Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

The truth does not depend upon its acceptability to human beings. The truth is the truth. We are to seek it, not decide upon its acceptability to us, based upon our own predilections.

The issue here is not truth, but formulation, or the communication, of what is true. Who Mary is can be taught without resort to titles. In fact, i would say that if a title is confusing, then it is not teaching, or even good communication. Good communication depends not only on the speaker, but the listener.

What do you make of Pope Francis’ comment, quoted in the article cited in the OP, …

"…Mary becoming ‘mestiza’ to be the mother of everyone. 'She became mestiza with humanity. Because she made God ‘mestizo’ . And this is the great mystery: Mary makes God a ‘mestizo’ , true God but also true man.”

Wouldn’t it be more confusing, regarding Christology, to call God “mestizo” given that Christ is “fully human” and “fully divine,” and NOT part human and part divine, or in some sense a ‘mix’ of human and divine (Monotheletism?), as the word mestizo implies.

Perhaps, Pope Francis is correct that his is not the proper pontificate to resolve the question of Mary as Co-Redemptrix since his theology concerning the Incarnation appears to be incongruous with Church teaching.

Or perhaps you could clarify the titles ‘mestizo’ and ‘mestiza’ that Pope Francis has idiosyncratically used as TITLES for BOTH God and Mary? Isn’t this depiction and use of titles by Pope Francis, himself, even more confusing than Co-Redemptrix, since it now confuses believers about BOTH God and Mary?

 

[EndTimes]

What excesses are you referring to? What about my post did you find excessive or contrary to the Magisterium?

I wasn’t referring to you or your post.

I’m amazed at how people in the Church are so concerned with excesses regarding Mary in these times.

I’m not referring to Mary…

I am referring to any Catholics
whom The Catholic Church would be referring to in its warnings and admonitions re: eg, “Mariology”

Vat II - Lumen Gentium

IV. The Cult of the Blessed Virgin in the Church

1. [The Church] exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.

Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety.

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.

Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

 

[C.Longinus]

Are we even gonna accomplish that with language that is confusing EVEN in the eyes of Christ’s Vicar, Satis. And yes, there have been excesses involving Mary. The Colydrians and the Nestorians are two groups that did this.

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes to patricius79 . . . .

Vat II - Lumen Gentium

IV. The Cult of the Blessed Virgin in the Church

1. [The Church] exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.

Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety.

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.

The problem with this theory of yours misusing Vatican II against the Blessed Virgin Mary as Coredemptrix is you have the built-in presupposition that teaching this is a . . .

“gross exaggeration”
and an “error”.

Do you think when the Popes have discussed Mary EXPLICITLY as Coredemptrix that the Popes were teaching “error”.

Do you think CCC 618 is true (I have asked you several times if you have affirmed it. And so far I have not seen an answer from you.)?

Or do you think CCC 618 us a “gross exaggeration” or Heaven forbid . . . “an error”?

Here is the salient excerpt from CCC 618 again.

CCC 618b In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering . 457

.

VATICAN II [The Church] exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations . . . considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God. . . .
. . . assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.

.

NOT VATICAN II [The Church] exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously from all truths . . . considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God. You can give SOME of them like the Immaculate Conception and the Glorious Assumption. That would be OK. But no more. . . .

. . . assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into clarifying, refining, and defining a truth that could help them
regarding getting correct the true doctrine of the Church concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary.
So don’t even think about defining anymore truths in this sphere. And nothing else should be taught about Jesus being true God and True man also
because we don’t want to tick-off the atheists either.

 

[Cathoholic]

Jesus desires to associate Christians with his redeeming sacrifice. Especially and preeminantly, His Blessed Mother.

Here is the salient excerpt from CCC 618 again.

CCC 618b In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering . 457

And here is ALL of CCC 618 to preempt some sort of charge that the except is “out of context” as the excerpt is clearly in context.

CCC 618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”.452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”,454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering .457

Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458

.

Jesus desires to associate Christians with his redeeming sacrifice. (Especially and preeminantly, His Blessed Mother.)

ROMANS 6:3 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized
into Christ Jesus were baptized
into his death?

GALATIANS 2:20a 20 I have been crucified with Christ . . .

 

[EndTimes]

The problem with this theory of yours misusing Vatican II against the Blessed Virgin Mary

The problems with your opinion is that it’s not a theory against Mary.

It’s Teachings of The Catholic Church re: Excessess of some individuals
who are into Marian devotions…

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . .

Excessess of some individuals
who are into Marian devotions…

This is the fallacy of equivocation EndTimes.

Nobody here is favoring “Excessess of some individuals” no matter WHAT those excesses are.

What the thread concerns is just what the Popes have taught.

That the Blessed Virgin Mary is at least in some sense, Coredemptrix.
And until we have it defined, people will be arguing about what it means.

And the people who think it should be defined at least someday, will keep putting up Scripture and Oral Tradition, Catechetical and Conciliar teachings, Saint quotes, explaining what at least THEY THINK the definition is (because for now, until the people have a formal definition, it’s the best they can do) etc.

And the people who oppose it will keep putting up their opinions or non-sequiturs.

(Which is part of the reason it would be reasonable in some people’s minds, to just DEFINE it.)

And that as the Prophet Simeon said, “a sword will pierce” the Blessed Mothers “own soul too. So that the secret hearts of many, may be laid bare.”

And as St. Paul even claimed for HIMSELF! That he was CRUCIFIED WITH Christ.

Some people here evidently don’t or can’t believe these Mysterious Truths.

I do.

