Mary WAS sinless

[JoeyWarren]

Right, but… In Gen 3:16 the second part of the verse implies that there was not pain before: “in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

Does it really imply that? Was there pain before? How so? Did Adam and Eve have children prior to the fall? Or was it Adam and Eve’s knowledge of the pain is only evident by them witnessing the pain of animals gving birth?

 

[5pintLutheran]

Does it really imply that? Was there pain before? How so? Did Adam and Eve have children prior to the fall? Or was it Adam and Eve’s knowledge of the pain is only evident by them witnessing the pain of animals gving birth?

That’s exactly what I was trying to say! I agree with you on the first part, but don’t know about witnessing the pain of animals and such.
If you read the rest of what I was talking about, then you would see that I said that Adam and Eve had no children prior to the eating of the fruit. Scripture is silent about if they did or not, so I have to assume that they had no offspring prior to the fall.
I didn’t say that they had pain before. :doh2:

 

[JoeyWarren]

I am wondering why it is so important to show her to be sinless? Does it taint Jesus in someway if she was not?/quote] **I am wondering why it is so important to you to show her to be sinful? **

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**Probably not. **

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The Ark of the Covenant was created pure and undefiled via strict guidelines God imparted to Moses…why would he do any less for himself incarnate?

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[JoeyWarren]

That’s exactly what I was trying to say! I agree with you on the first part,

:extrahappy:

but don’t know about witnessing the pain of animals and such.

In order for them to understand the punishment by God to them, they must have some idea of pain of birthing. The only logical conclusion is to deduce they had witnessed the pain from the animals otherwise God’s words would have had no meaning to them.

 

[Good_Fella]

I do not know how you can assume anything about Mary being sinless from the bible.

Romans 3:21-23 NKJV
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:2-3
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Romans 3:10-20 NKJV
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
“ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit…
“ There is no fear of God before their eyes."

2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Isaiah 64:6 NKJV
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

Concerning Roman 3, 21-23: In his divine mercy, God declares the guilty innocent and makes them so. God does this apart from the law and not because of any merit on our part, but through the forgiveness of sins in virtue of Christ’s redemptive death for all those who believe. God’s merciful righteousness is manifested in the coming of our Saviour who inaugurates a new creation. Mary was implicated in the sin of Adam along with the rest of us, but she was redeemed by the merits of Christ’s death at the first instant of her conception.

And Mary said: “My ‘soul’ proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my saviour. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name. His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.” {Luke 1, 46-50}

Concerning Psalm 14, 2-3: We have a lament over ‘widespread’ corruption. It depicts the world as consisting of two types of people: “the fools” (the wicked) and “the company of the just” who are with God, also called “my people” and “the poor” (4-6). The Psalmist is expressing the hope that God will punish the wicked who are persecuting the just. David has God’s chosen people Israel in mind (7). He is praying that God will protect the nation from bad men, that the righteous people will prevail. When he exclaims that “everyone is bad” he means that the world is full of bad people, like Nabal ( “fool” in Hebrew) who refused to help David for selfish reasons. But David acknowledges that there are good or righteous people who love God nonetheless. And God is with the righteous who love him. Sorry, but David doesn’t hold the warped Protestant perception that every human being is downright evil to the core. :nope:

“He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart. He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly. The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty. He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy, according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and his children forever.”
{Lk 1, 51-55}

Concerning Romans 3, 10-20: Paul is pointing out that both Jew and Gentile share the common burden of sin as human beings, which explains the infidelity of Israel in spite of the nation’s privileged status guaranteed by God’s fidelity. Again, Paul is telling us that all human beings are implicated in sin by nature, but that does not necessarily mean that each individual is actually sinful without exception. Not all Jews were unfaithful in their covenant with God as a people.

And coming to her he said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.” {Luke 1, 28}

And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” {Luke 1, 42}

Concerning 2 Corinthians 5, 21: God has reconciled us to himself in Christ. This reconciliation is an act of justification apart from any actual sins we may commit (18-21), meaning if anyone were personally sinless, along with Mary and John the Baptist, it would hold no merit on its own, for we are justified and made righteous by the blood of Christ. Mary’s Immaculate Conception occurred because she was implicated in original sin. And it could not have happened unless He who was without sin was made sin for us.

“Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.” {Luke 11, 28}

Finally, concerning Isaiah 64, 6: God inspires the prophet to exhort Israel that all their “righteousness are like filthy rags”, since their sinful attitudes defile their deeds. The insincerity of their motives taint all their prayers, offerings, and sacrifices of praise. So God detests their external devotion and worship. Isaiah is condemning those Jews who were self-righteous and hypocritical. Not all individual Jews were included in this sentence. I fail to see how this passage applies to Mary, whose soul “magnified the Lord.” It’s important that we keep scriptural texts in their proper context and not twist them to suit our prejudices. :tsktsk:

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary. For you have found favour with God.”
{Luke 1, 30}

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate.”
Origen (A.D. 244)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[NDfan]

You and I are both born of women and both (I hope) free of original sin. In my case original sin was removed through baptism after I was born, in yours it may be via a ‘baptism of desire’ if not of actual water, in Mary’s it was by direct intervention from God at the moment of her conception.

This has been asked and answered many times. Of course it matters, we wouldn’t bother with it if it didn’t. It speaks to the very nature of Jesus Christ, one of the central issues that all Christians need to understand. It is essential to understand His humanity and its relationship to His divinity to understand how He could and did save us. And you can’t understand any of it without understanding Mary’s role in it, and how it all depends upon her sinlessness. For that matter it absolutely DOES taint Jesus, in fact it makes salvation impossible, if Mary is sinful.

We’re all agreed, I hope, that Jesus was perfect sinless man. We need to agree that He got that perfect sinless humanity from Mary alone.

This is absolutely incorrect. Saying Jesus got HIS sinless nature from Mary implies that Mary could have passed on the stain of sin to HIM. That’s simply impossible. Why? Because then that means GOD can be infected by sin from humans. Jesus was sinless because HE was GOD incarnate.

All one needs to do is read the NT and look at the multiple examples of how Jesus’ simple touch healed people and cleansed them of their sins. In Matthew 8 Jesus heals a leper by touching him. This is a forbidden act because according to the OT anyone touching a leper becomes defiled. Does Jesus become defiled by touching the leper? No!! Jesus cleanses and heals the leper. How is it that Jesus can even forgive sin if you claim that someone can infect HIM with sin?

Think about this before responding. No other human contributed to His humanity, and the Heavenly Father not being human, He didn’t contribute any of Jesus’ humanity either, so it must have been from Mary. Now for her to pass perfect sinless humanity to Jesus she had to possess it herself.

So are you claiming that GOD cannot create a human being?? That somehow GOD could preserve Mary from a sinless nature but for HIS own SON HE couldn’t? So GOD created Mary to be sinless because HE couldn’t create Jesus to be sinless?? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

More importantly if He was sinless only because of His divinity or only because the Heavenly Father interfered in some essential way in His human makeup, then He wasn’t fully human.

Why? The same could be said for Mary then. Mary wasn’t fully human then when she was preserved from sin. You’re claiming the same intervention GOD performed for Mary couldn’t be performed for Jesus because that would have taken away HIS human nature. Why wouldn’t that have affected Mary’s humanity?

Adam and Eve were created sinless, so it doesn’t take from anyone’s humanity to be created so. In fact both Mary and Jesus, to adequately fulfil their roles in the plan of salvation, had in the same manner to be created sinless.

Now you’re contradicting yourself. In your above statement you claim that if GOD interfered with Jesus HE wouldn’t have been fully human. Yet you claim that Adam and Eve were created sinless without having their human nature affected. Maybe you should re-examine your argument.

Now if He was not fully human - which He wouldn’t be if the Father interfered unduly in the process of His taking on that humanity - then His sacrifice matters not a bit to us humans. He couldn’t sacrifice for us nor atone for our sins nor properly mediate between us and the Father unless He WAS fully human as well as fully divine.

Again a major contradiction. First you say:

“Adam and Eve were created sinless, so it doesn’t take from anyone’s humanity to be created so.”

But then you claim:

“Now if He was not fully human - which He wouldn’t be if the Father interfered unduly in the process of His taking on that humanity.”

So it doesn’t take away from humanity to be created sinless as in Adam and Eve and Mary. But if Jesus was created sinless then HIS humanity would be taken away?

WOW that contradiction made me dizzy :hypno:

See you take out one card, in this case Mary’s sinlessness, and the whole house of cards falls down.

Your whole argument fell apart already so the house never got built.

