M
Mickey
Guest
- “The Hail Mary” is scriptural
- Catholic pray with her. (she didn’t cease to exist)
- She is the Mother of God. (unless of course you subscribe to the arian heresy or the nestorian heresy)
- Status
O
oudave
Guest
:banghead:
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
S
Shiann
Guest
[/quote]
I’m curious what you thought would happen, when you come to a CATHOLIC forum, where we all love our spiritual Mother?
You bang your head like you expected to show up, drop your opinions and have everyone go against logic and scripture to join you…
I guess if that was your expectation, I can see why you are so frustrated.
I will pray for you…
Now isn’t that ironic.
I’m curious what you thought would happen, when you come to a CATHOLIC forum, where we all love our spiritual Mother?
You bang your head like you expected to show up, drop your opinions and have everyone go against logic and scripture to join you…
I guess if that was your expectation, I can see why you are so frustrated.
I will pray for you…
Now isn’t that ironic.
J
jimmy
Guest
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
[/quote]
What does this mean?
[/quote]
What does this mean?
J
jimmy
Guest
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
[/quote]
What does this mean?
[/quote]
What does this mean?
J
jimmy
Guest
A hail Mary would do him good.I’m curious what you thought would happen, when you come to a CATHOLIC forum, where we all love our spiritual Mother?
You bang your head like you expected to show up, drop your opinions and have everyone go against logic and scripture to join you…
I guess if that was your expectation, I can see why you are so frustrated.
I will pray for you…
Now isn’t that ironic.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
oudave said:
Poor Dave,
(Here have a couple of aspirins…)
This has to be about THE lamest thing I have ever seen you post.
Are gonna come in here and tell us that you are dumb enough to believe this? That you think we are too stupid to tell the difference between a piece of plaster or metal or a picture and the almighty creator of the universe? If so then I am saddened that you have publicly displayed such culpable ignorance and gullibility or else just plain mallice of intent. This is just plain shameful.
You also have neglected to answer my post above where I point out the inconsistency of your apppeal to the 1st commandment and why. Whatsamatta Dave? Too obviously Biblical for ya? Here. I’ll post it again right here so that you can’t miss it this time.
I know you don’t like me because I call you on so much stuff, but when you’re wrong on this stuff you ARE wrong and someone has to TRY to get you to use your head and the Holy Spirit’s guidance to get past all these lies and misinformation that you’ve been spoonfed.
DAVE!
Read the graven image part of the first commandment here:
Exodus 20:1-5
“1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:”
It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as you preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolators at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe. So pack up this argument and put it in the garbage can where it rightfully belongs my friend.
BTW: You still have never answered my clear Biblical points about the Blessed Virgin’s position as “Giberah” to the Messiah. Nor have any of your other non-Catholic friends. This is VERY relevent to this thread, since it certifies Mary’s role as intercessor for the Church. Why no answers?
Pax vobiscum,
M
Mickey
Guest
Hi Shiann,I’m curious what you thought would happen, when you come to a CATHOLIC forum, where we all love our spiritual Mother?
You bang your head like you expected to show up, drop your opinions and have everyone go against logic and scripture to join you…
I guess if that was your expectation, I can see why you are so frustrated.
I will pray for you…
Now isn’t that ironic.
If you are not familiar with oudave, he has a particular disdain for The Mother of God. In fact, He always posts the head banger icon when he hears her referred to as The Mother of God. He rejects that term. It has been explained to him many times that denial of The Ever Virgin Mary as The Mother of God is to deny the hyposatatic union which is line with the arian and nestorian heresies. I really do think that he expected everyone on this forum to immediately convert to protestantism when he revealed his revisionist truth to us. Go figure!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_1_8.gif
J
jimmy
Guest
So he does not believe the words that Elizabeth spoke in chapter 1 of Luke when she calls Mary the MOTHER of her Lord.
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Mickey
Guest
I let him tell you what he thinks that means. He twists the interpretation.
S
Shiann
Guest
I’m painfully aware of oudave, and his positions. Hence a bit of irony in my post. (He is denying the benefit of intercessory prayer- and more specifically Marian intercessory prayer. I told him I would pray for him.)
