Mary as an intercessor?

[jimmy]

*Hi *
I’ve seen Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary, thats worshiping.
Dave.

Catholics often kneel when they pray. It isn’t worshiping. I have seen protestants worshiping the bible.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

*Hi *
I’ve seen Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary, thats worshiping.
Dave.

Hey I have seen protestants kneel in front of a pew,So what does the pew do for you Oudave?You think if you say something enough its true we don’t worship statues or Mary,get a handle on yourself man!

 

[MaggieOH]

*Hi *
I’ve seen Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary, thats worshiping.
Dave.

I have seen Protestants, Fundamentalists, Evangelicals and others salute the flag - that is idolatry.
I have seen Christians participate in the Olympics and treat the Olympic flag as if it is something that is holy - that is idolatry.

The worst thing I have seen happens to come from those who erroneously claim that God is inside a book that is called “Bible” - when they say things like “God said” for words written by a human author though inspired by the Holy Spirit then that is tantamount to worshipping ink and paper and that is idolatry because it is creating a false god

A statue of Jesus is not the creation of a false god. It is not the same as a statue of Neptune or Zeus, Diana or even Aphrodite, or Cupid or Eros. That statue represents the person of Jesus Christ who is both God and man. It is not, I repeat not, idolatry. There are no oblations set before a statue of Jesus or Mary or any other saint. Yet, in India there are statues that supposedly represent their gods, and these are gods that do not exist, and they bring oblations to these statues believing that their gods will grant them favours - and that is the true meaning of idolatry.

Of course if you had the Book of Wisdom in your Bible you would know exactly what was meant by idolatry, but your leader choose for you not to see the truth, because they are afraid that you will leave when you realize that you have been deceived.

Maggie

 

[Lorarose]

<Hi
I’ve seen Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary, thats worshiping.
Dave.>

You can’t be serious.
So…kneeling is equal to worship? According to who?

I’ve seen protestants kneel before their pastor…they must worship their pastor?

I’ve seen protestants and catholics kneeling while reading their bibles…they must be worshipping their bibles?

I’ve seen folks kneel before a body at a wake…they must be worshipping the dead body?

I noticed you avoided the issue of Jesus’s davidic kingship and His mother’s role as queen mother.

 

[Church_Militant]

*Hi *
I’ve seen Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary, thats worshiping.
Dave.

TRASH DAVE!
Read the graven image part of the first commandment here:
Exodus 20:1-5

“1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:”

It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as you preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolators at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe. So pack up this argument and put it in the garbage can where it rightfully belongs my friend.

BTW: You still have never answered my clear Biblical points about the Blessed Virgin’s position as “Giberah” to the Messiah. Nor have any of your other non-Catholic friends. This is VERY relevent to this thread, since it certifies Mary’s role as intercessor for the Church. Why no answers?

Pax vobiscum,

 

[john_ennis]

oudave:

Hi
This is crazy, why is it so hard to understand this? You started your post saying the very same point I have been trying to make. You said
‘‘When you pray TO a saint’’. Praying to anything other than God IS idolitry. Please stop for just a moment and think this thru.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

Praying to someone is not synonymous with worshiping them.

Peace.
John

 

[john_ennis]

HilaryJ:

I understand, and believe that we should pray for one another. .

Yes. And if you get to heaven before me, you’ll continue to pray for me, won’t you? (Please?)

 

[john_ennis]

HilaryJ:

I guess I just don’t understand how Mary can even hear your prayers since she is in heaven. .

Harder to understand than the Trinity?

 

[john_ennis]

HilaryJ:

Also if you can offer your prayers to God via Jesus directly why pray to someone who is dead.
.

And if you can go directly to Him, why go out of the way to ask anyone here on earth to pray for you?

 

[john_ennis]

HilaryJ:

I I still don’t understand why we need to pray that those already in heaven would pray for us. If they are truly saints and know what is going on on Earth, wouldn’t they do this anyway.

If He is truly God, won’t he “deliver me from evil” without my asking?

Peace.
John

 

[john_ennis]

HilaryJ:

I I still don’t understand why we need to pray that those already in heaven would pray for us. If they are truly saints and know what is going on on Earth, wouldn’t they do this anyway.

