Mary worship? I don’t think so

[Tommy999]

What if the Church told you there is a great cloud of witnesses, waiting to intercede for your every need if you but ask?

A Catholic on CAF once told me that Mary and the saints pray for me whether I ask them to or not.

You seem to be saying that a person needs to specifically ask before they intervene.

I am confused. What is official Church teaching on whether Mary and the saints pray for non-Catholic Christians?

 

[Justin_Mary]

So is it because I have not sufficient love, and because an aspect of my prayers is driven by desire (even if it can be categorized as righteous desire), God does not answer my prayers as effectively as those of the saints? But why? Were the desire righteous, it seems to me that there would not be need of saints to intercede, correct?

I don’t think it’s so much about “need” as God’s preference. He wants you to pray for me. He wants me to pray for you. & when we pass from this life to the next He’ll expect me to continue to pray you & you for me.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I understand your position. I’m just in confusion as to why praying to anyone other than God would somehow benefit me more then just going to God.

He’s got a soft spot for humility.

 

[BT3241]

I have struggled with my faith but one thing I can’t get past is sister Lucia and her testimony of Fatima - she went on to be a nun and stood by her revelation until her death - she was a very intelligent person and I think very trust worthy - but to each their own - I cannot write it off as false. I have read all her stuff and find it fascinating

 

[Anesti33]

I would ask you to be intellectually consistent. Since baptized Christians are saints in the Communion of Saints, and you don’t want to ask their help, then stop asking your family to pray for you. Don’t ask priests and deacons to pray for you; certainly don’t arrange any Mass stipends, lest the whole assembly and the priest pray for your intention. Don’t post to the forums–you and I have been praying to each other since our conversation started; I thought that you don’t like that.

Be intellectually consistent here, because you have stated you don’t need the saints when you have God. It’s going to be awful lonely with just you ‘n’ God, though.

 

[annad347]

Perhaps your issue is more around praising or venerating Our Lady and the saints.

actually, my issue is the difference between to and for… tiny words but have huge meanings for me. please don’t explain them, respect that I know what they mean.

Are you Catholic?

baptized yes

What if the Church told you there is a great cloud of witnesses, waiting to intercede for your every need if you but ask?

Thank you, but there are others who have needs greater than mine, please intercede for someone more deserving. God Bless.

You callously discard that advice as useless?

I ignored the post where you told me I was being misled by the church I attend, now you’re saying I’m being callous… please stop being insulting, because I choose to give my prayers directly to God… that’s kind of harsh.

And it also asks the Saints to pray for us, including Mary.

It’s still a prayer to God asking for forgiveness… never said we shouldn’t pray for each other. I pray for people all the time… it’s something we should be doing automatically.

I would ask you to be intellectually consistent. Since baptized Christians are saints in the Communion of Saints, and you don’t want to ask their help, then stop asking your family to pray for you. Don’t ask priests and deacons to pray for you; certainly, don’t arrange any Mass stipends, lest the whole assembly and the priest pray for your intention. Don’t post to the forums–you and I have been praying to each other since our conversation started; I thought that you don’t like that.

I don’t but I do pray for people, not just because they ask me too, God wants us to pray for each other.

It’s going to be awful lonely with just you ‘n’ God, though.

You’re kidding right?

FYI I never said it was useless, if they help bring you closer to God why would I think that’s useless, I just said I don’t say them… I don’t exercise either.

If I’m saying prayers to someone without my knowledge during church service, then God will guide me to do what is best… He led me to the Catholic church I attend. I trust Him, so I trust the priests there.

 

[Isearch]

@annad347 Nevertheless, we as Catholics have a duty to revere all who had already entered heaven. And we do have to revere the Blessed Virgin more than any other creature. This is the teaching of the seventh ecumenical council. The old confiteor prayer used to compel everyone to ask God, the Blessed Virgin, the Archangel Michael, and all the saints in heaven for their forgiveness for our sins. And, since we pray what we believe, we must give the holy ones their due reverence.

But only God is to be offered a physical sacrifice on altars.