PEACE

 

[AFollower]

Concerning Roman 3, 21-23: In his divine mercy, God declares the guilty innocent and makes them so. God does this apart from the law and not because of any merit on our part, but through the forgiveness of sins in virtue of Christ’s redemptive death for all those who believe. God’s merciful righteousness is manifested in the coming of our Saviour who inaugurates a new creation. Mary was implicated in the sin of Adam along with the rest of us, but she was redeemed by the merits of Christ’s death at the first instant of her conception.

And Mary said: “My ‘soul’ proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my saviour. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name. His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.” {Luke 1, 46-50}

Concerning Psalm 14, 2-3: We have a lament over ‘widespread’ corruption. It depicts the world as consisting of two types of people: “the fools” (the wicked) and “the company of the just” who are with God, also called “my people” and “the poor” (4-6). The Psalmist is expressing the hope that God will punish the wicked who are persecuting the just. David has God’s chosen people Israel in mind (7). He is praying that God will protect the nation from bad men, that the righteous people will prevail. When he exclaims that “everyone is bad” he means that the world is full of bad people, like Nabal ( “fool” in Hebrew) who refused to help David for selfish reasons. But David acknowledges that there are good or righteous people who love God nonetheless. And God is with the righteous who love him. Sorry, but David doesn’t hold the warped Protestant perception that every human being is downright evil to the core. :nope:

“He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart. He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly. The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty. He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy, according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and his children forever.”
{Lk 1, 51-55}

Concerning Romans 3, 10-20: Paul is pointing out that both Jew and Gentile share the common burden of sin as human beings, which explains the infidelity of Israel in spite of the nation’s privileged status guaranteed by God’s fidelity. Again, Paul is telling us that all human beings are implicated in sin by nature, but that does not necessarily mean that each individual is actually sinful without exception. Not all Jews were unfaithful in their covenant with God as a people.

And coming to her he said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.” {Luke 1, 28}

And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” {Luke 1, 42}

Concerning 2 Corinthians 5, 21: God has reconciled us to himself in Christ. This reconciliation is an act of justification apart from any actual sins we may commit (18-21), meaning if anyone were personally sinless, along with Mary and John the Baptist, it would hold no merit on its own, for we are justified and made righteous by the blood of Christ. Mary’s Immaculate Conception occurred because she was implicated in original sin. And it could not have happened unless He who was without sin was made sin for us.

“Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.” {Luke 11, 28}

Finally, concerning Isaiah 64, 6: God inspires the prophet to exhort Israel that all their “righteousness are like filthy rags”, since their sinful attitudes defile their deeds. The insincerity of their motives taint all their prayers, offerings, and sacrifices of praise. So God detests their external devotion and worship. Isaiah is condemning those Jews who were self-righteous and hypocritical. Not all individual Jews were included in this sentence. I fail to see how this passage applies to Mary, whose soul “magnified the Lord.” It’s important that we keep scriptural texts in their proper context and not twist them to suit our prejudices. :tsktsk:

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary. For you have found favour with God.”
{Luke 1, 30}

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate.”
Origen (A.D. 244)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

None of the scripture you have commentated on has anything to do with Mary’s sinlessness. Mary is blessed, that is fact. Mary being sinless, no scritpural backing.

 

[JoeyWarren]

None of the scripture you have commentated on has anything to do with Mary’s sinlessness. Mary is blessed, that is fact. Mary being sinless, no scritpural backing.

Here it is. What you’ve been looking for: It’s all in the Greek and the context of the Greek.

When Origen wrote about the annunciation to Mary (Luke 1:26-38), he remarked:
The angel greeted Mary with a new address, which I could not find anywhere else in Scripture… The angel says, “Hail, full of grace.” The Greek word is kecharitomene kecaritomene]. I do not remember having read this word elsewhere in Scripture. An expression of this kind, “Hail, full of grace,” is not addressed to a male. This greeting was reserved for Mary alone.The Greek word kecharitomene has fascinated people since ancient times, and for a number of reasons. What does it mean? How do we best translate it into other languages? What might it imply, beyond simple meaning, about Mary? This article will focus primarily on the first two questions: considering the meaning of the Greek word and its translation into English. The third question could not be fully answered without considering the larger scriptural context of the words of Gabriel, traditional Christian understanding and mariology, etc.

