Mary- other children

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sfp:
No problem at all, I just thought I’d throw that out there…you’re not the only one.

We do need to reel it in and make the connection between these concepts as it relates to the Blessed Mother, so that it’s not just meaningless “veering-off.”
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Hi sfp!
One thing to remember is that, as the Japanese say, “It’s impossible to pursue a deer and a rabbit.” That’s one very good reason to avoid getting off topic. There is plenty of evidence for all these topics and plenty of room here on this forum, but it makes it very difficult to follow the topical thread when so many side issues are raised and makes the thread much less effective.

One way I handle this is to copy and paste the post to it’s own thread so that it can be addressed as the focus of the discussion and study. I find that good questions get lots of responses and clearer answers this way.

Also…if you allow posters to hijack threads then soon you have nothing but a mess without answers that make any sense. It also is a favorite tactic of those who can’t handle the answers that they’re getting and use it to avoid the issue.
Just my :twocents: worth.
Pax vobiscum,
 
Church Militant:
Hi sfp!
One thing to remember is that, as the Japanese say, “It’s impossible to pursue a deer and a rabbit.” That’s one very good reason to avoid getting off topic. There is plenty of evidence for all these topics and plenty of room here on this forum, but it makes it very difficult to follow the topical thread when so many side issues are raised and makes the thread much less effective.

One way I handle this is to copy and paste the post to it’s own thread so that it can be addressed as the focus of the discussion and study. I find that good questions get lots of responses and clearer answers this way.

Also…if you allow posters to hijack threads then soon you have nothing but a mess without answers that make any sense. It also is a favorite tactic of those who can’t handle the answers that they’re getting and use it to avoid the issue.
Just my :twocents: worth.
Pax vobiscum,
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a catch 22…I understand. Problem is, no one follows the linked thread. (at least the ones who don’t want to know the answer)…they barely read the text in the actual thread, let alone actually “clicking” on a link!
 
mark a:
…You know, when a person stands back and looks at the believability of the whole mystery of God, believing Mary’s perpetual virginity is a relatively miniscule detail that seemingly wouldn’t get so much debate.
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It DIDN’T get any debate until well after the reformers came. But that doesn’t mean anything to these guys. Real shame.

There was a heck of a lot more argument over which books belonged in the Bible than Mary’s virginity. But then again, these guys think the Bible just fell straight from the sky…in perfect KJ english!
 
sfp said:
1. Where does the Bible say that the saints can’t hear us?

Where does the bible say we are to pray to “the saints?”
  1. No one ever said she is omniscient.
No but you say that she can hear and answer prayers. This is something that God alone can do!
  1. Do you have the ability to help others get to heaven? If so, then how is it that you are “more powerful” than her? She’s a LOT closer to Jesus than you and I, wouldn’t you agree?
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God can use me present the Gospel to others but I myself do not have the ability to get them to heaven. Only the Holy Spirit can convict their heart! 🙂
 
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Axion:
This is a seriously heretical statement since it denies the incarnation, and the divinity of Jesus. By denying both of these things, it also denies the atonement and the redemption. For only by God dying for our sins can the price of all the sins of the world be paid.

Can a man’s death pay the price of the sins of the entire world? No.

Was Jesus two separate persons as you allege - one who had no Father and no mother???

These are the pits of heresy and denial into which you fall by trying to demean the Virgin Mary. Such statements as you have posted above deny the very essentials of Christianity - The fact that God became man and died for our sins.

