Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[Cathoholic]

Notice next that this is a GRACE. This salvific influence of the Blessed Mother upon men eminates from Christ. It is JESUS’ WILL that this association occurrs. This was Christ’s WILL (“the divine pleasure”).

And there is no false competition. In no way does this impede upon union with Jesus or Christ’s mediation but rather serves to FOSTER it. The Blessed Virgin’s role flows from the GRACE of Her Son.

For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ. – Vatican II Lumen Gentium Section 60

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A definitive definition would recognize that work of Jesus, and fulfill that desire of Jesus (assuming this definition is His desire) to recognize that acheivement of Jesus.

It also emphasizes the REAL HUMANITY of Jesus along with His REAL DIVINITY (True God AND True Man) by reminding us “He became Incarnate of the Virgin Mary”.

Then He used that “incarnate” nature upon Calvary to Redeem the world.

The Blessed Mother could never accomplish this on Her own. Yet Jesus giving Himself superabundantly, gives of Himself even in this way by associating Himself to His Mother primarily, and in a secondary sense, even to us.

This is not that difficult of a teaching. Yet it is a Mystery. It is ABOVE REASON so we will never be able to figure out all the specifics in this life.

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CCC 618b In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering . 457

 

[BenP]

Mary assisted in redemption by consenting to be the source of Gods enfleshment. In that sense she saved (redeemed) us, by her fiat.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

So the decision to declare dogmas are guided by the Holy Spirit and cannot be questioned.
The decision to reject dogmas are not guided by the Holy Spirit and can be questioned.
Thanks

 

[pnewton]

The truth does not depend upon its acceptability to human beings. The truth is the truth. We are to seek it, not decide upon its acceptability to us, based upon our own predilections.

The issue here is not truth, but formulation, or the communication, of what is true. Who Mary is can be taught without resort to titles. In fact, i would say that if a title is confusing, then it is not teaching, or even good communication. Good communication depends not only on the speaker, but the listener.

 

[EndTimes]

Would you at least say regarding the Motherhood of Mary, that She became "an associate who "cooperated in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls ?

Blessed Mary assisted at the very moment she accepted the Message from God –
to be the Redeemer’s mother…

As with Abraham - she’s an icon of Faith / Obedience…

Our Lord was conceived when God’s Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary…
(Note the Trinity)

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The angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women… Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God… Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?.. And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord;
be it done to me according to thy word

And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda.
And she entered into the house of Zachary, and saluted Elizabeth.

And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary,
the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?.. For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy… And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid;
for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . .

As with Abraham - she’s an icon of Faith / Obedience…

First of all the Church does not teach the Blessed Mother’s role is “As with Abraham”.

I agree there ARE some things in common.

Secondly, the Church teaches Jesus ASSOCIATES His Redeeming sacrifice with His Mother more intimately than any other person.

I affirm this.

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CCC 618b In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering. 457

(I believe the CCC here and everywhere.)

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Do you even affirm this Catholic teaching?

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And since you are the one who brought up Redemptoris Mater, do you affirm that the Blessed Mother by grace became an ASSOCIATE in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls?

This motherhood in the order of grace flows from her divine motherhood. Because she was, by the design of divine Providence, the mother who nourished the divine Redeemer, Mary became "an associate . . . who “cooperated . . . in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls .” . . . St. Pope John Paul II the Great Redemptoris Mater

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Or that saving influences from Her even exist? Saving influences that come from the Blessed Virgin Mary that originate from Christ’s GRACE (“the Divine pleasure”)?

The Church knows and teaches
that "all the saving influences of the Blessed Virgin on mankind
originate…from the divine pleasure. . . . St. Pope John Paul II the Great Redemptoris Mater

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Or that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the "generous companion” of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the work of REDEMPTION?

. . . by virtue of divine election Mary is the earthly Mother of the Father’s consubstantial Son and his “generous companion” in the work of redemption" she is a mother to us in the order of grace." . . .St. Pope John Paul II the Great Redemptoris Mater

(I believe this all these things.)

 

[annad347]

Until you stop seeing competition between Our Lord and His Blessed another, you will not be able to progress in your understanding of Mariology.

But I don’t have to… she’s not my savior.

You are right though, there is no competition. Have to admit I never heard that one before… but why would I think there is a competition in any way, besides if there was one Jesus would easily win.

 

[twf]

Because you seem concerned with people choosing Mary over Christ. It’s a false dilemma. There’s no competition.

 

[annad347]

Because you seem concerned with people choosing Mary over Christ. It’s a false dilemma. There’s no competition.

It is a concern I have but nothing I can do about except pray and leave it in God’s hands. False dilemma? not sure what that means. Competition? not even sure where that came from, but definitely there is none.

