Mary worship? I don’t think so

[Vico]

…, when I say worship I do not mean revere or respect, I mean it in terms of an unhealthy and sinful idolatry.

I think those making such accusations judge by appearances rather than intention or actual words used.

We reserve the worship called adoration for the Holy Trinity, but the worship called veneration for the Virgin Mary and the other saints.

 

[drjsp]

veneration can bleed into worship and certainly look like worship from the outside.

Indeed. I was brought up Missouri Synod Lutheran and we didn’t pay much attention to Catholic theology and never knew much about it, but a couple of the Lutherans with whom I still associate are convinced about falsehoods of Catholicism, yet haven’t taken the time to properly look into what the Catholic Church really teaches.

 

[twf]

I was told many time, by many life time Catholics prayers to Mary and saints was not a requirement to be an active participating Catholic.

prayers to someone other than God can not be an obligation, at least not based on the meaning of the word obligation.

Active participation in Mass is an obligation…that involves invoking Our Lady and the saints at certain points. So I disagree… a Catholic can’t simple plug their ears and hum when Our Lady or other saints are honoured/invoked in the liturgical texts of the Mass. Outside of Mass, we are not obliged to say any particular prayers or devotions, unless assigned as a penance. I’m not convinced that all priests would be willing to change a standard “Hail Mary’s” penance if asked…but maybe I’m wrong on that.

 

[Anesti33]

twf:

And what Catholic hasn’t been given a Hail Mary as a penance in the confessional? Our assigned penance is definitely obligatory

Me, I ask not to be give a penance that requires a prayer to Mary or saints… the priest who heard my confession just gave me a different pray for penance. I wasn’t told the Hail Mary prayer was a requirement for absolution.

I was told many time, by many life time Catholics prayers to Mary and saints was not a requirement to be an active participating Catholic.

prayers to someone other than God can not be an obligation, at least not based on the meaning of the word obligation.

Sorry, but you were misled.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

[971] " All generations will call me blessed ": "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

One major example: If you ever attend Mass where a Confiteor is said, then you’ve prayed to Mary and all the saints, and it’s not optional for you.

 

[twf]

That’s exactly what I was trying to get across. Private devotions to the Mother of God are greatly encouraged by the Church, but not binding. Public devotion to the Mother of God, in the liturgy, is obligatory for all Catholics in as much as active participation in the liturgy will involve public devotion to Her.

 

[annad347]

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done
and in what I have failed to do…

Yes, I have and it’s not a prayer to Mary.

Many times I ask a question the biggest reply I get is, ask your priest… I did, they said it’s not an obligation… I can be respectful to someone without saying a prayers to them.

It’s not one of the 5 precepts of being an active Catholic, not one of the 7 Sacraments or one of God’s 10 Commandments.

Say them if you want, it’s not an obligation at least not based on the definition of the word obligation.

 

[Fauken]

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done
and in what I have failed to do…

Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.
Therefore I ask the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, all the angels and Saints, and to you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

 

[annad347]

Still not a prayer to Mary…unless you are also praying to your brothers and sisters

 

[Fauken]

Still not a prayer to Mary…unless you are also praying to your brothers and sisters

What would you define as a “prayer to Mary”? We are asking her, along with the entire Church, both Triumphant and Militant, to pray for us to God for forgiveness. The Confiteor is a prayer.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Some folks here seem to be conflating prayer and worship. “I pray thee”, doesn’t mean “I worship thee”.

 

[quaestio45]

Except that in the history of the Church, more miracles have occurred through intercession of saints than directly from God. It pleases God to grant us favors through intercession. I do not question God just accept his will.

More power to you mate, but I do need something more to be convinced of such myself; justification found in something of right reason.

I remember one of the epistles saying our prayers aren’t answered because we ask wrongly, we ask to satisfy our desires.

So for me I ask a Saint to pray on my behalf, thinking they’ll pray on my behalf, out of love. Pure love. Perfected love.

Then God isn’t granting my desire be satisfied, but to satisfy the love of His Saint.

So is it because I have not sufficient love, and because an aspect of my prayers is driven by desire (even if it can be categorized as righteous desire), God does not answer my prayers as effectively as those of the saints? But why? Were the desire righteous, it seems to me that there would not be need of saints to intercede, correct?