I fail to see how someone can deny anything so central to the Christian faith, and then dare to come to this forum and try to correct Catholics on their theological views!
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Only one word: :amen:

Maggie
 
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oudave:
Hi
I don’t dissagree that we should pray the Lords prayer, but the Bible doesn’t say ‘‘Pray this way’’ it says ‘‘Pray in this manner’’. The key word here is ‘‘manner’’ meaning form, custom or fashion. He doesn’t say to pray these exact words. This is also an outline to be used in prayer. He starts out addressing God the Father, then ‘‘Hallowed’’ meaning to be Holy. Then allowing Gods will in our life, thanking him for taking care of our needs, forgivness and helping us to stand up to temptation. God knows our nature and when we do things very repetitive its easy to lose interest, be honest with yourself, have you ever been thinking of something else when you pray the rosary? I know iv’e found it hard to concentrate sometimes when I pray . Besides God wants us to pray from our hearts, even though he already know what we need. We need to open our hearts when we pray. God will bless us if we do that.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
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Oudave,

you must have a defective translation. My translation says:

"Now once he was in a certain place praying and when he had finished one of the disciples said: Lord teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples. He said to them **“say this when you pray”…(Luke 11:1-4)

**There is nothing here that suggests anything about when to pray or even how to pray. What He is giving is the perfect prayer to the Father, nothing more and nothing less. This prayer is part of the Rosary.

Maggie
 
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John1717:
Dennis, with all due respect, the Catholic Church is chock full of the traditions of men! :yup:
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What you mean is oral Tradition that is Biblical.God Bless
PS Mary remained a virgin,and why don’t you start a thread with all your unfounded accusations:D
 
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John1717:
God can use me present the Gospel to others but I myself do not have the ability to get them to heaven. Only the Holy Spirit can convict their heart! 🙂
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These comments are continuing a subject that is off topic to the thread. If you want to discuss your topic then start your own thread.
 
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MaggieOH:
Oudave,

you must have a defective translation. My translation says:

"Now once he was in a certain place praying and when he had finished one of the disciples said: Lord teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples. He said to them “say this when you pray”…(Luke 11:1-4)

Maggie
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Just so there is no doubt, it is also translated the same way in the Douay-Rheims, King James, NIV, RSV, and NAB, just to name a few.
 
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John1717:
Dennis, with all due respect, the Catholic Church is chock full of the traditions of men! :yup:
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The subject that you desire to discuss by hijacking this thread is off topic. Go start your own thread.
 
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sfp:
Although I agree some of these posts are way off-topic, it is not reasonable to assume that we can discuss Mary’s perpetual virginity without also discussing very important issues that are essential to understand if one is to accept the church’s teaching on Mary…

especially topics such as…
  1. church and papal authority
  2. asking for the saints to pray for us
  3. the unbibilical concept of sola scriptura and the history of how we got the Bible
  4. History of the Church and the importance of knowing what the Church Fathers taught
  5. ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek languages
If these guys can’t understand or learn about the above concepts and realities, they are never going to accept the “possibility” of Mary’s perpetual virginity, since it is very easy to mis-interpret the meaning of God’s written Word if we rely on ourselves alone.

I don’t think we should be so quick to jump on them when they want to go there.

(you guys correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s just my opinion)
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:tsktsk: Well I have to correct you because you are wrong. The reason that we want them to keep to the topic is that they use this hijacking as a means of not continuing a discussion when they see that they have been soundly defeated by our knowledge of the Scripture.

All of the topics that you mention are important, but they need to keep to one topic at a time and not bring in material that is not relevant. In this thread we are discussing the error of Helvidius and the neo-Helvidians such as James White and Eric Svendsen who have been spreading the heresy to whoever will listen to it.
It is really quite simple. They need to learn the whole context of Scriptures and not the little excerpts that are fed to them by those who follow heresy. Once they get it, that nowhere in Scripture are the names of any other children of Mary mentioned, then they can move on. However, they behave like naughty disobedient children and they are fearful of reading the Scripture for themselves, so they cling to the lie that they have been taught.

Maggie
 
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sfp:
John, I presume that you believe you have the right (and maybe even the duty), to privately interpret sacred scripture, am I correct? That is, you believe that since the holy spirit resides in you and I, that this gives us all we need to interpret God’s word as we feel the Holy Spirit is guiding us, right?

The Holy Spirit only resides in TRUE believers!

