Mary- other children

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

I was going to let this post pass without comment untill i read the last sentence.
Joseph Mary and Jesus were Jews. In their culture it was considered good to have many children. Virginity was not honored in marraige only before it.
To assume Mary made a perpetual vow and then would bethrowed to joseph makes no sense.
A prophet is not without honor except in his own home.
This is true today, in Jesus’ time and before Jesus. No matter what was done people would talk about Him.
I was talking about the immorality in the wordly culture you were talking about the morality in the culture in Nazereth.

Again, your interpretation or translation is wrong. Jesus was speaking not of his own home but of his own village, Nazareth, his hometown.

The village was small in comparison to the kind of places where we live. There is no doubt that the people there knew Jesus as he was growing up. That is one reason why they could not understand what he was saying. They knew him before he began his public life

So again, those who have informed you have failed to understand Scripture.

Maggie

 

[deborah1313]

oudave:

Hi
We are not adament about getting rid of Mary. Mary was an incredible woman and was looked on with favor by God. The problem is that the catholic church places her importance with that of Jesus. You say that she was sinnless because scripture says that she was full of grace, look up grace in any dictionary and it has nothing that refurs to sinless, as a matter of fact I have heard grace explained from a priest as being unmerrited favor, unmerrited meaning not deserving or unearned. You say she remained a virgin all her life, one problem is that it says nowhere in scripture that she died a virgin. Which brings me to my next point, you say she was taken to Heaven like Enoch, one more problem it doesn’t say that in the scriptures either. Praying to Mary and claiming that she is the intersessor for us to Christ is taking away the importance of Christ. I mean do you think that Jesus is just to busy taking care of the worlds problems that he need someone to take prayers for him. Mary is probably mad at you for making her out to be Jesus’s secretary or thinking that her wonderful son who died for the sins of everyone, including hers (we know this because it is in scripture Rom 3:23 - 5:12) was not perfect. You need to trust more in the word of God and not so much in the falable oral traditions of man.
In Him and Him only, Dave. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

Queries/Points

1. Who is “we”? For whom are you speaking?
2. Nowhere in scripture does it say that she didn’t die a virgin.
3. The Catholic Church (and for correct English usage, if not out of simple respect, you ought to capitalize the name) does NOT say that Mary was taken to heaven like Enoch. Mary died. Her body was taken to heaven after she died. Have you ever heard of the Dormition of the Virgin?
4. I have never had the great honor to meet the Rev. Billy Graham, but I sure would like to. I honor him for his faith, his service, his dedication. If I met him, you can bet I’d ask him to pray with me and for me. And I would speak to him very respectfully because I hold him in high esteem.

I have never had the great honor to meet Mary, the Mother of Jesus, my Lord and Saviour, but I sure would like to. I honor her for her faith, her service, her dedication. If I met her, you can bet I’d ask her to pray with me and for me. And I would speak to her very respectfully because I hold her in high esteem.

1. Where, in anything that I, personally, have written, or in any Church documents have you gotten the idea that I or the Church, or any other catholic for that matter, thinks that Jesus is imperfect? I have never said anything like that, and you won’t find it in anything published by the Church. To say that Jesus wasn’t imperfect is heresy, so you won’t find that in anything written by me, the Church or anyone here.
2. Dave, how did you come to decide the condition of my heart? You said that I don’t trust the Word of God. I do. He died for me. (see John 1.) I also trust the Bible. It is inspired, and I believe St. Paul on the subject(all scripture is inspired by God).

In the love of Christ Jesus,

deborah

 

[Redbandito]

Scott Waddell:

I can’t help detecting a note of quasi-Islamic thinking in people who object to intercession of the saints. That is, as if God is all majesty and we are just His muzzled lap dogs. Or that praise is finite like a pizza where if Mary gets to many slices God is left only with crumbs and an empty box to live on. Nonsense.

We are children in the divine family. Lets say my son wants something from me. He could just ask me sure, but if he asks his mother to ask me as well I am more inclined to grant the request. Do I get mad that the son ask his mother as if he is somehow going over my head? Not at all. In fact, I should praise him for being so wise. With all the familial excerpts in Scripture, it is not unreasonable to suggest that something similar (albeit ,far better as “the prayers of the righteous availeth much”) goes on in our relationship with the Heavenly Father.

