Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[Cathoholic]

But your use of this EndTimes . . .

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

. . . assumes “leading” somebody “into error”.

Nobody here is advocating (no pun intended) for that.

It also assumes this is merely “devotional”.

 

[patricius79]

Of Which,
You should consider why Vat II had to admonish some -
who are/were involved in the cult of Mary in a manner which went over the Top?

Vatican II exhorted preachers to avoid both gross exaggerations and petty narrow-mindedness.

As far as gross exaggeration, I did read an author–St. Alphonsus Liguori–who says or implies that we won’t be punished even for objectively grave sin if we say one Hail Mary daily.

This book–“The Glories of Mary”–is wonderful and St. Alphonsus is a Doctor of the Church. However, I disagree with him on occasional points.

And I don’t think such ideas are current in the Church. I think instead that there is a neglect of Vatican II’s teachings about Mary’s singular cooperation with Christ in our salvation, as well as neglect of the teachings of the Popes.

 

[EndTimes]

. . . assumes “leading” somebody “into error”.

Indirectly it does and it has occurred… which is why it’s been engraved in Teaching.

With respect to that Church Teaching which acknowledges that excesses in Marian devotions existed and maybe still exists, I never declared that someone(s) in this thread is or isn’t doing advocating such.

My intended focus is to instill the fact that excesses have occurred - and anyone thus ‘over the top’ - if that exists, would v/likely oppose any opposition to, e.g. a “No” placed upon, e.g., a 5th Marian Dogma.

That said? Thus far?

No Mary is not Co-Redemptrix in the sense of being on an equal Redeemer level as is Jesus.

Have any Catholic in History believed that?

No one here could support a “No” - by whatever argument

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . . .

My intended focus is to instill the fact that excesses have occurred

But although there has been errors with individuals, how can asking for less error (more clarity) be equal to asking for more error?

Or am I misreading you here?

No Mary is not Co-Redemptrix in the sense of being on an equal Redeemer level as is Jesus.

Nobody has claimed that here. (I have even gone out of my way to show the opposite.)

They have just claimed a PARTICIPATION as willed by God.

Just like when the lower St. Michael the Archangel casts out a higher angel (Lucifer) and his minions, he calls upon his PARTICIPATION with God that he knows exists (“Who is like unto God!?”).

Just like when Apostles are carrying out Christian Baptism, it is Christ doing the baptisms behind them (see John 4:1). They must have an ASSOCIATION with Christ.

Just like after our moment of salvation, when we by our works that are ASSOCIATED with Christ, actually have a PARTICIPATION or a “koinonia” in Christ.

I gave some examples of THAT type of association already here and here when I discussed the Gospel of Particiption.

Likewise the Blessed Mother has a PARTICIPATION in that Redemption of Christ. A sword pirces Her own soul too! (Others do too, but to a lesser extent.)

 

[EndTimes]

My intended focus is to instill the fact that excesses have occurred

You are misreading… my ‘have occurred’ dovetails withVat II Circa 1965
which admits that serious excesses existed -
as it seeks to stop it!

Again… I’m not pointing to anyone here; per se.

To the OP - this current pope is reiterating Catholic Teaching re: Mary as Co-Redemtrix - Yes?

 

[patricius79]

No Mary is not Co-Redemptrix in the sense of being on an equal Redeemer level as is Jesus.

That’s not what “Co-redemptrix” means. When Vatican II said that Mary singularly co-operated with Christ in our salvation, someone might interpret this to mean something false. But that doesn’t make Vatican’ II’s meaning false.

 

[EndTimes]

As far as gross exaggeration, I did read an author–St. Alphonsus Liguori–who says or implies that we won’t be punished even for objectively grave sin if we say one Hail Mary daily.

That may or may not be so… yet to a degree it drifts from the conversation…
How many Catholics abide by what St. Alphonsus LIguori said?

IMO, even the fuller percentage of Catholics who pray the Rosary and are very devoted to Mary
have been decreasing over the past 50 years.

IMO – Mostly those old enough and/or those who scrutinize this current pope’s actions
involve in discussions such as this one.

That said? This pope reiterated what is Catholic Teaching, yes?

 

[Cathoholic]

This pope reiterated what is Catholic Teaching, yes?

I think that’s the point here for the people asking for a definition.

So they KNOW what is and what is not “Catholic Teaching” here.

As I said. If this Pope’s heart isn’t in it, he should NOT define anything.

 

[EndTimes]

That’s not what “Co-redemptrix” means. When Vatican II said that Mary singularly co-operated with Christ in our salvation, someone might interpret this to mean something false. But that doesn’t make Vatican’ II’s meaning false.

I’m one of the few on this planet who read all of Vat II … many many moons ago.

I’d never say that it’s false.

Although some ‘schismatics’ blame it for troubles caused by Dissident Facilitating ‘theologians’ .

Some Marian 'devotees" indeed had/have placed Mary on an equal Footing w/Jesus wrt Redemption.

They’re wrong .