God could have set it up that way… but He chose not to.

Fair enough, but the thing I’m having a problem is being shown that it is of that particular way at all. Consider me saying “I’m very skeptical of the idea of evolution” and you were to say “Well, thats just the way it was set up”, do you think that would be any good way of satisfying my skepticism? No, because I doubt the idea, not really the why behind the idea.

I think it is important to remember that we don’'t have to invoke saints to be faithful catholics. We don’t have to live out a devotion to Mary either. They are gifts that some of the faithful understand and use more/better than others. I feel really comfortable asking saints to pray for me, but I am very careful to ascribe any after effects to God. Always returning the glory to Him. While I love Mary as mother, I am careful there too to always be looking for how she is pointing me at her Son.

I understand your position. I’m just in confusion as to why praying to anyone other than God would somehow benefit me more then just going to God.

That is a Protestant opinion.

Perhaps it is. And this is a catholic forum. Thats why I am positing my opinion here; to see what the Catholic point of view and response is.

 

[Anesti33]

So, let’s say you have AT&T wireless service for your cell phone, and you have a billing question. Just call up the CEO, yeah?

 

[twf]

Fair enough, but the thing I’m having a problem is being shown that it is of that particular way at all.

Show in what regard? From Scripture and tradition? The lived experience of the Church? Its a little different than your example of evolution, because we’re talking about matters of faith, not empirical science.
In terms of the general concept of God mediating salvation through His creatures…Scripture is full of examples. A very obvious one is the very existence of the apostles. Why didn’t the risen Christ instantaneously appear to every person on the planet and reveal Himself? He could have. Yet He chose to send forth the apostles…to preach through them…to bring salvation to people through their mediation and intercession. This applies to both preaching and to the forgiveness of sins:

He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:22-23)

Perhaps more profoundly, St. Paul is clear that the servants of God, through their sufferings, mediate the salvation of Christ to others:
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church…(Col 1:24)

Now these examples don’t directly relate to the subject at hand…the intercession of Our Lady and the saints in heaven…but I’m trying to lay the groundwork by showing that God wills to work through His creatures to accomplish His mission. Regarding the intercession of the saints in heaven, St. John saw this in Revelation:

And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints… (Rev 5:8).

 

[twf]

God wills to work through His creatures to accomplish His mission. Regarding the intercession of the saints in heaven, St. John saw this in Revelation:

Its the same concept, just on a different level. We ask our brothers and sisters on earth to intercede for us. We also ask Our Lady and the saints in heaven to intercede for us.

Perhaps your issue is more around praising or venerating Our Lady and the saints. This too is obligatory in as much as it does happen during the Mass, the public prayer of the Church. On Marian feasts, the text will include antiphons in her honor.

But as I said previously…private devotion to Our Lady and the saints is not obligatory…but it is encouraged.

 

[quaestio45]

I see… so @twf, we may say that it is evident that God would answer prayers more greatly depending on who prays and by the many who pray because he’s shown that he prefers to work through the creatures of his creation more than he prefers to simply be “as direct as possible”, correct? So, if God prefers working through creatures for things such as revelation, it would only make sense that he also would prefer that we ask others to aid our prayer as well, yes? Am I getting it right?

 

[annad347]

What would you define as a “prayer to Mary”?

Any prayer that is directed specifically to Mary.

The Confiteor prayer is to God an obedient action to confess our sins to Him and each other… something God wants us to do, confess and to forgive each other.

 

[annad347]

So, let’s say you have AT&T wireless service for your cell phone, and you have a billing question. Just call up the CEO, yeah?

If the CEO said ask for anything faithfully in my name and it shall be yours… then yes, I’m going directly to the CEO.

 

[Pixle_Catholic]

@annad347

Are you Catholic?

 

[Anesti33]

What if the Church told you there is a great cloud of witnesses, waiting to intercede for your every need if you but ask? You callously discard that advice as useless?

 

[Fauken]

The Confiteor prayer is to God an obedient action to confess our sins to Him and each other… something God wants us to do, confess and to forgive each other.

And it also asks the Saints to pray for us, including Mary.