B
BIC
Guest
HIYAHi BIC!
How do you feel Mary is elevated beyond what God would desire?
In Christ,
Nancy
Actually I left out “It feels like the catholic chruch elevates Mary”
BIC
LAUS DEO
- Status
Actually I left out “It feels like the catholic chruch elevates Mary”
BIC
LAUS DEO
T
Tmaque
Guest
Pray, beseech, implore, ask…why wouldn’t want someone in God’s presence to do these things on your behalf? You ask people on earth to do this for you…why not those in heaven?
M
MaggieOH
Guest
I will ask a question in return here. What does the Book of Revelation reveal about the actions of the saints in heaven?
Please refer to Rev 14:1-5 for a possible answer.
Also refer to John 8:50-51
This is only a start in seeking out the verses that tell us that Scripture has always revealed the reward that awaits those who live in justice and righteousness.
Maggie
M
MaggieOH
Guest
Please read Rev 14: 1-5
M
MaggieOH
Guest
This comment is off-topic and irrelevant since it is based upon a twisted understanding of Catholic doctrines.
M
MaggieOH
Guest
Are you forgetting that sometimes when we pray we do not get the answer that we want. That is why we tend to storm heaven and ask all who are in eternal life to ask God on our behalf for a favour.
You do understand the mechanics of presenting a petition to the Parliament? Well if you think of the Kingdom of Heaven as being like the Parliament with God at its head (that is Jesus as King of kings) what kind of images are conjured up? To me it represents the King who is sitting on the throne, and the courtier (the saints) comes forward to present a request that someone wants to see granted. Even if the King knows all of our thoughts and needs, He might not be inclined to give into our desires, but on the strength of the petition of one who is so highly favoured by Him, then He is more inclined to grant the request.
Maggie
A
Axion
Guest
Yes. Look at this passage…
1 Corinthians:12.12 For just as the body is one and has many members, **and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body…
20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
24 … But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honoured, all rejoice together. **27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
You see, All Christians wherever they may be, form one undivided body in Christ. **All ** members of that body, rejoice or suffer together.
The passage does not say that this communion of Saints ends when some pass into heaven. Or that when one comes into the presence of God one ceases to be part of the body of Christ. Quite the contrary:
Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: …and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
The elders, (heavenly Saints), are mediating the prayers of the earthly saints.
Because they wish to help the work of God. We also know that:
James 5: 16-18 " …The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."
Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better. Since we do not have an Elijah on every street, God has given us recourse to the Saints in heaven, who being righteous are powerful in their intercession.
B
BIC
Guest
Greetings L4CThe first statement strikes me as strange because of the insistance of some that ask us are we assured to go to heavenYou are assuming that physical death seperates us from Jesus which contradicts scripture,only spiritual death can do that.Humility is exalted by God read the magnificant.God exalts humans should respect who God chooses to exalt.
The point I was trying to make is After the physical death I do believe we are then in the presence of GOD spiritually. But Like the saints at the alter asking if its time and GOD says a little longer. Does this means that the reward of heaven (a close intimate relationship with Jesus is the reward that is awaiting? So with that we the saints are all equal in Heaven under of course of Father.
Without a doubt!!!
BIC
LAUS DEO
B
BIC
Guest
Do you have any scripture for this? Someone in heaven petitioning for prayers unanswered? I know of instances like Lot petitioning for those righteous people in Sodom.
If I had to imagine heaven it would be a one on one relationship with GOD. My question to you is; If we are obediant to GOD’s will and without question lean on him to provide our needs. Would that be enough?
BIC
LAUS DEO
B
BIC
Guest
Maggie
I am not attacking. Just have a desire to seek the truth.
What is catholic doctrice on intercessors and who, what is the criteria for someone to be held in that esteem. for example my grandfather was a pastor and could he be a interessor? It seems that Mary is held above (as an intercessor), or is she.
BIC
LAUS DEO
B
BIC
Guest
HIYA
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed F22 from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Hi maggie
Right so where is does it say that A saint is more important than the other? They are continually praising GOD. That what I was driving at.