If you agree with this, then how can you say that our interpretation is wrong? (i.e. the Catholic interpretation of Mary’s perpetual virginity). I mean, surely you don’t believe that the Holy Spirit has misguided so many people, right? …People who believe that they are being faithful to God, and who sincerely believe that they are doing exactly what they believe Jesus would want by giving his most blessed mother the honor she deserves.

The Holy Spirit cannot misguide anyone because it is against His nature.

Did you ever notice that Jesus never called Mary mother?

Or, surely you aren’t going to tell me that the holy spirit resides only in you, but not in all of us, right?

The Holy Spirit only resides in TRUE believers! And before you jump all over me, only God knows who they are!

After you comment on that, please tell me why not ONE Church Father taught your belief. Lack of infallibility has nothing to do with why history is important to understand this here. I mean after all…some of them LIVED with the apostles, so don’t you think that one of those apostles would have said something about Jesus having other uterine brothers? They would have happily set them straight, right?

Throughout the gospels, we see multiple references to Jesus’ “brothers”. One even mentions his “sisters.” These texts, taken in their natural reading, imply that Mary was the mother of an ordinary Jewish family. The RCC insists that this natural reading is incorrect. They correctly state that Hebrew does not have separate terms for “brother” and “cousin.” Therefore, the brothers are really cousins, and Mary was a virgin forever. Unfortunately for the Catholic Church, the gospels were all written in Greek and Greek does have separate terms for “brother” (adephos) (which literally means, the sharing of the womb) “sister” (adelphe) and “cousin” (anepsios). In order for the RCC interpretation to hold, it must deny the inspiration of the gospel writers. No other possibility exists. Of course, to deny inspiration would be to deny the canonicity of the gospels, and without them, Mary essentially disappears.

You stated that all the Church fathers believed Mary to be a perpetual virgin. This is simply untrue! We can confirm the fact that Jesus had siblings by looking at other near contemporary writings. Early church fathers Irenaeus, Helvidius and Origen all confirm the presence of Jesus’ natural “brothers”. Even this, however, is unimportant in the gospel plan, since the continued virginity of Mary is irrelevant to Jesus ministry, either on earth or in heaven.

It is worth tracing a bit of the history of this dogma. The earliest hints of this idea are found in second and third century Gnostic tainted writings such as the “Ascension of Isaiah” and the “Odes of Solomon.” Tertullian, a second century historian, discounts such notions by noting that Mary had children (plural). The early church fathers were not to be denied. Ambrose used an allegorical interpretation of Ezekiel 44:1-3 to support perpetual virginity. The issue was not settled for centuries, but when it was, Catholic tradition overruled scripture.

There are MANY other examples of our ability to back-up our belief in sacred scripture, most of which are in this thread, but according to scripture, Jesus gave his mother to John the apostle at the foot of the cross, whom we know was a distant cousin of our Lord. This would be shameful and unheard of in ancient oriental culture if Jesus had other brothers to care for her.

At the time Jesus’ siblings were unbelievers, that’s why Jesus entrusted John with her care!

please comment.

oh…p.s…
Do you know what the Bible says about private interpretation of scripture?

Yes, it tells us to be like the Bereans. Read Acts 17:11

Who’s your guide?
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The Holy Spirit!
 
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MaggieOH:
John1717

you are repeating the heresy of the Cathars and all of the others who follow the dualist formula that God cannot be matter.

You are also negating what is written in the Scripture:

"In the beginning was the Word:
the Word was with God
and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning
Through Him all things came to be,
not one thing had its being but through him.
All that came to be had life in Him
and that life was the light of men,
a light that shines in the dark,
a light that darkness could not overpower…

The Word was the true light
that enlightens all men;
and He was coming into the world.
He was in the world that had its being through him
and the world did not know Him.
He came into His own domain
and his own people did not accept Him
But to all who did accept Him
he gave power to become the children of God,
to all who believe in the name of him
who was born not out of human stock
or urge of the flesh
or will of man
but of God Himself
The Word was made Flesh
he lived among us
and we saw his glory,
the glory that is his as the only Son of the Father,
full of grace and truth…
It is the only Son, who is nearest to the Father’s heart
who has made Him known" (John1: 1-18)

This prologue confirms that Jesus is both human and Divine. The important verse is “The Word was made Flesh, he lived among us” and this goes hand in hand with the opening verses of the prologue: “In the beginning was the Word… and the Word was God”.