So what does kecharitomene mean?

direct address

When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are “Chaire, kecharitomene!” Caire, kecaritomene!]. Chaire (which means both “rejoice” and “hail”) is the salutation, like the word “hello” in “hello, Cathy!” The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name “Cathy” is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name “Mary,” but the word kecharitomene.

Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as “highly favored daughter.” Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is “daughter,” a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). “Daughter” is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn’t really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address “you” or “one” and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Here is the breakdown:

caritow

The root word is charitoo caritow], which means “to grace, favor.” On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of “grace” or “favor” in them.

ke

The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel’s greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.
This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be “you are certified to teach.” “Are” indicates a present state, “certified” shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.

mene

The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. “Passive” means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is “grace” and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that “someone graced Mary,” rather than “Mary graced.” Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied “someone” is God. “Participle,” in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but “to grace” is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.

 

[LilyM]

This is absolutely incorrect. Saying Jesus got HIS sinless nature from Mary implies that Mary could have passed on the stain of sin to HIM. That’s simply impossible. Why? Because then that means GOD can be infected by sin from humans. Jesus was sinless because HE was GOD incarnate.

Adam and Eve were totally sinless before the Fall too - or are you suggesting that God MADE them flawed and imperfect from the very beginning and that our sin nature is HIS doing and not theirs? Being sinless, were they also God incarnate? Of course not.

If Jesus was to be fully human and not just a mere (and useless as a mediator between God and man) facsimile of a human, then yes, He had to go through the complete process of taking on human flesh and human nature from His parent. Mary wasn’t, so God probably could cheat, just a little, (if you must think of it as that) in her case, but not Jesus’.

With Adam and Eve the process was necessarily different - there WERE no pre-existing humans for them to take on human nature from. They came, in terms of nature, flesh and spirit, because they had to, straight from the hand of God and no other. Apart from them, however, it is necessary, in order to be human, to take on all aspects of the human nature from biological parents.

All one needs to do is read the NT and look at the multiple examples of how Jesus’ simple touch healed people and cleansed them of their sins. In Matthew 8 Jesus heals a leper by touching him. This is a forbidden act because according to the OT anyone touching a leper becomes defiled. Does Jesus become defiled by touching the leper? No!! Jesus cleanses and heals the leper. How is it that Jesus can even forgive sin if you claim that someone can infect HIM with sin?

Jesus was of the New Covenant, no longer bound by the law of Moses. He was undefiled because these parts of the Mosaic law didn’t properly apply to ANYONE any more, which is why His Apostles could also eat without the ritual washing, and could themselves heal lepers and other ritually impure diseases when He sent them out on mission to do so. So these things have no bearing on whether or not He could take on sin nature from Mary.

Besides which, a more important question would be, not what would happen to JESUS if Mary was sinful, but what would happen to MARY if she, being sinful, were to bear God Himself incarnate within her.

We know that Uzziah died simply for touching the ARK of God’s presence, let alone getting any closer to Him! And we know that Paul tells us that WE can and will be sickened and die (literally as well as spiritually) if we eat and drink of Him in an unworthy way (ie with any sin on our souls). Neither of those are anything near as intimate and prolonged a contact with the Divine as Mary must have had bearing Him within her own body for nine months and letting Him take flesh from her. So she had to maintain a higher level of purity.

So are you claiming that GOD cannot create a human being?? That somehow GOD could preserve Mary from a sinless nature but for HIS own SON HE couldn’t? So GOD created Mary to be sinless because HE couldn’t create Jesus to be sinless?? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

He didn’t create the totality of Jesus. He DID create Jesus’ human body and human soul, but create these, HAD to, by the usual processes and not out of thin air. Jesus had to have a complete human nature.

Why? The same could be said for Mary then. Mary wasn’t fully human then when she was preserved from sin. You’re claiming the same intervention GOD performed for Mary couldn’t be performed for Jesus because that would have taken away HIS human nature. Why wouldn’t that have affected Mary’s humanity?

Of course Mary was still human - she had to be cleansed from original sin as we all do, it just happened earlier in her case so that she was a fitting vessel for God incarnate, so that HE wouldn’t have any contact at all with the taint of original sin.

Perhaps it would be easier for both of us if I simply make an analogy between the total purity of Mary’s body (which was virgin when Jesus was conceived, and had to be so in order for her child to also be the Son of God) and the total purity, from original and all other sin, that had also to be necessary for her soul in order that body and soul alike were fitted to both bear and raise (and teach by example) God incarnate.