BIC
LAUS DEO
B
BIC
Guest
Hi LSK
Do you believe that GOD is gender biased and doesnt understand our needs?
BIC
LAUS DEO
C
Church_Militant
Guest
This is actually pretty far off topic for this thread. Let me suggest that you post this as a separate thread and we can get into this deeply there and not hijack this one, Okay? I have good answers for ya but not at the expense of this thread.
M
MaggieOH
Guest
Lot petitioned for the righteous people in Sodom? :nope:
It was Abraham who petitioned on behalf of the people of Sodom. Lot lived there and had to get out in a hurry.
Also Moses petitioned God on behalf of the people who had worshipped the Golden Calf
These are instances of men bound on earth petitioning to God. However, when it comes to prayer not been granted you have the case of the rich man who did not help the beggar Lazarus. He was making a request to warn his brothers what was waiting if they did not change their ways, but his petition was denied.
As for storming heaven, well I would suggest that 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 is an example of how that works. In that particular case the storming of heaven consisted of :
- the men blessing the ways of the Lord (2 Macc 12:41)
- the men gave themselves to prayer **begging **that the sin committed might be fully blotted out (2Macc 12:42)
- the taking of a collection to have a sin offering made at the Temple in Jerusalem - offering the atonement sacrifice for the dead so that they might be released from their sin (2 Macc 12:46)
Maggie
M
mercygate
Guest
Don’t forget Elijah. You can also read the martyrdom of Stephen to include his being received into heaven in answer to his prayer.
God has given us his own very clear standards of holiness in the Commandments, the Beatitudes and the life of our Lord, therefore the Church is able, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to understand with complete assurance that certain holy people are indeed with God in Heaven. John and Mary being two of them.
I didn’t mean to be flippant. But when Jesus said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John, I do not take that to mean that John (or Mary) does not, upon entering the Kingdom of Heaven become “greater” than he is in his earthly life. It is also useful to compare Jesus’ surprising use of the phrase “least in the kingdom of heaven” in Mt. 5:19,
Both Mary and John are among those who keep the commandments. Why would we not believe that they are “in the kingdom of heaven.”
M
mercygate
Guest
The process of canonization eliminates this problem because it is so stringent. The early devotion that grew up around some of these saints did so before the process was codified and when there was less stringency surrounding the whole idea. If you were thought to be “good” you were honored as a “saint.” There was also confusion between the use of the word “holy” and the word “saint” as we understand it when applied to someone whom we know is in heaven. In both Greek [hagios] and Latin [sanctus] both meanings are expressed by a single word. It was easy for people to cultivate a devotion to “holy grace” or “holy patience” and, where authority was loose, for it to become “Saint Grace.”
M
mercygate
Guest
Great choice of words! “Canon” means “measuring stick”!
Of course we know the measure God will use, because he has made it abundantly clear to us (Commandments, Beatitudes, life of Jesus . . .). Canonization of saints comes under the teaching authority of the Church – what we call the Magisterium. The Church received this authority from Christ himself under the power of the keys and in the Great Commission: “Go and teach all nations . . .” The lives of the saints are chapters in our textbook of Christian life.
The Church does not “elevate” them; God has already done that. The Church recognizes that fact. Canonization permits a holy person to be venerated publicly. Your great grandmother could very well be a ‘saint’ (anybody in heaven is a saint, not just those canonized), but she cannot be publicly venerated as a saint by Catholics.
S
Shiann
Guest
It was actually on this forum when I was first introduced to the fact that ancient Jewish Queens, were not, in fact, wives of the King. They were the King’s mother- who would act as a bridge between the people and their ruler. The people ‘prayed’ (asked fervently) that the Queen would ‘intercede’ with the King on their personal behalf. Once I understood this, it made the miracle at the Wedding Feast so wonderfully important. The VERY FIRST miracle our Lord performed on earth was at the beseeching of the “Queen”.