If He is truly God, won’t he “deliver me from evil” without my asking?
Yet Jesus instructs me to pray that He will.

The Catechism says, “Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners…Since Abraham, intercession has been characteristic of a heart attuned to God’s mercy. In the age of the Church, Christian intercession participates in Christ’s, as an expression of the communion of saints.” [paragraphs 2634,2635]

Peace.
John

 

[JP2Admirer]

Often when the intercession of saints comes up, you will run into the question of “how can they hear us?” It’s a legitimate question that deserves consideration.

Number one, if God wills that the saints can hear us, it shall be done. We don’t need to question Him.

However, CS Lewis answers this question in a way (and I cannot recall which book) when talking about God. Lewis was an atheist for much of his life, and one of the difficulties he had was with how God could hear our prayers. The sheer numbers of them are mind boggling.

For instance, if every American were to offer a prayer today, that would be 380 million prayers that God would have to hear. That’s an astronomical number of prayers for one 24 hour period, but God receives many more than this per hour. How on earth could He hear them? How on earth could a mere person, such as Mary, hear them?

It’s simple, they couldn’t hear them on EARTH, but they can in HEAVEN.

Lewis solved the problem by taking his mind out of the sphere of time. God exists outside of time and so does heaven. They exist in an ever present moment. The analogy Lewis used was that of a blank piece of paper with a line on it. God would be the paper, the line would be time.

Once you’ve wrapped your mind around this, it is easy to see that God has all eternity to answer every prayer He’s ever received.

If the saints also exist outside of time in an ever present moment, then they too can hear (if God wills it) our prayers, and they have all eternity to answer every single prayer.

To say the saints cannot hear us is to severely underestimate the power of God, and it is to think in purely human terms of time.

(For more on the philosophy of time check out Confessions Book XI. St. Augustine speculates on time at length.)

 

[jimmy]

john ennis:

Yes. And if you get to heaven before me, you’ll continue to pray for me, won’t you? (Please?)

john, stop worshipping hillaryj .

 

[oudave]

Lisa4Catholics:

Hey I have seen protestants kneel in front of a pew,So what does the pew do for you Oudave?You think if you say something enough its true we don’t worship statues or Mary,get a handle on yourself man!

*Hi *
Heres the difference, we don’t pray ‘‘Hail pew full of comfort, we pray that you ask God to make us comfortable during service’’ and you pray to the statue when you pray to the Saint. If you didnt think that there was any power in the statue you wouldnt need to kneel before it. Some say we worship to the Bible, we believe there is power in the word of God but not in the book itself, so we dont kneel before the book.
*In Him and Only Him, Dave. *

 

[mercygate]

*Hi *
Heres the difference, we don’t pray ‘‘Hail pew full of comfort, we pray that you ask God to make us comfortable during service’’ and you pray to the statue when you pray to the Saint. If you didnt think that there was any power in the statue you wouldnt need to kneel before it. Some say we worship to the Bible, we believe there is power in the word of God but not in the book itself, so we dont kneel before the book.
*In Him and Only Him, Dave. *

Dave, Dave, Dave. You’re pretty smart. How hard is this to understand?

Here’s a quote from Katholikos posted some months ago:

I confess that one of my favorite things about becoming a Catholic is that now I can freely worship idols. I no longer have to sneak around and worship a hunk of painted plaster but I can do it openly. It means a lot to me to be able to worship the God who created the universe in some, uh, *concrete *way. I spend hours on my knees worshipping my idols – lighting candles and burning incense. I’m never so happy as when I can pray to my plaster God and His plaster saints!

There’s a statue of Jesus in my bedroom with my prie-dieu (kneeling bench) in front of it, and I can kneel there and worship that plaster and paint to my heart’s content. Come on y’all, 'fess up, admit it. I’ve seen you kneeling in front of statues. The rest of you Catholics love plaster and paint just as much as I do.

Bye now. I’ve gotta get off the computer and back to my idols. A person can never have too many idols or worship them too much.

(Thanks to former Evangelical Mark Shea, author of By What Authority, for the idea for this spoof. His wunnerful webblog inspired me.)