Scott

Thanks for writing this Scott. I could not have said it any better if I spent all week on it, and put into a 50 page thesis. I think a big difference we run into with Protestants is our understanding of what grace is and what it does. Grace is certainly an unmerited gift. But, it is more than that. Grace allows us to “become partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet 1:3-5). Grace elevates our nature to that of God’s. He does this so he might call us His “adopted sons” (Rom 8:12-17). Scripture is familial throughout. As God made a covenant with His people, He brought them closer to Him. He also extended His influence. With Adam, it was just him. With Noah, it was a family. With Abraham it was a clan. With Moses it was a nation. With David it was a kingdom. Finally, Christ brings us the Heavenly kingdom. This kingdom is not one of judge and defendant, but of a Father and His children. Mary is given to us as our mother (Jn 19:27). I don’t see why this is so hard to accept. I believe it is more of an emotional thing than an actual Scriptural complaint. I think the emotion has led certain people to look to discredit Mary and her role. Thus, the very thing Catholics are accussed of are the very things their accussers are guilty of. One last question. Will someone please give more of a treatment on Mary in Rev. 12. How can one deny that while symoblically the woman is Israel, that literally it is Mary? This would place Mary as the Queen Mother of the tribes of Israel, and substantiate our claims a great deal. So, I would like a Protestant to give their argument against this is if you would be so kind. Thanks. God bless.

Josh

 

[oudave]

Scott Waddell:

I can’t help detecting a note of quasi-Islamic thinking in people who object to intercession of the saints. That is, as if God is all majesty and we are just His muzzled lap dogs. Or that praise is finite like a pizza where if Mary gets to many slices God is left only with crumbs and an empty box to live on. Nonsense.

We are children in the divine family. Lets say my son wants something from me. He could just ask me sure, but if he asks his mother to ask me as well I am more inclined to grant the request. Do I get mad that the son ask his mother as if he is somehow going over my head? Not at all. In fact, I should praise him for being so wise. With all the familial excerpts in Scripture, it is not unreasonable to suggest that something similar (albeit ,far better as “the prayers of the righteous availeth much”) goes on in our relationship with the Heavenly Father.

Scott

If you are more inclined to grant something to your wife than your child then you must love and respect her more than your child. Nothing melts my heart more than when one of my children come’s to me in need of something. Usally when a child goes to one parent it’s because they are either ashamed of or affraid to ask the other. You can candycoat it as much as you want but I have heard the prayers of catholics and you DO pray to others instead of Christ. Hail Mary’s are prayed TO Mary.
Dave:yup:

 

[Tantum_ergo]

At the risk of a Clintonesque “it depends on what ‘is’”,

Just what do you mean by “praying to?”
Do you mean that you think Catholics pray to Mary exactly as they pray to God? That they don’t, or can’t, distinguish between God Almighty and God’s creatures? Isn’t that rather condescending?

Or do you think that prayer can only be made to God? Where do you come up with that belief? Are there no parts in the Bible where one person asks for the prayers of another? Hardly—the Bible is filled with instances of people asking each other to intercede for them with God. . .

But prayer is not just for God. Prayer is simply talking to someone. You can pray to your Mom, your teacher, your child. You are talking to them, or with them.

OTOH, when Catholics pray to God (as opposed to anyone else, living or dead), we ask Him, and Him alone, to help us, guard us, protect us, etc.

We ask the Saints, Mary above all, to “pray for us”. We don’t ask Mary to do anything in and of herself for us. We don’t say, “Mary, save us from sin”. . .We DO say, “Mary, pray for us that we be saved from sin through the merits and protection of your Son”. . .

Can you see the difference?

Here’s a typical short prayer:

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

Now, are we asking Mary to do anything for us but pray to God?

Contrast with "Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. . . "

We ask God to “give us our bread, forgive us our trespasses, lead us not into temptation”. . .

but we don’t ask Him to pray for us. He’s GOD. . .

Can you see the difference now?

It’s like asking your Pastor, your mother, your friend, to pray for you. Your pastor can’t do anything in and of himself except to pray for you. . .only God can answer the prayer.

Mary doesn’t do anything just in and of herself, she isn’t a quasi-God, but she prays for us, as God’s mother and as our own mother, since we are adopted sons and daughters of God as well. . .she prays, but only God can answer the prayer.