 

[Vico]

Pixle_Catholic:

To be rid of any confusion, when I say worship I do not mean revere or respect, I mean it in terms of an unhealthy and sinful idolatry.

It’s possible. Catholic’s I’ve spoke to when I asked them about prayers to Mary, say that some times veneration prayers to Mary can boarder line on worship.

There is adoration worship reserved for the Holy Trinity (called latria), and veneration worship for the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints (called hyperdulia for Mary and dulia for other saints).

Modern Catholic Dictionary, Worship:

Acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. …

Divine worship includes:

• recognizing the infinite perfection of the Holy Trinity, called adoration,
• praying to or the asking for help of the Holy Trinity,
• sacrificing or the offering of something precious to the Holy Trinity.
• Example 1: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever. Amen.
• Example 2: We praise you, we bless you, we thank you, O Lord, and we pray to you, our God, pray to you, our God.

Whereas veneration worship includes:

• honoring the angels and saints for their sanctity,
• asking the angels and saints for intercession before the Holy Trinity,
• imitating the angels and saints love and service of the Holy Trinity.
• Example 1: “Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”
• Example 2: “Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom his love entrusts me here, enlighten and guard, rule and guide me. Amen.”

 

[Justin_Mary]

I don’t but I do pray for people, not just because they ask me too, God wants us to pray for each other

Do you think he’ll want to stop praying for others when you get to heaven?

 

[Justin_Mary]

I’m posting this from the Little Office of The Blessed Virgin Mary. >

Ant. 1 The Virgin Mary received blessings from the Lord and reward from the God who saved her. (E.T. Alleluia)

Psalm 8
The majesty of the Lord, the dignity of man

How great is your name, O Lord our God, *
through all the earth!

Your majesty is praised above the heavens; *
on the lips of children and of babes
you have found praise to foil your enemy, *
to silence the foe and the rebel.

When I see the heavens, the work of your hands, *
the moon and the stars which you arranged,
what is man that you should keep him in mind, *
mortal man that you care for him?

Yet you have made him little less than a god; *
with glory and honor you crowned him,
gave him power over the works of your hands, *
put all things under his feet.

All of them, sheep and cattle, *
yes, even the savage beasts,
birds of the air, and fish*
that make their way through the waters.

How great is your name, O Lord our God*
through all the earth!

Glory be to the Father and to the Son *
and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now, *
and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Ant. 1 The Virgin Mary received blessings from the Lord and reward from the God who saved her. (E.T. Alleluia)

 

[annad347]

The old confiteor prayer used to compel everyone to ask… The Blessed Virgin, the Archangel Michael, and all the saints in heaven for their forgiveness for our sins. forgiveness for our sins.

Which of their commandments have I broken, which of their laws have I not obeyed…how have I sinned against them, that I need to ask them for forgiveness? Maybe there’s a reason the Holy Spirit led those who changed the words, the need to change the words.

Nevertheless, we as Catholics have a duty to revere all who had already entered heaven.

The only way to show honor and respect to someone is to pray to them?

Whereas veneration worship includes…

If veneration worship is something the Holy Spirit within is telling you to do, that prayers to them will bring you closer to God please follow, anything that brings you to God is a blessing.

But again, I ask, is the only way to honor and respect someone is saying prayers to them?

Do you think he’ll want to stop praying for others when you get to heaven?

I don’t know what God will want from me in heaven, but if it’s to say pray for others I will do so gladly, I gladly pray for people now.

 

[Vico]

…
But again, I ask, is the only way to honor and respect someone is saying prayers to them?
…

The answer is no, based on the earlier post, included below.

Veneration worship includes:

• honoring the angels and saints for their sanctity,
• asking the angels and saints for intercession before the Holy Trinity,
• imitating the angels and saints love and service of the Holy Trinity.

 

[annad347]

The answer is no, based on the earlier post, included below.

exactly so what am I doing wrong?

 

[Fauken]

Which of their commandments have I broken, which of their laws have I not obeyed…how have I sinned against them, that I need to ask them for forgiveness? Maybe there’s a reason the Holy Spirit led those who changed the words, the need to change the words.