Don’t forget her job didn’t end when she gave birth - it lasted all the days of her life. To be strong enough and capable enough for it she had to be just as pure in body and soul on her last day as on the day the Angel greeted her.

 

[Canto]

I am wondering why it is so important to show her to be sinless? Does it taint Jesus in someway if she was not?

It does not taint Jesus
If you like AC/DC and other hard rock music would you like someone saying you love the Carpenters?
Mary is sinless because of Christ, do you think God appreciates people saying she sinned?
The Catholic Church hands on the truth whether oral or written and one of the truths is that Mary was and is sinless

NOWHERE in the Bible do we read of Mary sinning or Christ rebuking His mum

But wait - Paul says ALL have sinned with no exception
a) maybe it was obvious to him and his readers that he didn’t mean Mary
b) maybe he didn’t literally mean all

God said he was going to put an end to ALL people yet Noah and his family survived Genesis 6:13

God filled Mary with grace (Lk 1:28,30)
Not because of her but because of Christ

If one is completely full of divine grace, is the grace imperfect as to allow sin to enter?

We are justified (meaning, freed from sin) by grace (Rom 3:24).
God can make all grace abound is us (2Cor 9:8).
He can know us before we are even formed in the womb (Jeremiah 1:5).
He is able to preserve us from sin (Jude 1:24).

So logically He could have saved Mary from sin and did. Isn’t God AWESOME!

 

[Good_Fella]

None of the scripture you have commentated on has anything to do with Mary’s sinlessness. Mary is blessed, that is fact. Mary being sinless, no scritpural backing.

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” {Luke 1, 42}

Mary is an exception. She is not an ordinary woman. She shares common ground with her offspring, not the offspring of the serpent, the devil. (cf. Gen 3,15). Thus Mary’s association with her Divine Son was not limited to his birth and childhood. She was blessed for being the first person to believe in Christ and for hearing and keeping the word of God (Lk 11, 27-28; Mk 3, 35). Mary advanced in her pilgrimage of faith together with her Son as he grew in wisdom and stature to the time she sentimentally shared in her Son’s passion and death at the foot of the Cross. I doubt that a woman who had conceived and borne a Divine Person and maternally related to the source of all grace, during the intimate course of their lives together, could possibly have rejected her Son’s grace and sinned. And she couldn’t have ever sinned before the Annunciation, for she was prepared by God as soon as He fashioned her soul to be the mother of our Lord. God chose Mary from all eternity knowing she would perfectly cooperate with his grace.

“So every good tree bears good fruit.” {Matthew 7, 17}

None of the scriptures you have cited support your belief that Mary was sinful. That’s what I have tried to show. We must not blow scriptural texts out of proportion. Our private judgments are passively infallible in so far they reflect the actively infallible Apostolic teaching authority of the visible Church. Jesus founded his Church on the Apostles and their legitimate successors who have been commissioned by the divine authority of our Lord to teach the Gospel until the end of time. Hence, Scripture must be interpreted in light of apostolic Tradition in order to convey the true meaning of the Word of God. According to the divinely guided judgment of the apostolic teaching authority of the Catholic Church, Mary’s sinlessness is implicity revealed in Scripture; yet the Church had already believed in Our Lady’s purity of heart, mind, and soul before the scriptures were ever compiled and infallibly made canon. The New Testament texts are a literary form of expression of faith. Luke’s opening prologue addressed to Theophilus indicates that the written texts are simply a confirmation of an already existing lively faith, traditionally held among the faithful who were taught and governed by the apostles and their appointed successors (Timothy succeeded Paul ad finitum). Luke’s first two chapters are a microcosmic compendium of the Church’s four Marian dogmas. The early Church Fathers were aware that Mary was sinless by the passing on of traditional beliefs which originated in the primitive Church in Palestine. What had been orally taught at that time was put down in writing (more or less explicitly) and could only be interpreted by the Apostolic teaching authority in light of that tradition from which the NT texts had sprung.

“We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.”
St. Augustine

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[joe370]

AFollower — If you could truly and factually know from God, whether or not Mary was protected from the stain of sin, born in a state of grace; which would you prefer: (1) a sinful mother of god or (2) a sinless mother of god?

Just curious…

And what was your answer to Jujujellybean’s question?
“I will ask again: who here thinks themselves worthy to carry God’s only son???”

 

[joe370]

Why believe Mary was forever virgin and sinless?