 

[mtr01]

oudave:

You can candycoat it as much as you want but I have heard the prayers of catholics and you DO pray to others instead of Christ. Hail Mary’s are prayed TO Mary.
Dave:yup:

Let’s take a look:

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee *(Luke 1:28)
Blessed art thou amongst women
*and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus *(Luke 1:42)
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen

So what do we have here? We have the first part addressing our prayer to our Mother using scripture, in the spirit of Luke 1:48 ("henceforth all generations shall call me blessed). Then there is the second part of the prayer which specifically and undeniably asks Her to pray for us.

It’s a perfect example of what everyone has been saying in this thread. Of course we are praying to Mary…who else would we pray to in order to ask the Blessed Mother to pray for us?

 

[Redbandito]

oudave:

If you are more inclined to grant something to your wife than your child then you must love and respect her more than your child. Nothing melts my heart more than when one of my children come’s to me in need of something. Usally when a child goes to one parent it’s because they are either ashamed of or affraid to ask the other. You can candycoat it as much as you want but I have heard the prayers of catholics and you DO pray to others instead of Christ. Hail Mary’s are prayed TO Mary.
Dave:yup:

Dave, you are wrong sir. I am sorry, but as a Christian man, you need to give the benefit of the doubt to what we are saying. Hail Mary’s are “prayed to Mary” eh? Let’s just see. “Hail Mary, full of grace, the word is with you” (Lk 1:28). “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus” (Lk 1:42). So far, all we have done is recite Scripture. Finally, we end with, “Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS, now and at the hour of death”. Certainly sounds like we are asking for her prayers to me. Dave, you need to put the sarcasm and “know-it-all” mentality aside, and admit you are not an expert here. We all can learn when we are humble. Don’t let pride get in the way of seeing what is so blatantly clear on this subject.

Secondly, you try and put God on your level. For staters, Jesus does not have children. He is our mediator, not the Father. Mary, as all OT Queen Mother’s did, intercessed on behalf of her son’s kingdom. She goes to her son with our prayers. This certainly doesn’t undermine what Scripture says, and your detour about loving a child more than a wife if irrelevant. Finally, it is marriage that is the sacrament, not parenthood. God bless.

Josh

 

[Tom]

quotes from CA the rosary:

oudave:

If you are more inclined to grant something to your wife than your child then you must love and respect her more than your child. Nothing melts my heart more than when one of my children come’s to me in need of something. Usally when a child goes to one parent it’s because they are either ashamed of or affraid to ask the other. You can candycoat it as much as you want but I have heard the prayers of catholics and you DO pray to others instead of Christ. Hail Mary’s are prayed TO Mary.
Dave:yup:

in addition to being straight from verses in the New Testament, read the conclusion of the prayer!

The Hail Mary

The next prayer in the rosary, and the prayer which is really at the center of the devotion, is the Hail Mary. Since the Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary, many Protestants assume it’s unbiblical. Quite the contrary, actually. Let’s look at it.
The prayer begins, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” This is nothing other than the greeting the angel Gabriel gave Mary in Luke 1:28 (Confraternity Version). The next part reads this way:
“Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” This was exactly what Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said to her in Luke 1:42. The only thing that has been added to these two verses are the names “Jesus” and “Mary,” to make clear who is being referred to. So the first part of the Hail Mary is entirely biblical.
The second part of the Hail Mary is not taken straight from Scripture, but it is entirely biblical in the thoughts it expresses. It reads:
“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”
Let’s look at the first words. Some Protestants do object to saying “Holy Mary” because they claim Mary was a sinner like the rest of us. But Mary was a Christian (the first Christian, actually, the first to accept Jesus; cf. Luke 1:45), and the Bible describes Christians in general as holy. In fact, they are called saints, which means “holy ones” (Eph. 1:1, Phil. 1:1, Col. 1:2). Furthermore, as the mother of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Mary was certainly a very holy woman.
Some Protestants object to the title “Mother of God,” but suffice it to say that the title doesn’t mean Mary is older than God; it means the person who was born of her was a divine person, not a human person. (Jesus is one person, the divine, but has two natures, the divine and the human; it is incorrect to say he is a human person.) The denial that Mary had God in her womb is a heresy known as Nestorianism (which claims that Jesus was two persons, one divine and one human), which has been condemned since the early 400s and which the Reformers and Protestant Bible scholars have always rejected.