It hasn’t been changed. It was only shortened. The Confiteor both pre and post 1962 asks Mary and all the Saints in Heaven to pray to God in our behalf for forgiveness of our sins.

“Therefore I ask the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, all the angels and Saints, and to you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.”

“Therefore I beseech the blessed Mary, ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the Saints, and you, Father, to pray to the Lord our God for me.”

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The answer is no, based on the earlier post, included below.

exactly so what am I doing wrong?

I could not say, for I do not know so much about the Latin Mass liturgical prayers. Since I am Byzantine Catholic I am familiar with those prayers used in the Divine Liturgy, and there are specific prayers to saints for intercession, of which one may be the Theotokos (Mother of God).

Some of many possible examples:

Toparion for June 29 (Holy Day of Obligation) Feast of the Apostles Peter and Paul
Leaders of the apostles, teachers of the world, intercede with the Lord of All to grant peace to the world and abundant mercy to our souls.

Kontakion for March 25 Annunciation of the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary
O Theotokos, valiant defender, you servants offer you hymns of victory in thanksgiving, for you have delivered us. But since you have invincible power, free us from all peril, that we many exclaim to you: Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride.

And also the Magnification used in the Divine Liturgy (Hymn to the Theotokos):

It is truly proper to glorify you, O Theotokos, the ever-blessed, immaculate, and the mother of our God. More honorable than the cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim; who, a virgin, gave birth to God the Word, you, truly the Theotokos, we magnify.

Toparion November 8, The Synaxis Of The Holy Archangel Michael And All Angelic Powers

Leaders of the heavenly armies, although we are unworthy, we always beseech you to fortify us by your prayers and to shelter us beneth the wings of your sublime glory. Watch over us who bow to you and cry out fervently: Deliver us from danger, for you are the commanders of the powers on high.

 

[Mark121359]

Catholic’s I’ve spoke to when I asked them about prayers to Mary, say that some times veneration prayers to Mary can boarder line on worship.

Then those Catholics are badly misinformed! It’s impossible that the Church would sanction prayers directed towards Mary that would be considered worship in the sense of the word that they are implying. I’ve long since come to the conclusion that there is a good number of Catholics who know very little about their Catholic Faith, and much less when it comes to what the Church teaches about the Virgin.

 

[annad347]

Then those Catholics are badly misinformed! It’s impossible that the Church would sanction prayers directed towards Mary that would be considered worship in the sense of the word that they are implying.

Its not the church is sanctioning it, it’s people tend to go that way on their own. I’m sure if their priest knew a person was were crossing the line from veneration to worship they would advise them correctly.

but it is possible to cross that line… with anything.

 

[Allie1]

. Often, we as Catholics are accused of worshiping and idolizing Mary above God. But, as I thought on this, I began to wonder, is it even possible to worship Mary above God

There is an ancient heresy called collyridanism. This heresy existed between 350-450.
This heresy did, worship and deify Mary. The followers of this heresy actually offered up bread as a a sacrifice to Mary, as if it was the Eucharist.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/collyridianism

Researching this more. I have found a modern day group that does outright worship Mary. And they openly acknowledge Mary as their deity. They call her Mother God. They are a strange feminist group. they do not claim to be Catholic. Although they do use Catholic iconography. I’m afraid to post a link to them to show what they believe

 

[Justin_Mary]

I don’t know what God will want from me in heaven, but if it’s to say pray for others I will do so gladly, I gladly pray for people now.

I’m sure God wants you to pray for others. Both now & in eternity. Likewise, for the Saints who came before us & are now with Our Lord.

Only makes sense to ask them to pray for us now, just like your friends ask you to pray for them. & if ever you were in need you would ask your friends to pray for you.

Personally I take great comfort knowing there are religious out there dedicated to praying on our behalf.

I’m also in formation of a lay group dedicated to a life of prayer in allegiance to Jesus.

 

[annad347]

there is a difference between praying to… and praying for?