Both these beliefs have been held by the Church since the earliest times. In the case of Mary’s perpetual virginity, this belief is based on Holy Scripture:

"How can this be since I know not man?" (Luke 1:34, KJV).

Mary is not asking for instructions in sexual reproduction, she no doubt has a good idea of how babies are made. She is, at this point in her life, married to Joseph although they do not yet live together. The Scriptures tell us that the angel said “you will be with child” (Luke 1:31), not “you are with child.” The angel is talking about a future event and the normal result of sexual relations in marriage after she and Joseph lived together would have been a child. Mary’s statement in Luke 1:34 makes no sense unless there is a vow of lifelong virginity involved, even in marriage.

The Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament contained the word of God (the tablets containing the commandments). Likewise, Mary’s womb was the Ark of the New Covenant which was used to hold the Incarnate Word of God.

Now let’s look at the issue of Mary’s sinless nature. Consider that when the angel addresses Mary at the annunciation, the greeting is almost a name change:

"Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (Luke 1:28, KJV).

Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) means “beloved.” In biblical times a person’s name reflected what they were. Name changes have great theological significance in the Bible and this is almost as if her name is being changed from “beloved” to “thou that art highly favored.” Since this is before Jesus has been conceived, to what is the angel referring? No doubt to her singular devotion to God, forsaking all earthly distractions and desecrations, and the fact that she had been conceived without sin in preparation for this event.

Being conceived without sin does not mean that Mary had no need of a redeemer. In fact, like every descendant of Adam, Mary had vital need of a redeemer. Mary’s freedom from original sin was an unmerited gift of God in that she was redeemed by Christ at the moment of her conception. It is at the moment of conception that God creates the soul and hers was created in a state of sanctifying grace. If you had the opportunity to create your mother, wouldn’t you make her perfect in every way? This is why there are the doctrines of the perpetual virginity and immaculate conception of Mary.

Jesus refers to Mary’s sinless nature when He addresses her as “woman” in John 2:4 and 19:26. Today, one looks at Him addressing her in this manner and thinks this is disrespectful or that He is admonishing her. In fact, Mary was not the first sinless woman, Adam’s wife was also created sinless. When she was first created, Adam named her “woman” (Genesis 2:23). It was after the fall, when she was no longer sinless, that her name was changed to “Eve” (Genesis 3:20). By referring to Mary as “woman,” Jesus is recognizing her sinless nature. Like I said earlier, name changes in Holy Scripture are important.

If you (Protestants at this thread) believe the Catholic Church acted infallibly by codifying the infallible 46 books of the old and the 27 books of the new testament at the end of the 4th century, why not believe C.C. on other matters; after all, Jesus endowed his established church with the infallible holy spirit as her Counsellor and promised to be with that church forever. “…And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth…” Paul admonished the early christians when he said, "…oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” and tells them, “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;“And are built up you on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone Jesus also said, “That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matt. 16:18 “He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:17 With just a couple of passages, we see that Jesus established a church built it on Peter, the apostles and the prophets, said it would be infallibly guided by the holy spirit in perpetuity! Every century until his second coming…

 

[wesso14]

well where in the Bible that it say she doesnt sin? there a no grounds to say Mary was sinless for she is part of the human race which the Word of God says there is no righteuos,not even one;Rom 3:10. Mary is with out doubt equal to every person.She is not to be worshipped. Unfortually the catholic church has been twisted with other pagan roman and greek religions when it was accepted by the roman empire all those years ago.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

well where in the Bible that it say she doesnt sin?

Where does the Bible say she did sin?

 

[MelanieAnne]

well where in the Bible that it say she doesnt sin? there a no grounds to say Mary was sinless for she is part of the human race which the Word of God says there is no righteuos,not even one;Rom 3:10. Mary is with out doubt equal to every person.She is not to be worshipped. Unfortually the catholic church has been twisted with other pagan roman and greek religions when it was accepted by the roman empire all those years ago.

The Bible says Mary is “full of grace”. Mary was sinless because she was full of the grace of God. God made her that way. God can do that. There should be no disagreement that God has that power, right? So yes, in every human way she was just like us, but God filled her with His grace and with that grace, she was free from sin.

Catholics do not worship Mary. People who believe that have been misled. If someone has told you Catholics worship Mary you might want to ask yourself why that person told you something false.

