genesis 3:15 says that the Woman will be the enemy of Satan. If this woman had sinned, then how could she be the enemy of Satan? If she had sinned would she not have preferred to give into the temptation of Satan over obedience to God?

Do you see what I mean?

Maggie

 

[jimmy]

oudave:

Hi
Why dont we just go to the Bible on this one. Go ahead and read
2 Cor 5:21 and 1 John 3:5 I think you will agree with me on what it says.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

No, You quoted the bible as saying ALL have sinned. Jesus is included in ALL. He is just as much man as anyone else. Hence he is included. Otherwise that ALL would not be quite the ALL you say it is.

The truth is that the ALL is part of a general statement that is not meant to be all inclusive.

 

[oudave]

jimmy:

No, You quoted the bible as saying ALL have sinned. Jesus is included in ALL. He is just as much man as anyone else. Hence he is included. Otherwise that ALL would not be quite the ALL you say it is.

The truth is that the ALL is part of a general statement that is not meant to be all inclusive.

Hi
*Come on jimmy, read the whole scripture. ***
*Rom 3:23 ***For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
*We all fall short of God’s glory, Jesus is God. I think that you already knew that, or I at least hope you did. *
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[oudave]

MaggieOH:

You did not answer the question. Why do you apply a universal argument to Mary, but refuse to do the same with Jesus.

Also you have avoided Genesis 3:15. If Jesus is the Messiah, then he is the seed of the Woman as prophesied in Genesis. Who then is the mother of Jesus (who is God)? It is Mary who was chosen for this role.

Now, Genesis 3:15 says that the Woman will be the enemy of Satan. If this woman had sinned, then how could she be the enemy of Satan? If she had sinned would she not have preferred to give into the temptation of Satan over obedience to God?

Do you see what I mean?

Hi Maggie
I have a question, when scripture talks of ‘‘the woman’’ in verse 15 of Gen chapter 3, who is it refuring to in verse 16 when it says
‘‘the woman’’?
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

 

[Church_Militant]

Lorarose:

Thanks Maryj!!

I’m glad SOMEBODY here is willing to discuss the OT office of queen mother as it relates to the mother of the messiah.

Some folks here seem to be rather adverse to this obvious foreshadowing in the OT.

Church Militant

  Yeah I know what you mean...See posts 123 and 144...and they ignore them like they aren't there. Maybe they figure that if they just ignore it long enough that it will go away and they won't have to face that clear scriptural aspect of Mary's motherhood of the Messiah.

I mean it’s about enough to make ya wanna :banghead: LOL!

Pax vobiscum all,

No Dave…I’m not gonna let ya off the hook with this. You came in here spoilin’ for a debate with us and now that we offer you clearly Biblical evidence that can’t be contradicted…you attempt to ignore it? That smacks of dishonesty… Why are you like this?
You even allege we are idolators and yet refuse to answer my very simple and clear Biblical evidence to the contrary… Why?
Is Jimmy supposedly easier pickins? I doubt that. ( Jimmy!) Besides your references to Romans and all have sinned have nothing whatsoever to do with Mary as an Intercessor and so is just an off topic diversion (again).

 

[Lorarose]

<Hi
Come on jimmy, read the whole scripture.
Rom 3:23 For allhave sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
We all fall short of God’s glory, Jesus is God. I think that you already knew that, or I at least hope you did.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.>

So…because the scripture literally says “all” - does that mean we should include stillborn/aborted children? Infants? toddlers? Any child who is under the age of reason?
Even though we know these children are incapable of committing personal sin because they do not yet have the comprehension to commit it?
They would be included in “all” wouldn’t they?

Besides - this has nothing to do with Mary’s ability to intercede.​

Did I see you accuse Maggie of AVOIDING an issue?

Pretty silly coming from you don’t ya think?

When are you going to address the issue of the role of the queen mother in the davidic kingdoms?

 

[maryj]

heh oudave, God is talking to Eve! obviously you are not reading correctly if you are trying to insinuate that Mary is the woman in verse 16. wo-man, for out of her man has this one come forth!

I shall be the defender of Mary. Peace

 

[MaggieOH]

Hi
*Come on jimmy, read the whole scripture. ***
*Rom 3:23 ***For allhave sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
*We all fall short of God’s glory, Jesus is God. I think that you already knew that, or I at least hope you did. *
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Why not read the whole context of Romans and then you will see that St. Paul was not making a universal statement with the “all”. He was explicitly referring to the fact that people have a tendency to pass judgement on others without considering their own sins. Or another way of putting it, he is saying that no one group of Christians or Gentiles or Jews should think of themselves as superior or as the elect.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

oudave:

MaggieOH:

You did not answer the question. Why do you apply a universal argument to Mary, but refuse to do the same with Jesus.

Also you have avoided Genesis 3:15. If Jesus is the Messiah, then he is the seed of the Woman as prophesied in Genesis. Who then is the mother of Jesus (who is God)? It is Mary who was chosen for this role.

