Mary- other children

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Xavier:
It is a question of giving Mary honor that belongs only to God.
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Mary is the mother of God. I don’t envision God being irrate and condemning an individual because s/he honors His mother. 🙂
 
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Xavier:
Not if Mary understood that she would have this child before her marriage.
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Exactly what words of the angel in Scripture would give her that thought? None, that is so completely illogical. The angel is telling her what “shall” happen. She is engaged to be married, the angel tells her what “shall” happen. How can you even imagine she would think that? What did the angel say that gives you this impression?
 
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Xavier:
This is where you lose us. And rightly so.
All honor all glory all praise be to you Lord.
You want to give Mary some of the glory that only God deserves.
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No I don’t.
 
Tantum ergo:
But we aren’t giving Mary honor that belongs only to God.
How could we?
She is God’s creation, just like us.
As His creation, she is also the Mother of God Himself.
He made her without the burden of original sin (i.e., “full of grace”)
Thus, she is an example for us to aspire to.
We can’t aspire to be God. Right? But we do want to be the very best that we can be for God? Right?

We honor her, we don’t worship her.
I honor my own mother above all other women on earth. One: she’s my mother. Two: she’s a very holy person.

I certainly don’t worship my mother, though. I don’t confuse her with God, and I don’t give her the honor that goes to God alone.

The Virgin Mary I honor above all other people (save God) in heaven. One? She’s my mother. Two: She is the holiest person–since she carried God Himself in her womb and was trusted to raise Him on this earth–who ever existed, with the exception of Jesus in the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. To restate, she is the holiest “creation” that ever walked the earth.

I honor her, but it is the honor due a “primus inter pares”, so to speak–a first among equals. You’ve heard the term? Mary is a creation, like me. She is, among created beings, the highest.

But even the highest being cannot aspire to the heights of God, the creator. Him alone do we worship with all our being.

Honoring and attempting to emulate other creations who are holy and righteous only leads us CLOSER to God. It is a good thing to honor the saints who give us good example of how to live for God. But never, never do we equate them with God.
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Hi
I have one question for you, do you kneel before a statue and pray to your Mother like you do Mary? thats the difference we are trying to make. You can put as many fancy words around it as you want but kneeling before a statue is idolitry.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
In Him and Him only, Dave.
 
God is no more offended when His creation (Mary) is praised any more than an artist is offended when his painting is praised.

Scott
 
God is no more offended when His creation (Mary) is praised than an artist is offended when his painting is praised.

Scott
 
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oudave:
…
I thought that Catholics believed that Mary was assumed to Heaven, if I am wrong then I’m sorry, I don’t think scripture states anywhere that she was…

…I don’t believe that I said Catholics believe that Jesus was imperfect, I did say that Catholics believe Mary was perfect, when in fact Jesus says in scripture that he was the only perfect one. I believe that to be true.

…I wrote in another post that if the pope were to come out and say that God had just appeared to him and told him that if every church member would go and dip there head in the Jordan river seven time then they would not have to go to purgatory, you would see thousand and thousands Catholics going to the Jordan jordan. That is what I meant by Catholics following man…
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First…
You need to understand that just because something isn’t “iterated” in the Bible, doesn’t mean that it isn’t true. The Bible itself teaches that there are many things that were taught by word of mouth by the apostles that weren’t written down. For the first 4 centuries, there was no “canon” of the new testament. If the Bible is the only sole rule of faith, then what do you say of those first few centuries of people?? The Bible is venerated by the Church, but is NOT the sole rule of faith…it NEVER WAS, and it doesn’t say this anywhere in the Bible!