It is the Woman in Scripture, that is one who is named Mary who in fact bore “The Word made Flesh” in her womb. The Word as defined in John’s Gospel is Jesus, who is Son of God. This great mystery that we have before us is that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, and it is she who gave Flesh to the Son of God. Jesus is the “seed” of Mary’s womb.

Jesus is both human (born of a virgin) and Divine. You cannot separate the Divine soul from the human flesh, and as such Mary is the mother of the MAN-GOD. That makes her Mother of God.

Maggie
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No, that makes her the mother of Jesus who is God AND MAN! :banghead: You continue to focus ONLY on His Divinity and ignore His humanity!
 
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John1717:
The logic is sound but you apparently can’t grasp it!

It has been stated that Mary is not the mother of a nature, but a person. True enough. But the instant you say that Mary is the mother of God, you violate that distinction; for then you are affirming that Mary is the mother of diety but not humanity. In other words, God is merely descriptive of one of Jesus’ natures. The person of Jesus isn’t merely God, any more than the person of Jesus is merely man. Put it another way, Mary gave birth to a person who is *both *God and man. She did not give birth to the pre-incarnate form of the *Logos. *It is proper to call Mary “the mother of Jesus,” but not “the mother of God.”

By calling Mary “the mother of God” and not “the mother of man” there is an implicit denial of the humanity of Christ; or a divinization of his humanity–both of which are heresies. In other words, it affirms that Mary gave birth to *one *nature–namely, deity–stripped of all true humanity. The framers of the Council of Chalcedon recognized this danger. They did use the term *Theotokos *(“God bearing one”), but that is as far as any reference to Mary goes. They did not use Cyril’s supplementation *meter theou, *literally “Mother of God,” hence confirming that Jesus is one person bearing two natures. The text of Chalcedon called Mary “God bearer,” but not without qualification. The text of the document states, “…as regards [Jesus’] manhood, begotten…of Mary the virgin, the Theotokos…,” hence being very careful not to ascribe birth to Christ’s deity. Paul took this same view in Romans 1:3 where he says of Jesus, “son of David, according to the flesh.” Therefore, Chalcedon simply reaffirmed what Scripture had already made clear.

Mary can be the mother of God no more than you can be the mother of God! :nope:
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Sandra,

you have not learned a thing. You are only interested in repeating the heresies of both Nestorius and Arius as you continue to deny your own roots.

The reason that you do not get it is that you have not accepted who is Jesus as one who is the GOD-MAN. He is wholly human and He is wholly divine.

The prologue of St. John’s Gospel spells this out for you. That God took on Flesh and became Man. Jesus is God. The Word is God. Mary is the Mother of God.

Mary is, as it is written in the Scripture: “The Mother of my LORD”.

Maggie
 
John1717 said:
No, that makes her the mother of Jesus who is God AND MAN! :banghead: You continue to focus ONLY on His Divinity and ignore His humanity!
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Sandra,

you always loved to twist what other people are saying.

How can we make it any clearer than the fact that Jesus is both God and Man, and that the whole purpose of THEOTOKOS is to recognize not just the Divinity of Jesus, but also His humanity.

Those who deny that Mary is THEOTOKOS are in grave error on this one. The terminology is very specific and it is directed to who Jesus is, that is Jesus is not just a man, and Jesus is not just God. Jesus is the MAN-GOD.

You rely on the traditions of men, yet you deny what you are doing. Nothing has changed since you began your excursions onto the Internet has it. Instead of doing careful reading you continue to do selective reading. You deny the authority of the Catholic Church yet you accept the non-authority of the likes of James White, Dave Hunt and Eric Svendsen, even when these men are in gross error.