And Vat II acknowledges that some into the Marian cult were excessive
To the point of bringing it up in an infallible? manner as in Popes w/all bishops in Council/

Enough so, that Yes “they” most likely made some Protestants more anti-Catholic than they are.

There can be no blurring of that …
_

 

[EndTimes]

As I said. If this Pope’s heart isn’t in it, he should NOT define anything.

I cannot speak for his heart…

Did he define anything?

Or did he merely parrot so to speak what already is?

His alleged terminology “foolishness” seems quite the ‘excessive’ - think ye not?

)_

 

[patricius79]

That said? This pope reiterated what is Catholic Teaching, yes?

As I read the article, Pope Francis appeared to be teaching that the title “Co-redemptrix” implies that Mary would take something away from Christ.

I don’t see how this reiterates Catholic teaching.

Pope Leo XII; called Mary “Co-redemptrix” in an encyclical (“Iucunda Semper”). Pope Saint John Paul II also called her by this title.

Vatican II stated:

[This Council] does not, however, have it in mind to give a complete doctrine on Mary, nor does it wish to decide those questions which the work of theologians has not yet fully clarified. Those opinions therefore may be lawfully retained which are propounded in Catholic schools concerning her…
Lumen gentium

 

[EndTimes]

Catholic teaching.

Catholic Teaching teaches that the Son of God Jesus - is the one and only Redeemer

And. Even Mary needed Redemption

**Ergo - Is it really of any surprise **
**that a Title Co-Redemptrix could be very easily misconstrued **
as placing Mary on some sort of Redeemer Equality with The One Redeemer JESUS?

What JPII is claimed to have called Mary - is not Magisterium, yes?

In VAT II – Lumen Gentium – Mary is the Mother of The Redeemer Jesus…

and…

Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.[16]

This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.[17]

JESUS is the One Redeemer, One Mediator.

PS - I’m not claiming that any here - says any different .

I am posting what I’ve posted so that it’s seen …
+

 

[annad347]

Look up… someone people believe it.

so my next question if you believe Mary does defend you, stands by you, helps you, comforts you, prays for you, protects you… even though every thing she says and does points you to her Son… you are still going to her before you got to Him.

“If you have to face God The Father, Jesus, wouldn’t you want someone by your side that is closer to Him then anyone on earth… wouldn’t that person be his mother”, my RCIA teacher said that to me to explain how it was okay to pray to Mary… that just confused me more.

Now I learn co-redemptrix, isn’t a title they want to give to Mary, its a title she already has…

Every time I learn about her its seem people are trying harder and harder to equate her to Jesus and I’m sorry no matter how its explain it, that’s what it feels like… and it scares me to think one day someone will say let Mary bring you to The Father… IMO.

 

[Gorgias]

Look up… someone people believe it.

Let’s be honest. Regardless of the context, “some people” believe things that are in contradiction with what their groups and societies advocate. The fact that “some people” believe a variety of things – the existence of Bigfoot, the suggestion that the moon landings were fabricated, etc, etc – doesn’t mean that what they believe is true. It’s just their personal opinion.

so my next question if you believe Mary does defend you, stands by you, helps you, comforts you, prays for you, protects you… even though every thing she says and does points you to her Son… you are still going to her before you got to Him.

No. No, no, no!

Think of it this way: I love my Mom. She defends me, she stands by me, she helps me, she comforts me, she prays for me, she protects me. But… does that mean that I only encounter Christ through my Mom?

Of course not! That would be a ludicrous assertion! I love Mom. I love Jesus. The two loves don’t conflict with each other, and the love of one doesn’t get in the way of the other.

Every time I learn about her its seem people are trying harder and harder to equate her to Jesus

No. What Catholics are trying to do is to exalt Mary above other humans. Not above Jesus, or even equal to Jesus. It’s just that, of all humans, Mary has a special place. It’s not divine. It’s human. But it’s special.

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . .

I cannot speak for his heart…

That’s right.

I can’t either.

HE is the one who spoke to that here.

Did he define anything?

He did not solemnly define anything about the Blessed Mother being Coredemptrix.

But there is enough from the Church’s teaching/Scripture where I think he easily could.

But unless his heart is in it, I am glad he is not.

He can leave that for a new Pope some day in the future.

.

His (Pope Francis) alleged terminology “foolishness” seems quite the ‘excessive’ - think ye not?

Parenthtical addition mine for context.

A reasonable question, but for me in a forum like this, at this time and situation in history?

No comment.

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . . .

JESUS is the One Redeemer, One Mediator.

This is excellent EndTimes and virtually every Catholic I know would assert this.

But the issue is, dies that one Mediator and Redeemer wish to incorporate mediating IN Him? (And the same for redemption.)

I think the answer for that can be found in St. Paul’s First letter to St. Timothy.

And after doing a search for my answer on that, I will post about the secondary mediation Christians are called to.

In the meantime while praying the Rosary earlier tonight the Lord put on my heart for me to meditate on this with regards to Jesus allowing humanity a participation in His work . . . .

.