Secondly, Jesus’s statement that ALL have sinned has exceptions (and notice the context is about ACTUAL sin, NOT original sin)…

Exceptions to “all” have sinned…
  1. Jesus himself
  2. Babies
  3. Severely retarded
All of the above are millions of exceptions to this “rule.” You must be conscious and knowing of your sin for it to be a sin. So, if there are millions of exceptions to his statement, then you must admit that he didn’t “actually” mean “all” in a literal sense. That being said, if there are exceptions, then why is it so ludicrous to believe what ALL of the Church fathers and Christians of the first 16 centuries believed about Mary’s sinlessness. Why is it so ludicrous to believe that the person carrying our SINLESS SAVIOUR was not preserved so herself, so as not to defile the Son of God in ANY WAY? WHY??? Can’t your God do that? I pity you, if your God is not capable of providing such an important, undefiled “womb” for His son.

Your last comment shows your mis-understanding of the Papacy and the authority of the Church. The Pope, nor the Church has EVER said that the Pope has the ability for any new private revelation. The Church has ALWAYS taught that it’s purpose is to be the SERVANT of sacred scripture and tradition. It is protected by Jesus himself (Matt 16:12-19) from err in “interpreting” what has ALWAYS BEEN TAUGHT. The Catholic Church has NO RIGHT or claim to any rights of being able to “change” Christian doctrine. (and has never done so in 2000 years)

Peace.
 
No, I don’t have a statue of my mother.
I do have pictures of her, obviously, and if she’s away visiting relatives I often look at her picture and think of her, and even pray to her and for her, “Mom, I’m thinking of you and hope you’re thinking of me–God bless you”.

The statue is like a picture. . .it’s a representation. It’s not an idol.
God asked that his Ark be decorated with gold cherubim. The Jews didn’t worship the cherubim, did they?

I don’t worship statues, or pictures. I don’t think the statute or the picture is the real person. I don’t ask them to do miracles for me. I don’t expect the statue or the picture to talk back to me.
 
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Xavier:
We do not have the flesh of Christ in us.
How can you not read my scriptures and not know that we have Christ in us?
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Xavier,

This disappoints me .She didn’t say we didn’t have Christ in us. Xavier, I really thought you weren’tgetting it.
 
Scott Waddell:
God is no more offended when His creation (Mary) is praised than an artist is offended when his painting is praised.

Scott
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Hi
You should go this website www.e-sword.net and get yourself this Bible program. Go to the search tab and type in the different words you use like praise. I use this as my computer Bible. It has the King James version which is what the Catholic version is minus the 6 or 8 OT books that are in the Catholic version. In every instance the the Bible mentions praise it talks about praising God or warns NOT to pray to man. I don’t care what denom you are, this is a great Bible program.
In Him and Him only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
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Xavier:
This is where you lose us. And rightly so.
All honor all glory all praise be to you Lord.
You want to give Mary some of the glory that only God deserves.
Click to expand...
The Bible tells us to honor those who came before us in the family of God. This is all we are doing. You are trying to equate honoring a member of God’s family with “worshipping” an idol such as “Baal.”

There is a HUGE difference in erecting a molten cow and kneeling down to it to worship it thinking that your prayers are somehow going to be answered by this COW!

Honoring a saint, such as Mary, by kneeling down in front of her statue is no more idolatry than you looking at a photo of your grandmother and saying something like…“I miss you.” The point is that you aren’t expecting that statue of picture itself to do some sort of miracle or response to your request. The statues are merely reminders of the person, they are not thought of by Catholics as an idol.

You truly don’t understand Biblical context. The writers of the Bible are speaking to a group of people that are immersed in a world of paganism where people were worshipping inanimate objects, and not God. God is pleased when we give love and honor to the wonderful people in God’s family. If you know of someone who is “worshipping” anything other than God, then they aren’t Catholic.
 
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oudave:
Hi
I have one question for you, do you kneel before a statue and pray to your Mother like you do Mary? thats the difference we are trying to make. You can put as many fancy words around it as you want but kneeling before a statue is idolitry.
In Him and Him only, Dave.
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Stop misspelling “IDOLATRY”…it doesn’t give you any more credibility than you already lack.
 
