Mary Mediatrix of All Graces

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Fauken said:
Even if it’s not, what’s your point? How many of Mary’s titles are not regularly celebrated in the ordinary form? When was the last time you attended a Mass for Our Lady of Good Council, or Our Lady of Knock? Are those suddenly non-existent because they don’t have a set place in the OF’s calendar?
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I think your conflating a few things… Our Lady of Knock and Good Council are private revelations that a Catholic can subscribe to or not. Sort of like Mediatrix of All Graces… I think we are talking about whether or not Mediatrix of All Graces is a doctrine of the faith that requires assent of belief from all Catholics.
 
The only real thing about Mediatrix is that:

“No graces given to man are given without the intercession of our Lady.” (teaching level: pious and probable).

A secondary meaning is that our Lady freely gave her consent, and the Source of all grace was born into the world (teaching level: certain).

That’s really all it is.

I intensely dislike analogies like Mary “distributes” the graces as if she were some sort of treasurer: here’s one for you, one for you, two for you, four for you, none for you…

I dislike the “neck” imagery as well, for the same reasons as the “distributes” imagery. Reason given above: the Sacraments, which work ex opere operato. No “distribution” by Mary.

I also disagree, very strongly, with the idea that she is a mediator between man and Christ. The Incarnation itself tells us this cannot be, as only the God-Man can be Mediator in the strict sense. There is no need for Mary to mediate between Christ and man, because Christ himself is man and God. This is his very role as both Redeemer and Eternal High Priest, and no intermediary is required between man on earth and Christ. Adding this role approaches violation of Scripture (cf. 1 Tim 2:5; Heb 7:24-25) and the theology of the Sacraments.

No, Mary is an intercessor, and an intercessor par excellence. The concept of Mediatrix simply tells us that in the order of grace God has laid out from eternity, he has ordained that all graces given to man at least since the moment of the Assumption given (directly by God) are also due to the intercession for those graces by our Lady.

So when I was absolved of my sins directly by Christ (through the ministry of his priest), it was because our Lady prayed for me. When I received Communion and obtained sacramental grace, and Christ’s Presence itself, it was also because our Lady prayed that this would happen. When I was baptized and justified through Christ’s blood (directly), it was because Mary prayed that it would be so.

That is how I best understand (and I believe is the correct way) the title.

Oh, and for all this, it should remain at least sent. certa at the most. It should not be defined as dogma.
 
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How about her espousals, then? She was espoused to Joseph, that is doctrine, is it not? Are those questionable because they’re not celebrated in the OF? Is her humility questionable because it’s not in the OF? Her interior life blemished? Is she not the Mother of the Divine Shepard anymore because it’s not in the OF?
 
Sounds like you don’t like Lumen Gentium, then. Or shall we just cut out Chapter 8, which reads:
“Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.[31] This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.[32]”
 
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porthos11 said:
I intensely dislike analogies like Mary “distributes” the graces as if she were some sort of treasurer: here’s one for you, one for you, two for you, four for you, none for you…
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Really? I love it myself. I think of Mary distributing the graces like beams from her hands or from the rings on her hands, just like St. Catherine Laboure’s vision of Our Lady of Grace.
Like the recipients get zapped with a heavenly colored laser light beam containing just the grace they need.
 
Actually, the conclusion of my syllogism directly addresses the topic at hand: “Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces.” Where is the non-sequitor?
 
Tis_Bearself said:
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porthos11:
I intensely dislike analogies like Mary “distributes” the graces as if she were some sort of treasurer: here’s one for you, one for you, two for you, four for you, none for you…
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Really? I love it myself. I think of Mary distributing the graces like beams from her hands or from the rings on her hands, just like St. Catherine Laboure’s vision of Our Lady of Grace.
Like the recipients get zapped with a heavenly colored laser light beam containing just the grace they need.
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Yes, I absolutely dislike it, because I do not believe the analogy is correct.

Catholic teaching is clear: Sacraments work ex opere operato. This means that when I am absolved, it is Christ who is absolving me. My restoration to sanctifying grace is the work of the Holy Trinity directly on me. Yes, it can be agreed that our Lady has interceded that this will be so, but I am not going “through” her for this. I am not even going “through” the priest. I am going directly to Christ and Christ is working directly on me.

The Eucharist is also a particular example. That is Christ going straight into you. Yes, our Lady interceded for this grace, but I did not have to go through her to receive Christ in the Eucharist. She did not “distribute” or “hand” that grace to me. Christ came directly to me in the Sacrament.
 
anon10271182 said:
Sounds like you don’t like Lumen Gentium, then. Or shall we just cut out Chapter 8, which reads:

“Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.[31] This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.[32]”
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Check out the LG post from earlier… also, Mediatrix is not Mediatrix of All Graces.
 
anon10271182 said:
Sounds like you don’t like Lumen Gentium, then. Or shall we just cut out Chapter 8, which reads:
“Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.[31] This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.[32]”
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My post is based heavily on Lumen Gentium, so I’m not sure from where in my post you would even draw that conclusion.

Nothing I’ve said even detracts from the passage you quoted.
 
“all dogs are animals; all animals have four legs; therefore all dogs have four legs” that works… what you propose does not… at least not for all graces.
 
Could you please point out then where exactly in his logic that his premises fail to follow? Or that one of them are false?
 
Therein lies the rub. Premise 1 is de fide, and premise 2 is explicitly stated by Lumen Gentium.
Unfortunately, we stopped teaching logical reasoning in formal education eons ago. I was fortunate enough to acquire the rudiments in a grad class. And from reading Aquinas, of course. Deo gratias!
 
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If Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, is the source of all graces, and

Mary is “A” Mediatrix between humanity and Christ, then

Mary is Mediatrix of graces.

Added “A” in line 2, removed all from line 3

Christ works through many mediators…and directly with each of us.

…enjoyed debating with you all this morning… have to run, but will check in later.

Pax Christi
 
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Changing the language does not refute the original syllogism.
Perhaps when you return, you might elaborate upon “many mediators?”
But yes, have a great day, and Pax Christi!
 
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