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And what is the difference between the “power in the book” that you speak of, and the “power in the virgin Mary” that we speak of?

The power in the book comes only from God.
The power in the virgin comes only from God.

Praying is not worshipping. I pray you, oudave, to consider that. Am I worshipping you? God forbid, no, I am not.

Catholics do not ascribe any divine power to Mary. We do not say, “Mary, forgive us our sins”. We ask only that Mary pray to God for us. Now, since both you and I can pray to God, how is asking Mary to pray to God for us giving her any divine power? How is it taking away from God? In truth, it is adding glory to God, by adding another voice of prayer, praise, petition, thanksgiving and love, in Mary’s voice as well as ours.

 

[jimmy]

*Hi *
Heres the difference, we don’t pray ‘‘Hail pew full of comfort, we pray that you ask God to make us comfortable during service’’ and you pray to the statue when you pray to the Saint. If you didnt think that there was any power in the statue you wouldnt need to kneel before it. Some say we worship to the Bible, we believe there is power in the word of God but not in the book itself, so we dont kneel before the book.
*In Him and Only Him, Dave. *

No one prays to the statue. It is only a likeness of the person. Noone needs to kneel before it. I pray to Mary every day(I know I am an idolater ) but I do not have any statues of her.

I find it amazing that you call the angel Gabriel blasphemous. The Hail Mary is completely scriptural.

Scott_Lafrance:

Let’s look at the Hail Mary to see just how unScriptural it really is.

“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28)
“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” (Luke 1:42)
Holy Mary, mother of God (Luke 1:43) pray for us sinner, now and at the hour of our death. (A simple intercessory pray encouraged by St. Paul 1 Cor 14:13, 2 Cor 9:14, 2 Cor 13:9, Eph 6:18, Col 1:3, Col 1:9, Col 4:3, 1 Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1. There are more, but I think these are sufficient to prove my point.)

So, this demonic “prayer” we say to Mary is a totally scriptural request to Jesus’ mother to pray for us. Since the host at the wedding of Cana thought it appropriate to ask Mary to intercede, why isn’t it okay for us?

 

[joehar]

jimmy:

No one prays to the statue. It is only a likeness of the person. Noone needs to kneel before it. I pray to Mary every day(I know I am an idolater ) but I do not have any statues of her.

I find it amazing that you call the angel Gabriel blasphemous. The Hail Mary is completely scriptural.

No it isn’t when you are praying directly to Mary. There is only one intercessor - between God and man - the man Christ Jesus. She was his mother on earth. Christ came before the earth he has no begining or end . The alpha and omega. God Almighty.

When you pray start with

Our Father not hail Mary full of grace…

 

[jimmy]

joehar:

No it isn’t when you are praying directly to Mary. There is only one intercessor - between God and man - the man Christ Jesus. She was his mother on earth. Christ came before the earth he has no begining or end . The alpha and omega. God Almighty.

When you pray start with

Our Father not hail Mary full of grace…

You are mostly right with what you say. When it says that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, it is refering to the fact that Jesus died on the cross for us, reconciling us with the Father. That is what it refers to. It does not refer to prayers to saints.

Like I said, the Hail Mary is completely scriptural. Read the quote in my last post from Scott_Lefrance. The whole prayer is direct quotes from the bible. They were addresses that were used for her by an angel, a lady who was filled with the spirit of God, and another lady.

The last line is, “holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen”. This is common to see at the end of a prayer the statement pray for us. Just like you ask your wife or mother or brother or sister to pray for you, we ask Mary to pray for us. Since they are cleared from all temptation of sin, they are closer to God and there prayers are more meaningful than ours since they are completely focused on God rather than self.

 

[jimmy]

joehar:

No it isn’t when you are praying directly to Mary. There is only one intercessor - between God and man - the man Christ Jesus. She was his mother on earth. Christ came before the earth he has no begining or end . The alpha and omega. God Almighty.

When you pray start with

Our Father not hail Mary full of grace…

Amazingly, the Our Father is my first prayer everytime I pray, not the Hail Mary. Hail Marys come after Our Fathers.