 

[Redbandito]

oudave:

If you are more inclined to grant something to your wife than your child then you must love and respect her more than your child. Nothing melts my heart more than when one of my children come’s to me in need of something. Usally when a child goes to one parent it’s because they are either ashamed of or affraid to ask the other. You can candycoat it as much as you want but I have heard the prayers of catholics and you DO pray to others instead of Christ. Hail Mary’s are prayed TO Mary.
Dave:yup:

Dave, you are wrong sir. I am sorry, but as a Christian man, you need to give the benefit of the doubt to what we are saying. Hail Mary’s are “prayed to Mary” eh? Let’s just see. “Hail Mary, full of grace, the word is with you” (Lk 1:28). “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus” (Lk 1:42). So far, all we have done is recite Scripture. Finally, we end with, “Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS, now and at the hour of death”. Certainly sounds like we are asking for her prayers to me. Dave, you need to put the sarcasm and “know-it-all” mentality aside, and admit you are not an expert here. We all can learn when we are humble. Don’t let pride get in the way of seeing what is so blatantly clear on this subject.

Secondly, you try and put God on your level. For staters, Jesus does not have children. He is our mediator, not the Father. Mary, as all OT Queen Mother’s did, intercessed on behalf of her son’s kingdom. She goes to her son with our prayers. This certainly doesn’t undermine what Scripture says, and your detour about loving a child more than a wife if irrelevant. Finally, it is marriage that is the sacrament, not parenthood. God bless.

Josh

 

[Benadam]

oudave:

Hi

The problem is that the catholic church places her importance with that of Jesus.

Not at all. We recognize that Jesus is human and divine, and Mary is human. This difference distinguishes Jesus as the only mediator to the Father.

The unfortunate misconception that many protestants cling too is the unapproachable majesty of God. In a way the divinity of Christ is not given the attention it deserves.

This majesty is Jesus and especially the resurrected Christ. Remember how He affectedSt.Paul on the road to Damascus.

So, there is only one mediator to the Father, but there are many intercessors to the Son. This becomes a necessity when one understands their own wretchedness in the face of Christ.

8When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’ knees and said, “Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!”

Praying to Mary and claiming that she is the intersessor for us to Christ is taking away the importance of Christ. I mean do you think that Jesus is just to busy taking care of the worlds problems that he need someone to take prayers for him.

The structure of heaven is built on the bonds between persons. First the divine bond between the Persons of the Trinity then the human bonds between Christ and the rest of humanity. Many protestants fail to appreciate just how human Christ is and assume that the bonds between Him and His friends and family become meaningless because of the nature of spiritual bonds.

For Jesus like any other human person His friends and family mean the same thing to Him as they do to you and I. To deny this is to deny a necessary part of being human.

If you want to get close to someone that will throw you off your horse and in who’s sight your wretched state is unavoidably experienced you will want to approach His Majesty through those who you and He may know in common. Not because He is too lofty in His own mind for you too approach but because you will feel that you are unworthy in your own sight to approach.

Thank The Lord for His Mother and His brothers and sisters who do the will of God and intercede on our behalf.

Mary is probably mad at you for making her out to be Jesus’s secretary or thinking that her wonderful son who died for the sins of everyone, including hers (we know this because it is in scripture Rom 3:23 - 5:12) was not perfect.

Not only do we recognize His perfection we hold it in such esteem that we don’t confuse her perfection with divinity. Perfection doesn’t imply divinity. God made everything perfect.

You need to trust more in the word of God and not so much in the falable oral traditions of man.
In Him and Him only, Dave. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

To trust is to know to know is a ‘union’ of ‘likeness’

Since the dawn of time the lives of the People of God have made the Word of God visible and that scroll of life has been followed by a tradition that preserves the Word of God. This is the tradition not of man but confirmed by the Word of God made man and continues unbroken to this day.

Any claim to the Word of God outside of it is a tradition of man’s making. To claim that at some arbitrary moment in time that the tradition of the People of God is a useless reality is to claim that the People of God are useless and not worth remembering.

 

[Xavier]

MaggieOH:

So you are denying the words of Scripture. Did you read what is written in the Scripture? I posted the words of Jesus. He said it. The New Covenant is made in the Blood of Jesus Christ. He is the reason that we have a New Covenant.

Nice try. I remain unimpressed with such bad theology.

Maggie

Covenants in the Old Testament were sealed with blood. The term blood covenant comes from these times.
The blood used to seal the New Testament was that of Jesus.
The reason we have the New Covenant is that the old Covenant was insufficent.

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

But Jesus is not the Law.
It is the Law that is written on our hearts.
The Ark of the Old Covenant housed the Law the Ark of the new Covenant houses the Law .
Mary was unique and blessed. We too are unique and blessed.