I’m still gonna pray for him. And also beseech Mother Mary to pray for him as well (good call jimmy!)
C
Church_Militant
Guest
joehar,
If this was true then every prayer request you’ve ever asked for or honored has been unscriptural and idolatrous since you are not Christ and according to your own words He is the only one who can intercede for us. This is so obviously an unscriptural position that I make it only by way of rhetoric.
The passage you are misquoting is 1st Timothy 2:5 and it says: " For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:" so you have not only misconstrued this verse but pulled it all out of context as well. (Shame on you… :tsktsk: ).
If you had bothered to read and quote the context you would pretty quickly realize just how outta whack your self inspired interpretation really is. Here’s the 2 verses ahead of it that show what St.Paul was actually talking about.
“3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Mediation is not the same as intercession. Christ’s mediation for us is salvific in this passage and if you back up a couple of verses more you’ll see that Paul is telling them to Offer prayers of intercession for themselves and others BECAUSE of Christ’s mediation and sacrifice for us all.
Here, see what I mean…
“1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers,
intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity”
In context your whole premiss just falls apart. BTW I checked my exhaustive concordance and NOWHERE in the NT does it say that Jesus is our only intercessor.
However:
I HAVE provided you and your buddy Dave a very important Bible study project that none of you have answered so far concerning the meaning of the Hebrew word “Giberah” in the OT and who they were and what their Biblical function was. This is very important since it is directly related to Mary’s intercessory role for Christians.
Pax vobiscum,
M
mercygate
Guest
Nah! That’s just your Catholic Bible, Jimmy! And don’t clutter the discussion with any of your Arianism and Nestorianism; that’s not in the Bible. Anyway, “Lord” in that verse doesn’t mean Lord as in ‘Son of God,’ it means Lord as in . . . um . . . whatever else “lord” can mean as long as it doesn’t point to Mary as the Mother of God – even if Jesus is God and also the son of Mary (as the Bible tells us he is. Thomas calls him: “My Lord and my God.” And he is certainly “the son of Mary”)
Sometimes people think that Mary, to be the Mother of God, would have to be older than God. You would think that when a ridiculous idea like that pops into their heads, they would say to themselves: “Older than God? That can’t be. I wonder what Catholics (and Orthodox and mainstream Protestants) really DO mean by calling her ‘Mother of God’? They MUST have some kind of explanation that makes sense.”
C
Church_Militant
Guest
I love the sense of humor that you guys bring to this nutward…
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/smly13.gif
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/smly13.gif
O
oudave
Guest
Hi
You should go back and read my posts. I have NEVER said anything bad about Mary, as a matter of FACT I have said that I am sure that Mary was the most Holy woman to have or ever lived.
All I have ever said about Mary that makes you mad is that she sinned at the very least one time because scripture says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I also dont think that it is fair that you say things about me that you know nothing about, I will go back and check but this might be the FIRST time that I have used the headbanging face in my posts. This something that you have made up, why I dont know.
You will be more credible if you dont make things up.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
O
oudave
Guest
Hi
You should go back and read my posts. I have NEVER said anything bad about Mary, as a matter of FACT I have said that I am sure that Mary was the most Holy woman to have or ever lived.
All I have ever said about Mary that makes you mad is that she sinned at the very least one time because scripture says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I also dont think that it is fair that you say things about me that you know nothing about, I will go back and check but this might be the FIRST time that I have used the headbanging face in my posts. This something that you have made up, why I dont know.
You will be more credible if you dont make things up.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
J
jimmy
Guest
So Jesus sinned and all of Christianity is a waste because Jesus was not what he claimed to be.
M
maryj
Guest
TYPOLOGY- The old testament (OT) prepared the way for the new testament(NT) Persons and events in the OT prefigured, foreshadowed,anticipated, and symbolized persons and events in the NT. According to an ancient Christian saying: The new Testament lies hidden in the Old testament and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New(CCC,n.129)The OT persons and events are called “types” of the NT persons and events they prefigure. A type is a prophetic foreshadowing of its NT counterpart. To fully understand the OT we must read it in terms of types. Typology shows many NT doctrines, including Mary’s priviledges, clearly revealed in the OT. Once we understand the meaning and importance of OT types, we will discover that ALL Catholic beleifs about Mary are found in the Bible. Obviously, we must first read the Bible in a literal sense. All the other senses of scripture-Typological, moral, and analogical- are based on the literal. The NT requires that we read the OT in a typological sense. Consider:
(1) In Mathew 12:40, Jesus teaches that Jonah’s three days in the belly of the great fish foreshadowed Jesus’ three days in the tomb.