Now, Genesis 3:15 says that the Woman will be the enemy of Satan. If this woman had sinned, then how could she be the enemy of Satan? If she had sinned would she not have preferred to give into the temptation of Satan over obedience to God?

Do you see what I mean?

Hi Maggie

I have a question, when scripture talks of ‘‘the woman’’ in verse 15 of Gen chapter 3, who is it refuring to in verse 16 when it says
‘‘the woman’’?
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
Hi Dave,

did your apologist book make this distinction for you? 'cos who ever thought up the question is not all that bright in my opinion.

Go back a few verses and you will see that in verse 14 God is addressing Satan, and because He is addressing Satan He is talking about a future event - the Incarnation. He is not referencing Eve.

Now examine verse 15 where it uses the terminology “her seed and your seed” in some translations. Women do not have “seed”. They have eggs. God is not talking about Eve who became pregnant and gave birth in the normal way. He is referencing the Woman who will bear the Messiah. That woman is Mary. If you had kept on reading you will find that God then addresses Adam, and Scripture says: “to the man he said” (Gen 3:17)

In other words, God is addressing each of the transgressors separately. What He said to Satan is what we call the Protoevangelium because it is the promise of what is to happen through the Incarnation.

MaggieOH

 

[jimmy]

Hi
*Come on jimmy, read the whole scripture. *****
***Rom 3:23 ***For allhave sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
*We all fall short of God’s glory, Jesus is God. I think that you already knew that, or I at least hope you did. *
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

And you are making an exception to an absolute. Unless you did not know, Christ was a man and he was able to fall short of the glory of God. He had the free will to. Look at the temptation of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. You either have to admit that Christ sinned or you have to accept that there are exceptions to the word all.

 

[Church_Militant]

jimmy:

And you are making an exception to an absolute. Unless you did not know, Christ was a man and he was able to fall short of the glory of God. He had the free will to. Look at the temptation of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. You either have to admit that Christ sinned or you have to accept that there are exceptions to the word all.

Jimmy…see my new improved thread on this very topic so we don’t get pulled off topic here okay? I think we might be onto to really good thread topic here.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[MaggieOH]

In Him and Him Only, Dave.
[/quote]

Dave,

I recommend that you go and take 2 Tylenol so that you can deal with the headache that you are giving to yourself.

When you are done with the Tylenol, I recommend that you go read the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke until it sinks in.

Then go read the Gospel of John Chapter 2 to ensure that you finally understand God’s truth.

MaggieOH

 

[Des]

These are not my words but make a good point.

Rom 3:23: "****for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…"
The problem with this is that the word ‘ALL’ here is the Greek word, **’**PAS’, which can have different meanings to the absolute that we immediately think of as shown in other verses of Holy Scripture.

John 12:19, “**All the world has gone after him!” **Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ?

Mt 3:5-6, “Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

Luke 2:1 “And an order went out from caesar Augustus that ALL the world should be counted.”
Was everyone in the whole world counted?

Rom 11:26, “ALL Israel shall be saved.” Will everyone in Israel truly be saved?

Rom 15:14, “…you yourselves are full of love, filled with ALL knowledge…” The only person filled with ‘ALL’ knowledge is God Himself.

The Greek word ‘PAS’ in many verses in Scripture simply means a ‘great number’, ‘most of’, or ‘a lot’. So its appearance in the quoted passage can in no way be used as an objection to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary.

cont…

 

[Des]

…cont…

Mother of all Christians:
John 19.25: Near the cross of Jesus, stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on the disciple took her into his home.

This is not just a personal bequest of his Mother to John, but, being from the cross itself, has a greater significance. First of all, if Jesus were merely asking John to take care of Mary, He would have made His first request to John. But if you look at the passage, you will see that His first statement is to Mary. The emphasis is therefore upon Mary being Mother to John, not John “looking after” Mary. John here represents all the disciples of Jesus, and hence all Christians, who are given Mary as their Mother.

Mary Immaculate
We can see that in Luke 1.46 Mary speaks of God as her Saviour, but she speaks in the** present tense**. She does not say “God, who will be my Saviour.” She has already been redeemed.

If we look at one of the Old Testament passages that Mary bases her words upon, we see this more clearly.

Isaiah 51.10 **I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall exult in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. **

As virtually every educated 1st Century Jew would have recognised, in echoing this passage, Mary clearly considered that God had already clothed her with the garments of salvation**, and covered herwith the robe of righteousness****. **Her sin had already been wiped away.

This is supported by the angel’s greeting to Mary:

Luke 1.28: The angel went to her and said, "Hail, you who are full of grace (Literally: you who have been and remain filled with Grace). The Lord is with you."

Grace in the New Testament is seen as the antidote to sin. (Rom 3:24, 5:15-17, 6:14 11:6) So being filled with Grace strongly implies sinlessness. And since Mary required the grace of redemption before her own birth, it is quite fitting that this happened at her conception. Is this a problem for God? No. Jesus is the perfect Redeemer. Therefore he must have redeemed one person perfectly. That person is Mary, having been redeemed by Jesus from Original Sin from the moment of her own conception.