So you do not believe what Jesus said about being the New Covenant being in His Blood.

This kind of thinking is confusing. Yes it is true that the law of God is written on our hearts. However, your analogy is really up the spout…

The reason that I say this is that the line of reasoning that you are taking is almost a denial of Jesus being a real person who came and lived on this earth. It is almost like a denial that Jesus is both human and divine.

How do we explain God? When we speak of the Divine Nature of God, we recognize Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In making this distinction we are better able to understand the mystery of our Redemption. Jesus is Emmanuel, that is “God is with us”. Since Jesus, who is God became Man, He, the Living God was in the womb of Mary. We do not carry God in the Flesh within us as Mary did.

Yes, we who are baptized receive the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who is there and who guides us. He does this in the form of Grace. It is God’s gift of Grace that is within us. God is not within us in the same way that God lived within Mary.

There is a distinction that must be made otherwise we miss the whole point of being Christian.

Maggie

 

[Xavier]

MaggieOH:

Again, your interpretation or translation is wrong. Jesus was speaking not of his own home but of his own village, Nazareth, his hometown.

The village was small in comparison to the kind of places where we live. There is no doubt that the people there knew Jesus as he was growing up. That is one reason why they could not understand what he was saying. They knew him before he began his public life

So again, those who have informed you have failed to understand Scripture.

Maggie

Jesus said this in reference to His hometown folks, however it is true outside of the context that it was said.

 

[Benadam]

Xavier:

Covenants in the Old Testament were sealed with blood. The term blood covenant comes from these times.
The blood used to seal the New Testament was that of Jesus.
The reason we have the New Covenant is that the old Covenant was insufficent.

Here is what the bible say’s about the new and old covenants.

Galatians 4: 24-27

One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written: “Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”**(“Galatians 4 NIV - What I am saying is that as long as an - Bible Gateway”)]

This passage clearly shows Sarah as a foreshadowing of Mary as the Ark of the covenant . Even though Sarah has Abraham for a husband she is referenced as not having one. Bringing us to the conjugal act being the sign understood in the Old Testament of marriage, and Mary’s perpetual virginity.

 

[MaggieOH]

oudave:

If you are more inclined to grant something to your wife than your child then you must love and respect her more than your child. Nothing melts my heart more than when one of my children come’s to me in need of something. Usally when a child goes to one parent it’s because they are either ashamed of or affraid to ask the other. You can candycoat it as much as you want but I have heard the prayers of catholics and you DO pray to others instead of Christ. Hail Mary’s are prayed TO Mary.
Dave:yup:

“Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with you” (Ref Luke 1:28)

Please note I am not using the watered down Protestant version: Rejoice so highly favoured. Yet if you want the terminology so highly favoured really does say that Mary has received all of God’s favours - GRACE.

“Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb”

“Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, why should I be honoured with a visit from the mother of my LORD? For the moment your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leapt for joy. Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made to her by the Lord would be fulfilled.” (Lk 1:42-45)

The first half of the Hail Mary is a direct quotation from Scripture. This is not praying to Mary. It is a recognition that is given to the Mother of my Lord as it is written in the Scripture.

“Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen”

We recognize the holiness of the woman who bore the Son of God and we recognize her unique role as Mother of the Lord (see reference in Luke’s Gospel) that she can ask the Son to have mercy on us at the hour of our death.

This is how I see the recitation of the Haily Mary. It is a devout prayer. It does more than that though, because as we recite each of the mysteries we are taken through a journed of the Gospels. For those of us who have extended versions of the Rosary, we are also taken through a more extended path through the Scripture. The end result? We come to know the Scripture like never before. We come to understand the healing power of the Lord in our lives.

Mary always tells us “Do what He tells you”. In return we say, “please ask your Son…”

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

oudave:

Hi
We are not adament about getting rid of Mary. Mary was an incredible woman and was looked on with favor by God. The problem is that the catholic church places her importance with that of Jesus. You say that she was sinnless because scripture says that she was full of grace, look up grace in any dictionary and it has nothing that refurs to sinless, as a matter of fact I have heard grace explained from a priest as being unmerrited favor, unmerrited meaning not deserving or unearned. You say she remained a virgin all her life, one problem is that it says nowhere in scripture that she died a virgin. Which brings me to my next point, you say she was taken to Heaven like Enoch, one more problem it doesn’t say that in the scriptures either. Praying to Mary and claiming that she is the intersessor for us to Christ is taking away the importance of Christ. I mean do you think that Jesus is just to busy taking care of the worlds problems that he need someone to take prayers for him. Mary is probably mad at you for making her out to be Jesus’s secretary or thinking that her wonderful son who died for the sins of everyone, including hers (we know this because it is in scripture Rom 3:23 - 5:12) was not perfect. You need to trust more in the word of God and not so much in the falable oral traditions of man.
In Him and Him only, Dave. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