(2) In John 3:14 Jesus says that the bronze serpent of Numbers 21:9 symbolized His crucifiction.
(3) In Peter 3:19-21, St. Peter points out that the flood in the time of Noah prefigured Christian baptism.
(4) In 1 Corinthians 10:4, St Peter calls the rock that followed the Israelites in the desert"Christ". Notice he does not say the rock was like Christ; St.Paul says the rock was Christ. He uses this language to stress that the relationship between a type and its NT fullfillment is more than a similarity.
(5) In Romans 5:14, St. Paul specifically callls Adam a type of Christ.
There are three major OT types of Mary: Eve, the Ark of the Covenant, and the Queen Mother. These three types of Mary support ALL Marian beliefs.
The early church Fathers made the obvious connection as Christ as the new Adam(1 Corinthians 15:45) Mary is the new Eve. After Adam and Eve had sinned, Genesis 3:15 prophesies a woman and her son who will be at total enmity(oposition) with the serpent(satan) and his decendents: “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel” The woman’s son will crush the serpent’s head. Since the man who crushes the serpent’s head is obviously Jesus, the woman must be Mary.Thus, Genesis 3:15-17 describes two teams: the fall team of Adam and Eve and the redemption team- Jesus and Mary, the new Adam and Eve. Although the human race fell through Adam, Eve’s role was crucial. Jesus redeemed the human race, but Mary’s role was likewise crucial. Sacred scriptures continually show Jesus and Mary togethar in the pivotal events of our salvation. The Ark was the holiest object in the OT religion. It was sacred because it carried the stone tablests of the Law that God gave to Moses at Mount Sinai. In exodus 25 God gave meticulous instructions for constructing the Ark. It had to be made of acacia wood supposedely incorruptible. It had to be kept free from all impurity and profanation. In 2 Samuel 6:6-7, God struck Uzzah dead because he dared to touch the ark. the connection is clear. That the Ark carried the written Word of God; Mary carried the living Word.
(1) In Mathew 12:40, Jesus teaches that Jonah’s three days in the belly of the great fish foreshadowed Jesus’ three days in the tomb.
(2) In John 3:14 Jesus says that the bronze serpent of Numbers 21:9 symbolized His crucifiction.
(3) In Peter 3:19-21, St. Peter points out that the flood in the time of Noah prefigured Christian baptism.
(4) In 1 Corinthians 10:4, St Peter calls the rock that followed the Israelites in the desert"Christ". Notice he does not say the rock was like Christ; St.Paul says the rock was Christ. He uses this language to stress that the relationship between a type and its NT fullfillment is more than a similarity.
(5) In Romans 5:14, St. Paul specifically callls Adam a type of Christ.
There are three major OT types of Mary: Eve, the Ark of the Covenant, and the Queen Mother. These three types of Mary support ALL Marian beliefs.
The early church Fathers made the obvious connection as Christ as the new Adam(1 Corinthians 15:45) Mary is the new Eve. After Adam and Eve had sinned, Genesis 3:15 prophesies a woman and her son who will be at total enmity(oposition) with the serpent(satan) and his decendents: “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel” The woman’s son will crush the serpent’s head. Since the man who crushes the serpent’s head is obviously Jesus, the woman must be Mary.Thus, Genesis 3:15-17 describes two teams: the fall team of Adam and Eve and the redemption team- Jesus and Mary, the new Adam and Eve. Although the human race fell through Adam, Eve’s role was crucial. Jesus redeemed the human race, but Mary’s role was likewise crucial. Sacred scriptures continually show Jesus and Mary togethar in the pivotal events of our salvation. The Ark was the holiest object in the OT religion. It was sacred because it carried the stone tablests of the Law that God gave to Moses at Mount Sinai. In exodus 25 God gave meticulous instructions for constructing the Ark. It had to be made of acacia wood supposedely incorruptible. It had to be kept free from all impurity and profanation. In 2 Samuel 6:6-7, God struck Uzzah dead because he dared to touch the ark. the connection is clear. That the Ark carried the written Word of God; Mary carried the living Word.