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oudave:
Hi
I have one question for you, do you kneel before a statue and pray to your Mother like you do Mary? thats the difference we are trying to make. You can put as many fancy words around it as you want but kneeling before a statue is idolitry.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
In Him and Him only, Dave.
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oudave,

in this post you make an accusation of idolatry. The theological basis that supports this accusation rests entirely on a position of the body and it’s placement in the vicinity of a statue. Given the gravity of such a charge and the dignity due to the human person can you provide something more substantial? Can we for instance discuss what you mean by worship… or what catholics mean? before we go picking up two by fours to conk each other on the head?
 
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sfp:
First…
You need to understand that just because something isn’t “iterated” in the Bible, doesn’t mean that it isn’t true. The Bible itself teaches that there are many things that were taught by word of mouth by the apostles that weren’t written down. For the first 4 centuries, there was no “canon” of the new testament. If the Bible is the only sole rule of faith, then what do you say of those first few centuries of people?? The Bible is venerated by the Church, but is NOT the sole rule of faith…it NEVER WAS, and it doesn’t say this anywhere in the Bible!

Secondly, Jesus’s statement that ALL have sinned has exceptions (and notice the context is about ACTUAL sin, NOT original sin)…

Exceptions to “all” have sinned…
  1. Jesus himself
  2. Babies
  3. Severely retarded
All of the above are millions of exceptions to this “rule.” You must be conscious and knowing of your sin for it to be a sin. So, if there are millions of exceptions to his statement, then you must admit that he didn’t “actually” mean “all” in a literal sense. That being said, if there are exceptions, then why is it so ludicrous to believe what ALL of the Church fathers and Christians of the first 16 centuries believed about Mary’s sinlessness. Why is it so ludicrous to believe that the person carrying our SINLESS SAVIOUR was not preserved so herself, so as not to defile the Son of God in ANY WAY? WHY??? Can’t your God do that? I pity you, if your God is not capable of providing such an important, undefiled “womb” for His son.

Your last comment shows your mis-understanding of the Papacy and the authority of the Church. The Pope, nor the Church has EVER said that the Pope has the ability for any new private revelation. The Church has ALWAYS taught that it’s purpose is to be the SERVANT of sacred scripture and tradition. It is protected by Jesus himself (Matt 16:12-19) from err in “interpreting” what has ALWAYS BEEN TAUGHT. The Catholic Church has NO RIGHT or claim to any rights of being able to “change” Christian doctrine. (and has never done so in 2000 years)

Peace.
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Hi
This is out of your CCC. If the Muslims are included in the plan of salvation and they don’t believe that Christ is The savior, Then the leaders of your church must not believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Your leaders do and have made changes that are not in scripture. You can trust them if you want, but I surly wouldn’t.
In Christ and Christ only. Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon6.gif

**841 **The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
 
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Benadam:
oudave,

in this post you make an accusation of idolatry. The theological basis that supports this accusation rests entirely on a position of the body and it’s placement in the vicinity of a statue. Given the gravity of such a charge and the dignity due to the human person can you provide something more substantial? Can we for instance discuss what you mean by worship… or what catholics mean? before we go picking up two by fours to conk each other on the head?
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It does not matter the explanations that are revealed to our friend, Dave. His mind is made up. He has used the “statue” tract before, and he will use it again. Unfortunately, He cannot remove his reformist glasses for even a moment so that he may understand things objectively. But I will continue to pray for him—and so will our Blessed mother with all the angels and saints. 🙂
 
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oudave:
…If the Muslims are included in the plan of salvation and they don’t believe that Christ is The savior, Then the leaders of your church must not believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father…
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Why do you make stuff up? The Church teaches that Jesus is our one and only savior.

Again, you make things up when you don’t understand what the Church actually teaches. The Church emphasizes that God alone can give grace and ultimately eternal salvation to anyone he chooses, and sometimes this may be of people outside the Church, but ONLY according to His will, not withstanding our own understanding of why.

We are not to judge anyone (including the Church)…that’s His job.
 
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