“His mother said to the servants *Do whatever he tells you…”
*
I wonder if you really understand what this means? You see you say a lot of words that sound like objections, but those words are just waffle. Some even sounds like they came out of a Jack Chick Tract called “Why is Mary Crying”. If that is the case then I feel sad that you would take notice of someone who does not know the Catholic Church and who is so full of hate towards the Catholic Church.

You misunderstand the relationship that Catholics have with Jesus. Owing to that misunderstanding you place Mary on a pedestal in order to knock her to the floor thinking that you have a legitimate objection to a Catholic practice. I doubt that you have ever looked into the history behind the rosary for example in order to understand why this prayer is recited so faithfully by so many Catholics, and why we believe so earnestly that God will answer our prayers.

We do not put Mary on the same pedestal where you place her. Yes, we honour the Woman who gave birth to Jesus. Without her fiat the Redemption could not have happened.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

oudave:

If you are more inclined to grant something to your wife than your child then you must love and respect her more than your child. Nothing melts my heart more than when one of my children come’s to me in need of something. Usally when a child goes to one parent it’s because they are either ashamed of or affraid to ask the other. You can candycoat it as much as you want but I have heard the prayers of catholics and you DO pray to others instead of Christ. Hail Mary’s are prayed TO Mary.
Dave:yup:

I am a wife and a mother of three sons. If my sons want something, they do not go direct to their father on most occasions, they will come to me in order to have support for their request. I should add here that my sons are now adults. The youngest is about to turn 22. They have had their problems in their lives, and they need to know that they will receive comfort when things go wrong.

A mother is the one who gives comfort. Fathers tend to project an image of sterness and mothers an image of softness and comfort.

This is the same in lots of ways where our relationship with Mary and the Holy Trinity is concerned. Sometimes we project an image of sterness onto the Father, for we do not call out often enough Abba (daddy) . It is because we tend to project the Father as being stern that we perceive our own need to go to the one that we feel will give us comfort and who will plead to Her Son on our behalf in the same way as Bathsheba pleaded to David on behalf of her sons.

It is really about Family. Are we really in the Family of God? If you say yes and you do not honour the one who bore the Son of God, then I have to ask why do you not honour your Mother as you do your Father in Heaven?

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

Jesus said this in reference to His hometown folks, however it is true outside of the context that it was said.

No. You are adding to the Scripture with your statement. It is not true outside of the context. The context of the statement was inside of the synagogue. The people in Nazareth were present in the synagogue and no doubt the close relatives (brethren) were also present at the time.

To give a personal example to illustrate this point: At the present time I live in Sydney. Neither my husband or I, or even my children were born in Sydney. People in our situation tend to think of where they grew up as being home. My home is in Melbourne and my husband’s home is in Newcastle or Maitland. When I return to Melbourne to visit my mother I am returning “home” even if I now have my own established home.
That is because I am returning to the area where I grew up. The people in the area know me as the youngest daughter of Mr & Mrs H. If I went for a visit down there and said that I had been granted Divine powers and that the Spirit of the Lord had come upon me to all and sundry, do you think that these people who knew me when I was a child and teenager are likely to believe such a story? NO. They would not, and neither would my immediate family.

Jesus was speaking to the whole of Nazareth because they did not believe Him since they knew that he was THE Carpenter’s son and the son of Mary. They also knew his relatives, especially the ones who were present in the synagogue. Jesus was responding to what they, the townspeople were thinking. Not to his family and kinsfolk.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

The Old Covenant was a pledge by Jehovah to bless His people, to be their God, to multible them to prosper them if they would obey His commands.
Jesus is not the New Covenant anymore than Jehovah was the Old Covenant.
The New Covenant is a pledge by God to give eternal life to whoever believes on Jesus.

There was more than one Covenant that was made in the Old Testament. Covenant history is really quite interesting.

Maggie

 

[sfp]

oudave:

There is a big difference in praying FOR someone and praying TO someone.

This is exactly where you’re wrong. The Bible is clear on the fact that death does not separate us from the body of Christ. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be hoping to go to heaven.