Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[twf]

So once you found Jesus, who is the Only One who can give you mercy or grace then why do you need to continue to go to Mary to find Him?

Once you’ve been baptized, why do you need to continue to interact with a priest? Once you’ve come to Christ, why do you continue to ask others to pray for you?
Christ has a relationship with His body the Church…our faith is not individualistic. It is Christ’s will that we be in communion not with Him alone, but also with each other…including our Blessed Mother. It is His will that she be part of our relationship with Him.

 

[EndTimes]

By the same token, I am not confused by St. Patrick’s use of the shamrock to describe the Holy Trinity.

IMHO - I wonder if shamrock falls a wee short
of Their Actuality as can be gleaned from, E.g., Scriptures.

Each Divine Person has individualities?
- more realized via their Relationship with one another,
as well has HOW -
Each Person is referred to differently by the authors/Scribes of the NT

a brief… From The Magisterium

CCC 254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another* . "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

 

[C.Longinus]

Yes, and the Church teaches that devotion to Mary, our Mother in the order of grace, leads us to worship Christ better.

True devotion, not the piling up of titles which do more harm than good.

 

[patricius79]

According to the Magisterium of the Church, the grace of staying close to God the Son comes through Mary, the Mother of God.

 

[stpurl]

Piling up of titles? Which do ‘nobody’ any good?

AFAIK with the exception of co-redemptrix right at the moment, the titles which Mary has ‘piled up’ were bestowed not by voice vote, popular demand, etc. but through the Church. And AFAIK every single solitary one of these titles is given Mary not because of who SHE is, but because of who her SON is.

I trust the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, not to lead us astray with ‘piled up titles’ which ‘do no one good.’

 

[EndTimes]

According to the Magisterium of the Church,
the grace of staying close to God the Son comes through Mary, the Mother of God.

Be that as it may…

Mary is the mother of the Incarnate Son of God. and not of God the Father or God’s Holy Spirit

There’s no thing or no one - who can come in-between oneself and Jesus

FAITH is what keeps one in spiritual connection with Jesus.

And Jesus is THE DOOR to God the Father.

And Jesus teaches us that we can Pray Directly to God the Father.

"Our Father … Who art in Heaven… Hallowed by The Name… "

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . . .

FAITH is what keeps one in spiritual connection with Jesus.

Yes, but what else in addition to faith?

And how are you defining faith?

 

[patricius79]

Amen. None of these truths are in dispute.

We ourselves can sin, thus wounding the relationship between ourselves and Jesus Christ.

That is why Jesus gave us Mary from the Cross.

 

[patricius79]

Would you describe how you understand Mary’s role in our salvation, and how you understand “true devotion” to her?

 

[EndTimes]

Yes, but what else in addition to faith?

…
REASON…

 

[Cathoholic]

Supernatural hope and supernatural charity are needed in addition to a supernatural faith.

.

COUNCIL OF TRENT Session VI Chapter 7 For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless

http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Perhaps, Pope Francis is correct that his is not the proper pontificate to resolve the question of Mary as Co-Redemptrix since his theology concerning the Incarnation appears to be incongruous with Church teaching.

You just mentioned humility in your previous post, did you not? And now you appear to be judging the Pope’s orthodoxy. Perhaps we are both wrong. Yet, I find not confusion here. Mary has appeared as many races. Pope Francis used the word mestizo, not as a title, but a description, which need not be exact. By the same token, I am not confused by St. Patrick’s use of the shamrock to describe the Holy Trinity. It is one thing to say that Jesus is fully God and fully Man, as a doctrine. It is more difficult to bring this into some understanding that makes practical sense in common speech.

Two points…

1. I wasn’t judging the Pope’s orthodoxy, I was merely pointing out that decrying one title for Mary because it might be confusing, while proposing another that is even more confusing as well as being theologically inaccurate regarding the Incarnation/nature of God is evidence that perhaps this is not the proper time nor pontificate to properly address the Co-Redemptrix title. Different popes have different strengths.
2. St. Patrick didn’t actually use the shamrock to describe the Trinity, since that anecdote does not appear until the 18th century. In addition, the shamrock is an incorrect depiction of the doctrine that verges on the heresy of tritheism. There is a problem with attempting to depict difficult doctrines in a way that brings understanding in a “practical sense” to common speech because such depictions open Christianity to straw man attacks from those outside the faith who will attack the inaccurate depiction as if it is the correct one.

 

[EndTimes]

Supernatural hope and supernatural charity are needed in addition to a supernatural faith .

Yes… Charity is a must…

This shall be exemplified by Jesus at Judgement

When we shall be Judged in accordance to our Obedience to God’s Command

LOVE THY NEIGHBOR … IN ACTION

…

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . .

Yes… Charity is a must…

This shall be exemplified by Jesus at Judgement

True enough EndTimes.

Christ’s charity is also infused into us at the time of our Baptism (along with supernatural faith and supernatural hope).

 

[EndTimes]

Christ’s charity is also infused into us at the time of our Baptism (along with supernatural faith and supernatural hope).

yes it is yet that alone doth not auto-make us veritable charitible beings.

we must Obey what we hear and read…

_

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . . .

we must Obey

True enough as well!

 

[patricius79]

Yes, and Mary, our mother, is the one who humbly trusted and obeyed perfectly.

Vatican II affirmed that Mary is “the New Eve”. So I wonder if eventually there will be a fifth Marian dogma, defining Mary is the New Eve, and the implications of this for each Christian and each human person.

 

[pnewton]

There is a problem with attempting to depict difficult doctrines in a way that brings understanding in a “practical sense” to common speech because such depictions open Christianity to straw man attacks from those outside the faith who will attack the inaccurate depiction as if it is the correct one.

Yes, but teaching others is fraught with difficulties, and speech is what we have to speak with. I prefer simpler ways rather than obscure words with multiple meanings, but that is not to say either way is best. Pope Francis has declined to define this dogma, and I just happen to agree.

 

[patricius79]

Though I’m not sure the term “Co’-Redemptrix” should be used in a dogmatic definition, I also wonder if many of those who strongly oppose this title also disagree with what the ordinary Magisterium already teaches about our Blessed Mother.

 

[patricius79]

What the thread concerns is just what the Popes have taught.

That the Blessed Virgin Mary is at least in some sense, Coredemptrix.

She certainly is, since Pope Leo XIII used that title for Our Lady even in an Encyclical.

One of the things I’m concerned about is how little filial love we have toward Mary.

When people who oppose this title quote from Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium, it seems like it’s almost always from one paragraph, number 67, regarding warnings to preachers about leading people into error concerning Church teaching about Mary.

They seem somewhat unaware that this paragraph urges the study of the teachings of doctors of the Church, under the guidance of the Magisterium (which has praised Mary exceedingly and encouraged intense filial devotion) , and warns against “petty narrowmindedness.”

And what about all of the beautiful teachings of Lumen Gentium about Mary, whom the councils fathers call “the cause of our salvation”, “the New Eve”, our “Mother in the order of grace”, “the beloved daughter of the Father”, “the temple of the Holy Spirit”, and our “Mediatrix”?