 

[twf]

If you’re concerned, that suggests that part of you thinks there is competition. As in, Our Lady is competing with Our Lord for attention. That can never be the case. Mary only points to Jesus.
In the Ave, we repeat the words of St Elizabeth from the Gospel of Luke: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!
Like Elizabeth, we bless Mary first so that we may, through her, bless her divine Son more perfectly. She leads to him. Always. Completely.

 

[annad347]

If you’re concerned, that suggests that part of you thinks there is competition.

nope, never thought that… in fact what I think has nothing to do with Mary exactly, but how others treat her. Like her leading people to her Son is more then what she intended for it to be, us praying, loving and doing the will of her Son… but that’s just me.

 

[EndTimes]

Until you stop seeing competition between Our Lord and His Blessed another,
you will not be able to progress in your understanding of Mariology.

OK…

And, did our perfect Exemplars of Christian Behavior
Jesus and His Apostles and the Evangelists and Disciples…
who Knew Mary directly… involve in “Mariology”
as if some sort of requisite for FAITH / Accepting Jesus’ GOSPEL of Salvation?

 

[twf]

Are you Catholic? It seems there are a lot of Protestant attitudes towards the Blessed Mother on this thread…and Sola Scriptura approaches to Mariology. If you’re not Catholic that’s fine…just need to know where to start.

 

[EndTimes]

Are you Catholic? It seems there are a lot of Protestant attitudes towards the Blessed Mother on this thread…and Sola Scriptura approaches to Mariology. If you’re not Catholic that’s fine…just need to know where to start.

Are you?

You’ve seemingly ignored the meat of my post…

Know ye not that the Catholic Church has warned against excessive Marian ‘devotion’

• to the point of Admonishing some movements which have done exactly that?

Note too: No … I’m not Sola Scriptura

As the Church accepts and presents from Saint Jerome:

"Ignorance of Scriptures is Ignorance of Christ!"

 

[twf]

What excesses are you referring to? What about my post did you find excessive or contrary to the Magisterium?

 

[patricius79]

I’m amazed at how people in the Church are so concerned with excesses regarding Mary in these times.

Of course, there can’t be excess of true devotion to Mary, who always leads us to Jesus Christ. There can be false devotion to Mary, where we are not truly devoted to her.

There is obviously a very unjust deficiency of filial love for Mary today in the Church.

There is this idea that it’s okay to mostly ignore our spiritual mother, the Mother of God.

 

[Gorgias]

HarryStotle:

Only dogma declared ex cathedra is infallibly determined.

And so a proposed dogma that is rejected is also guided by the Holy Spirit, right?

I’m not certain that I would draw that conclusion. At the very least, in terms of propositional logic, it’s not true that P → Q implies that ~P → ~Q.

I would merely say that a proposed dogma that is rejected is merely a sign that the Spirit didn’t guide a process of accepting the dogma, without making a positive assertion that the Spirit nixed it, per se.

 

[JimG]

In Defense of Marian Maximalism

 

[HarryStotle]

Yes as I understand a Catholic can choose to go to Mary for many things including co-redemptrix and many do. There are also many that don’t. What needs further defining? Making it dogma will only force people to try and believe something that they really don’t.

The standard for making dogma is not whether or not people will believe it. The standard is whether it is true.

Many do not believe the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. That they don’t, however, is irrelevant to whether it is the truth. No one is “forced” to believe what is true, but the fact that something is determined to be true by revelation, evidence or reason ought to sway those reticent to accept the truth.

In fact, there are many current teachings of the Church where numbers of people (even Catholics) really don’t believe what is taught — on abortion, on contraception, on the divinity of Christ, on the place revelation, on the Resurrection, on the sacraments, etc., etc.

Truth isn’t determined by how many are willing to accept it, nor should statements of truth be compromised to make them acceptable to human beings. Human beings should conform their thinking to the truth, not vice versa.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

The truth does not depend upon its acceptability to human beings. The truth is the truth. We are to seek it, not decide upon its acceptability to us, based upon our own predilections.

The issue here is not truth, but formulation, or the communication, of what is true. Who Mary is can be taught without resort to titles. In fact, i would say that if a title is confusing, then it is not teaching, or even good communication. Good communication depends not only on the speaker, but the listener.

There are many titles currently in use that are likewise confusing to many.

For Jesus: Son of God, the Son of Man, Bread of life, Firstborn of all creation, Word of God, Lamb of God, Bridegroom, Living Bread, Dayspring, Grain of Wheat, Hidden Manna, High Priest, Last Adam, Light of the World.

For Mary: Ark of the Covenant, Gate of Heaven, Morning Star, Our Lady of Life, Our Lady of Light, Tabernacle of the Lord, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity, Treasure House of God’s Graces, Queen of Angels, Seat of Wisdom, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, the New Eve.

Perhaps being confused is a call to humility and there is nothing wrong with it. We shouldn’t expect to think we understand the things and actions of God with clarity all of the time.