I guess this alone, offers my heart and mind proof enough that this is the relationship that God intended us to have with the Queen of Heaven.
In regards to those in heaven, I’m still not sure I understand why it is hard to understand why Catholics remain in contact with our spiritual family. We can pray FOR those who have gone before us… why not pray WITH them too? Upon our earthly death, we are somehow removed from our communications with our spiritual family?
I guess this alone, offers my heart and mind proof enough that this is the relationship that God intended us to have with the Queen of Heaven.
In regards to those in heaven, I’m still not sure I understand why it is hard to understand why Catholics remain in contact with our spiritual family. We can pray FOR those who have gone before us… why not pray WITH them too? Upon our earthly death, we are somehow removed from our communications with our spiritual family?
H
HilaryJ
Guest
Thanks for all of the information. I think that I have a better understanding of the concept.
F
FCEGM
Guest
Hi, Bic
Yes, we are - according to the degree our lives have been conformed to Christ. Those saints and Saints in Heaven are fully conformed (while we struggle to be receptive to His grace) by the obedience of Faith and are as much of Christ’s nurturing Body as we - even more so precisely because they no longer are able to sin and no vestige of sin “clings” to them.
I think part of the difficulty in appreciating the role of the Saints in the Churh is that some people are uncomfortable with an understanding of anyone, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Divine Savior and hence Mother of God, being at an advantage – by God’s predilection – in the Trinitarian life. This discomfiture appears when there is a diminished understanding of what the grace flowing from Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit accomplishes in the faithful soul as he or she progresses (hopefully) in this Christ-life; they do not understand that we are being divinized (“do you not know you have become partakers of the divine nature?”), but, instead, see grace as something that covers rather than transforms our human nature. A Catholic, on the other hand, knows that Mary’s participation in the life of the Trinity (a life to which we are all called) is of a higher “status” or “role” than ours or any of the Saints in heaven, canonized or not. The Catholic says, “Yes, this is what we have by grace and since these is what we have the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary – by grace – has it in spades!”
Intercession while living on earth depends on being IN Christ, in a state of grace which sanctifies the soul, thus allowing the person to ask God for something for someone else. But in Heaven the person has the Beatific Vision of God and is united to Him “face to face” and “knows as he is known” and in a greater position to ask for someone else (since he does not need anything for himself). Therefore, to ask in Christ on of the Blessed to intercede for us is simply communicated to that someone by Christ since there is no other way that person could know what is going on down here except by being shown by Christ.
So in the Beatific Vision Christ, within Whom the Blessed are more, not less, in union, shows the Blessed the petitions of the brethren on earth, as in God all things are seen since God is all in all. This is not difficult for God to do. This is also a manifestation of the significance of each individual person – his or her significance as a member of the Body of Christ does not diminish because he or she has entered into Glory. Thus we can know with absolute certainty that the Saints know the petitions addressed to them in Christ – and the witness from the experience of this undying Communion is attested to throughout the centuries of the Church with the benefactions of the Saints being too numerous to mention. A fortiori the Blessed Mother, who is Mother of the WHOLE Christ, the Head, and spiritually of the Body of the Faithful.
Of course there is an infinite distance between the humanity of Mary and the divinity of Christ. Mary’s nature is human, though elevated to participation in the Divine nature, while Christ’s nature is both Divine and human. But there is no distance between the Hearts of the Son and Mother – between the New Covenant and she who is the Ark of the New Covenant (cf. 2 Sam 6:1-11 & Luke 1:39-56.
“The Church knows and teaches that ‘all the saving influence of the Blessed Virgin originates. . .from the divine pleasure. They flow forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rest on his mediation, depend entirely on it, and draw all their power from it. In no way do they impede the immediate union of the faithful with Christ. Rather they foster this union.’ This saving influence is sustained by the Holy Spirit, who, just as her overshadowed the Virgin Mary when he began in her the divine motherhood, in a similar way constantly sustains her solicitude for the brothers and sisters of her Son.
continued. . .
- Status