Maggie
 
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John1717:
The Holy Spirit!
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Every response that you gave is in grave error and off topic. You continue to know nothing and as far as the comment about the Holy Spirit is concerned, well that is off topic and will not be discussed here.

Maggie
 
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Benadam:
I would like you to demonstrate just one attribute or power that isn’t natural and human that Catholics give to Mary.
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Let’s see, how about the ability to hear and answer prayers?
****When we look in the Bible we find that **prayer is directed to God alone. To set up a person as a recipient for our prayers, no matter how great they are is making them out to be deity. Asking a saint to help and guide or protect is something only God can do. As someone once put it, why go to the branch office when you can go to the president. There is not one example of a Christian addressing prayers to Mary or saints, or those who are dead passing from our world. There is much to be said of those who practice Spiritism that use this method. Catholic defenders suggest that Mary is not part of “the dead”, since she’s spiritually alive in Heaven. The passages in Deuteronomy 18 and Isaiah 8 are referring to the physically dead, not the spiritually dead. There are hundreds of prayers and passages about prayer in scripture, and none of them instruct prayers to the dead. The scriptures forbid attempting to contact the dead, yet the Catholic Church teaches people to do it. **
**********This is not like asking someone on earth to pray for you, since they are physically here to converse. What the Roman Catholic is doing is asking those who are not physically here and are unable to see or affect the affairs of mankind on earth to do what is attributed to God only. :bowdown2: **
 
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MaggieOH:
Every response that you gave is in grave error and off topic. You continue to know nothing and as far as the comment about the Holy Spirit is concerned, well that is off topic and will not be discussed here.

Maggie
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Mattie, the only grave errors are those which you have been taught!
I’ve noticed that you have a double standard. When a non-Catholic goes “off topic” you are the first to bring it to their attention but you are quite often guilty of this same practice! 🙂
 
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John1717:
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dcdurel:
Not flawed at all.
Mary is the mother of God, because Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. But Mary is not the mother of all three persons of the Trinity. Mary is not the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit. But, since Jesus is God and Mary is His mother than Mary is the mother of God
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. Mary is also the spouse of God and the daughter of God, because Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the daughter of the Father.

Your fallacy is similar to this one:
"Jesus is God!

*God is a Trinity, *
Jesus died on the cross,
*God died on the cross. *

God the Father subsists within the Trinity,
God died on the cross
*God the Father died on the cross. *

Hmmm, "Does not compute." because God the Father cannot die. Therefore Jesus did not die on the cross OR only the humanity of Jesus died on the cross."

Either way, this leads to heresy. If Jesus did not die than we are not saved. If only the humanity of Jesus died, then Jesus is two persons, which is the Nestorian heresy, and again, we are not saved.

Once again, my friend, you are wrong! God, in His divinity, cannot be conceived and born any more than He can die. It cannot therefore be said of Mary that she bore God(and hence, bears the designation “mother of God”), any more than it can be said of the Jews that they killed God. Jesus in His humanity had a mother; Jesus in His divinity was "without father or mother; without genealogy, without begining of days or end of life!

Just where did you get this baloney about Mary being “the spouse of God and the daughter of God.” This is heresy!
The only heresy above is the statement that God was not conceived in the womb of Mary:

Let me repeat the words of St. John:

“In the beginning was the Word…
The Word was made Flesh
and lived among us”

The angel said to Mary, "Listen you are to conceive and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called SON OF THE MOST HIGH. The LORD GOD will give him the throne of HIS ANCESTOR, David; He will rule over the House of Jacob for ever and his reign will have no end. … The Holy Spirit will come upon you the angel answered and **the power of the most high will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be HOLY and will be called THE SON OF GOD " (Luke **1: 31-35)

It is written in the Scripture that when Mary conceived Jesus He was both Son of God and Son of Man. He was not two separate components. That is why we have the dogma THEOTOKOS, because it tells us of both the HUMANITY and the DIVINITY of Jesus, neither denying one aspect or the other.

The words that you write are so twisted that it is hilarious.

Maggie
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