“Not 100 people hate the Catholic Church; but there are many who hate what they think is the Catholic Church.” Archbishop Fulton Sheen

 

[ufamtobie]

I do not know how you can assume anything about Mary being sinless from the bible.

All are sinful:

Romans 3:21-23 NKJV
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:2-3
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Romans 3:10-20 NKJV
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
“ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

  “ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
   “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
    “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    And the way of peace they have not known.”
    “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jesus is the only one that is sinless.

2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The bible says that Jesus had no sin so he could become sin for us. Not that Mary had no sin so that she could birth Jesus. I really cannot understand why Mary’s rightousness is even in question? We are all justified by Christ’s death, not by our deeds. We cannot be justified by our deeds because our rightousness is like filthy rags to the Lord.

Isaiah 64:6 NKJV
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

Explain to me two things. Why Mary’s rightousness even matters? And if it does, how does it stack up against the scripture I just laid out?

Hi there Afollower,

Do you believe God can do all things, that nothing is impossible to him?

Now regarding the Ark of the covenant. In that Ark was the word of God (Jesus) now that Ark could not be touched by anyone, if one touched the Ark one would fall dead it had to be kept clean with no contamination of sinful hands.

Now regarding Virgin Mary, did she not carry the Word (Jesus) In her womb. Now the Ark (Virgin Mary) now she to had to be clean and have no contamination of original sin, thus therefore the Living Ark(Virgin Mary) was sinless not one ounce of sin God Created her in a special way Unlike you and I who are sinners. Virgin Mary filled with the Holy Spirit said:

Luke 1: 48-49 Yes, from this day forward all generations will call me blessed, for the Lord has done great things for me. Holy is his name,

Afollower, now what did Virgin Mary mean by "THE LORD HAS DONE GREAT THINGS FOR ME… I Stress the Word THINGS not thing, but Great Thingssssssss…

One of the Many things that our Lord bestowed upon Virgin Mary is that of being born without sin (SINLESS) She had to be facts show this in the old testament regarding the old Ark now Virgin Mary Being the New Living Human Ark was not touched by sin as well, for the word made flesh (Jesus)was living inside her.

Virgin Mary gave Jesus his flesh so if Virgin Mary was a Sinner Jesus would be contaminated with original sin and we all know the TRUTH that Jesus is wthout sin that means that his Mother Mary is without sin as well.

Can anything unclean bring about somthing clean… NO!

Therfore Virgin Mary is Clean (Sinless) by the Grace of God
brought something Clean(sinless) through his Divinity Jesus Christ.

Ufamtobie

 

[joe370]

For all the protestants at this thread, I have one question; why would the catholic church define the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception if they weren’t truly inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so? Was there a nefarious hidden agenda, or possibly a conspiracy to divert peoples attention from the bible, the same bible codified by the catholic church? Also if you can provide me with the official or unofficial documentation that proves the catholic church teaches or admonishes its members to worship the Blessed Mary, I will convert to your denomination!

If you (Protestants at this thread) believe the Catholic Church acted infallibly by codifying the infallible 46 books of the old and the 27 books of the new testament at the end of the 4th century, why not believe C.C. on other matters; after all, Jesus endowed his established church with the infallible holy spirit as her Counsellor and promised to be with that church forever, “If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.” “…And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth…” “As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” Which church was Jesus speaking to when he spoke these words; It definitely wasn’t a protestant church! Paul admonished the early christians when he said, "…oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” and tells them, “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;“And are built up you on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone Jesus also said, “That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matt. 16:18 “He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:17 With just a couple of passages, we see that Jesus established a church built it on Peter, the apostles and the prophets, said it would be infallibly guided by the holy spirit in perpetuity; not infallibly guide until 4th century, the 10th century or the 16th century but through every century until his second coming…

 

[jpdrums]

“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Rom 3:23)

You can not get much clearer than that.

Also if you have noticed, the mainstream catholic bible does not use the description “Full of grace” any more but “highly favored one.” I am not saying that Mary was not important because she was but the bible also uses the same description when talking about Stephen. (Read Acts 6) Stephen was a sinner and yet he is described with the same words as Mary.

2 Peter 1:12-15 This is pretty much saying that Peter would not let us down and restate things the people already know. So why would he not mention Mary living without sin. If the argument is oral tradition Peter here says even though you already know I will keep reminding you. What would be a better way of reminding Christians of things they need to know than to write them down?