M
maryj
Guest
(continued)
The OT kings clearly prefigured Jesus Christ, the NT King of kings(revelation 19:16). Jesus in His humanity, decended from King David. Therefore, the kings of Judah, who were from David’s line, especially prefigure Jesus’ kingship. Luke 1:32 says,“the Lord God will give to him(Jesus) the throne of his father David.“Interestingly, the wife of the king of Judah was not the queen. The queen was the king’s mother. She had great honor and authority in the kingdom. In 1 Kings 2:19-20 we read;
So Bathseba went to king solomaon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; and he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought to the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. Then she said,” I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her: "make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you,"By honoring his mother and giving her a throne at his right hand, Solomon established an institution that lasted as long as the kings of Judah, nearly four hundred years. The Queen mother served as the king’s confidant and advisor. The Queen mother had an official position; she had to be deposed in order to be removed(1 Kings 15:13) The Holy Spirit, in leading the OT people of Judah to establish the office of Queen Mother, was preparing the way for Mary. Jesus, the NT Davidic King, does not have a wife. His mother would be the NT queen. This is exactly what Revelation 11 and 12 describe. A woman(Mary) gives birth to a son(Jesus) who will rule all nations(12:5) Jesus is a new Solomon. Just as Solomon ruled over other kings (2 Chronicles 9:23-26), Jesus is the “King of kings and Lord of lords” Revelation 19:16). Any king of the house of David would be expected to have a queen mother. That’s precisely what Mary is: the Queen mother of the Messianic King. By studying the great honor and dignity queen mothers had in the OT, we can appreciate the profound role God has given Mary as the New Testament Queen Mother.
Nuff said!!!
I shall be the defender of Mary! Grow in faith all.
The OT kings clearly prefigured Jesus Christ, the NT King of kings(revelation 19:16). Jesus in His humanity, decended from King David. Therefore, the kings of Judah, who were from David’s line, especially prefigure Jesus’ kingship. Luke 1:32 says,“the Lord God will give to him(Jesus) the throne of his father David.“Interestingly, the wife of the king of Judah was not the queen. The queen was the king’s mother. She had great honor and authority in the kingdom. In 1 Kings 2:19-20 we read;
So Bathseba went to king solomaon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; and he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought to the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. Then she said,” I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her: "make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you,"By honoring his mother and giving her a throne at his right hand, Solomon established an institution that lasted as long as the kings of Judah, nearly four hundred years. The Queen mother served as the king’s confidant and advisor. The Queen mother had an official position; she had to be deposed in order to be removed(1 Kings 15:13) The Holy Spirit, in leading the OT people of Judah to establish the office of Queen Mother, was preparing the way for Mary. Jesus, the NT Davidic King, does not have a wife. His mother would be the NT queen. This is exactly what Revelation 11 and 12 describe. A woman(Mary) gives birth to a son(Jesus) who will rule all nations(12:5) Jesus is a new Solomon. Just as Solomon ruled over other kings (2 Chronicles 9:23-26), Jesus is the “King of kings and Lord of lords” Revelation 19:16). Any king of the house of David would be expected to have a queen mother. That’s precisely what Mary is: the Queen mother of the Messianic King. By studying the great honor and dignity queen mothers had in the OT, we can appreciate the profound role God has given Mary as the New Testament Queen Mother.
Nuff said!!!
I shall be the defender of Mary! Grow in faith all.
L
Lorarose
Guest
Thanks Maryj!!
I’m glad SOMEBODY here is willing to discuss the OT office of queen mother as it relates to the mother of the messiah.
Some folks here seem to be rather adverse to this obvious foreshadowing in the OT.
I’m glad SOMEBODY here is willing to discuss the OT office of queen mother as it relates to the mother of the messiah.
Some folks here seem to be rather adverse to this obvious foreshadowing in the OT.
- Status