 

[EndTimes]

This is the fallacy of equivocation EndTimes.

No.

 

[Cathoholic]

And unless you give some evidence, this is the fallacy of ipse dixit.

That means . . .

"It’s so! Because I say it’s so!"

 

[EndTimes]

And unless you give some evidence, this is the fallacy of ipse dixit.

That means . . .

"It’s so! Because I say it’s so!"

No.

Anything else?

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes vrs the Popes who have matter-of-factly discussed the Blessed Mother as Coredemptrix using that very title in some cases!

EndTimes vrs the Popes

It’s Teachings of The Catholic Church re: Excessess of some individuals
who are into Marian devotions…

EndTimes. Implicitly accusing the Popes of being wrong, and him, EndTimes being right.

And the implicit teachings too. Like the many I quoted in Redemptoris Mater that EndTimes himself cited, but (so far) refused to affirm after I wrote them out exactly.

EndTimes. You have not even affirmed St. Paul is “crucified with Christ” directly and right out of Galatians 2! At least so far.

Do you think that represents “Excessess” of St. Paul too?
Do you think that represents “Excessess” of the Holy Spirit who inspired St. Paul too?

 

[patricius79]

I’m not sure that Mary’s role in our salvation should be defined using the term “Co-Redemptrix”, since it seems that many don’t understand it’s orthodox meaning.

But I agree with Vatican II that there was a singular union of Mary with Jesus in the work of our salvation, and that by her intercession, she continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.

I also agree with the Church’s doctrine that Jesus gives all graces through our Blessed Mother. Unfortunately, it seems that many Catholics don’t know this doctrine or fail to assent to it.

Did the Colyridians or Nestorians having an excess of true devotion to Mary? And who are their analogues in our time?

What I perceive in the Church today is a scarcity of filial love and prayer toward our Blessed Mother, who was singularly united to Christ in His work of restoring supernatural life to our souls.

This is why there is so much infidelity to Jesus Christ.

I think we all can do better in living up to the beautiful words of Vatican II regarding our Mother in the order of grace.

Vatican II wrote:

"The entire body of the faithful pours forth instant supplications to the Mother of God and Mother of men that she, who aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers, may now, exalted as she is above all the angels and saints, intercede before her Son in the fellowship of all the saints, until all families of people, whether they are honored with the title of Christian or whether they still do not know the Saviour, may be happily gathered together in peace and harmony into one people of God, for the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[patricius79]

I don’t know if this has been pointed out above, but I noticed this paragraph in the OP article:

The pope also quoted St. Bernard who said that no praise is enough to talk about Mary, but that in the end, nothing is as representative of her “humble discipleship” more than “being faithful to her master, who is her son, the only redeemer.”
https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/12/pope-calls-idea-of-declaring-mary-co-redemptrix-foolishness/

 

[C.Longinus]

What I perceive in the Church today is a scarcity of filial love and prayer toward our Blessed Mother, who was singularly united to Christ in His work of restoring supernatural life to our souls.

It’s a lack of love for Jesus that’s the problem, which is why there is so much scandal. If we truly loved God above all,there would be no problem.

 

[EndTimes]

It’s a lack of love for Jesus that’s the problem, which is why there is so much scandal. If we truly loved God above all,there would be no problem.

It’s Cause are those who are following temptations from Satan

• promulgated by false shepherds who peddle false theology
• accepting anything and everything EXCEPT Scriptures, Tradition and Magisterium!

AKA . An Apostacy against Jesus…

 

[patricius79]

Yes, and the Church teaches that devotion to Mary, our Mother in the order of grace, leads us to worship Christ better.

For example, here is Vatican II:

"66. Placed by the grace of God, as God’s Mother, next to her Son, and exalted above all angels and men, Mary intervened in the mysteries of Christ and is justly honored by a special cult in the Church. Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.(21*) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: “All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me”.(301) This cult, as it always existed, although it is altogether singular, differs essentially from the cult of adoration which is offered to the Incarnate Word, as well to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and it is most favorable to it. The various forms of piety toward the Mother of God, which the Church within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine, according to the conditions of time and place, and the nature and ingenuity of the faithful has approved, bring it about that while the Mother is honored, the Son, through whom all things have their being (302) and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell,(303) is rightly known, loved and glorified and that all His commands are observed.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[EndTimes]

Yes, and the Church teaches that devotion to Mary, our Mother in the order of grace, leads us to worship Christ better.

And… Once one finds Jesus - one sticks very very closely with Him

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps being confused is a call to humility and there is nothing wrong with it. We shouldn’t expect to think we understand the things and actions of God with clarity all of the time.

Agreed, which is why making no change makes sense.

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps, Pope Francis is correct that his is not the proper pontificate to resolve the question of Mary as Co-Redemptrix since his theology concerning the Incarnation appears to be incongruous with Church teaching.

You just mentioned humility in your previous post, did you not? And now you appear to be judging the Pope’s orthodoxy. Perhaps we are both wrong. Yet, I find not confusion here. Mary has appeared as many races. Pope Francis used the word mestizo, not as a title, but a description, which need not be exact. By the same token, I am not confused by St. Patrick’s use of the shamrock to describe the Holy Trinity. It is one thing to say that Jesus is fully God and fully Man, as a doctrine. It is more difficult to bring this into some understanding that makes practical sense in common speech.

 

[annad347]

Since I was quoted this is what I originally posted

---

So once you found Jesus, who is the Only One who can give you mercy or grace then why do you need to continue to go to Mary to find Him?

But I then edited to say;
Never mind I need to stay off this thread.

So I’ll just end with God Bless to everyone.