MATTHEW 27:32 32 As they were marching out, they came upon a man of Cyre′ne, Simon by name; this man they compelled to carry his cross.

.

Edit:

Addendum. Just came upon this from Homiletic and Pastoral Review . . . .

Carrying the Cross with Simon of Cyrene​

APRIL 13, 2014 BY RICHARD J. GREBENC

We can be sure that Jesus was grateful to Simon for providing some relief during the Passion, but also for helping him reach his goal of redeeming humanity (see Jn 12:27 and Acts 2:23) by his suffering and death.

https://www.hprweb.com/2014/04/carrying-the-cross-with-simon-of-cyrene/

 

[Cathoholic]

From earlier posts of mine . . .

1st TIMOTHY 2:5 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

. . . . . which is exactly what St. Paul tells us a couple of verses before.

1st TIMOTHY 2:1-3 1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications , prayers , intercessions , and thanksgivings be made for all men , 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior . . .

The Context and 1st Timothy 2:5

1st Timothy 2:5 allows for secondary mediation contextually .

That’s WHY in the immediate verses earlier; we are NOT told we cannot pray on behalf of other people.

NOT 1st TIMOTHY 2:1-5 (Phantom Verse) 1 First of all, then, you people cannot make supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 Because if you try to do this, you will be trying to mediate between God and men. It is a terrible thing to try to do this mediation between God and men and totally unacceptable in the sight of God. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. So don’t you dare even think to try mediating in any sense.

No! That would be non-sense.

The issue isn’t CAN WE “mediate between God and men”.
The issue is HOW does Jesus “mediate between God and men”.

That’s part of what “grace” is.
That’s also WHY St. Peter can say we are “partakers” of the Divine nature.
That’s WHY St. Paul tells us we have a “participation” or a “koinonia” in Christ.

So the issue is HOW does Jesus mediate between God and men, NOT “can we please mediate APART from Jesus Christ just a little bit??” (We cannot “mediate” apart from Christ in any sense.)

That’s WHY several verses earlier you and I ARE implored or entreated to mediate and pray on behalf of other people.

We CAN do this mediation that we are TOLD by St. Paul to do (in 1st Timothy 2) precisely because Jesus is the “one mediator” and Jesus works within us!

This is WHY we CAN mediate in some sense. And this mediation of ours (with Christ) is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior

1st TIMOTHY 2:1-5 1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications , prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior , 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Incidentally. Some examples of this concept of Christ at work IN US include Philippians 2:12-13, Philippians 4:13, Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 3:20-21, and Hebrews 13:20a, 21. Other verses . . .

1/2. (More on 1st Timothy 2:5 shortly.)

 

[EndTimes]

Cathoholic - As I said. If this Pope’s heart isn’t in it, he should NOT define anything.

EndTimes . . . > I cannot speak for his heart…

Cathoholic … That’s right. I can’t either.

EndTimes … >And it was you who brought his ‘heart’ into this dialogue

Cathoholic — As I said. If this Pope’s heart isn’t in it, he should NOT define anything.>

Endtimes. So… Did he define anything?

Cathoholic … He did not solemnly define anything about the Blessed Mother being Coredemptrix.

EndTimes - Neither has any pope… and our Knowledge of the Future is limited…

EndTimes > His alleged terminology “foolishness” seems quite the ‘excessive’ - think ye not?

Cathoholic – A reasonable question, but for me in a forum like this, at this time and situation in history? No Comment

EndTimes… Interesting comment; yes… On a connected Note - In your travels, Which Venue In your opinion would it be appropriate to comment on this time and situation in history? …

In the light of the encroaching culmination of this Age - to the best of some abilities of Discernment based upon Faith and Spirit, people need to know what’s going down; think ye not?

Jesus IN You…

 

[patricius79]

IMO, even the fuller percentage of Catholics who pray the Rosary and are very devoted to Mary
have been decreasing over the past 50 years.

I think so too. St. John Berchmans was asked which devotion to Mary to practice. He said to practice any devotion which one prefers, provided one practices it regularly. Today, I think that rather few Catholics practice any daily devotion to Mary.

So I think the primary concern needs to be educating people about the Mother of God, about how much she helps and loves us, and about the importance of our gratitude toward our mother in the order of grace.

 

[patricius79]

What JPII is claimed to have called Mary - is not Magisterium, yes?

I don’t know to what extent oral Papal statements–whether from Pope John Paul II or from Pope Francis, or any Pope–require sincere adherence (“religious assent or the mind and will”).

Pope Leo XIII’s use of “Co-redemptrix” was in an Encyclical, which, as I understand it, is a very weighty magisterial document.

Now, can this term be easily misunderstood? Probably–at least with those who already are set against the Church. But can’t the same be said of much of Catholic teaching, including the Mariological statements and terms–such as “Mediatrix”–which are approved by Vatican II and are definitely magisterial?

Here is Pope Leo XIII in the Encyclical “Iucunda Semper”:

For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place…
http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-x...enc_08091894_iucunda-semper-expectatione.html