Mary?

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Since I do not think such authority was given, I am willing to deny ALL dogmas pronounced by your Church.
Now we know where you stand. Since oyu deny all dogmas of the Catholic Church, which is your perogative to do so as a non-CAtholic, please explain how Jesus is God and so is God the Father without there being two gods.
 
Now we know where you stand. Since oyu deny all dogmas of the Catholic Church, which is your perogative to do so as a non-CAtholic, please explain how Jesus is God and so is God the Father without there being two gods.
That has nothing to do with your dogmas, that is all in Scripture. Are you daring to say that we cannot learn the Truth from Scripture, but need your man-made dogmas?
 
That has nothing to do with your dogmas, that is all in Scripture. Are you daring to say that we cannot learn the Truth from Scripture, but need your man-made dogmas?
No. However, you cannot have the understanding of the Trinity that you have unless it is clarified. Show me in Scripture where Jesus said that he is God. Show where it says that GOd is Triune. Show where the Trinity is clearly explained.

Mormons can defend their position on the Trinity from Scripture, as can modalists. The Church had to show what it was and was not.

Again, how do you understand the Trinity if you deny the dogmatic pronunciations of the Church?
 
Very easily…

I.CHRIST IS GOD

***** He is called God in the N.T.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was GodJohn 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained [Him.]

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Romans 9:5 (NASB) whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Titus 2:13 (NASB) looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 1:8 (NASB) But of the Son [He says], "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.

1John 5:20 (NASB) And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB) For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

***** OT descriptions of Yahweh are applied to Christ in NT

-Attributes

Micah 5:2 (NASB) “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, [Too] little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”

-Work of Creation

John 1:3 (NASB) All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Isaiah 42:5 (NASB) Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk in it,

-Worship

Exodus 20:3 (NASB) "You shall have no other gods before Me.

Exodus 20:5 (NASB) "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

John 5:23 (NASB) in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Hebrews 1:6 (NASB) And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Philippians 2:10 (NASB) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,

11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

***** The Name Yahweh (LORD) = Christ

Matthew 3:3 (NASB) For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet, saying,

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make ready the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight!’”

Isaiah 40:3 (NASB) A voice is calling, "Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God

John 12:41 (NASB) These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

Isaiah 6:1 (NASB) In the year of King Uzziah’s death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.

1Peter 3:15 (NASB) but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always [being] ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

Isaiah 8:13 (NASB) "It is the Lord of hosts whom you should regard as holy. And He shall be your fear, And He shall be your dread.

Ephesians 4:7 (NASB) But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”

Psalms 68:18 (NASB) Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captive [Thy] captives; Thou hast received gifts among men, Even [among] the rebellious also, that the Lord God may dwell [there.]

Hebrews 1:6 (NASB) And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Psalms 97:7 (NASB) Let all those be ashamed who serve graven images, Who boast themselves of idols; Worship Him, all you gods.

Hebrews 1:10 (NASB) And, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands;

11 They will perish, but Thou remainest; And they all will become old as a garment,

12 And as a mantle Thou wilt roll them up; As a garment they will also be changed. But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end."

Psalms 102:25 (NASB) "Of old Thou didst found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Thy hands.

26 "Even they will perish, but Thou dost endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing Thou wilt change them, and they will be changed.

27 "But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end.
 
continued…

II. GOD IS ONE

Deuteronomy 4:35 (NASB) "To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him.

Deuteronomy 4:39 (NASB) "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (NASB) "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!

Isaiah 45:21 (NASB) "Declare and set forth [your case;] Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.

22 "Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 44:6 (NASB) "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

John 17:3 (NASB) "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

III. CHRIST IS DISTINCT FROM FATHER

Psalms 2:7 (NASB) "I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee.

Matthew 27:46 (NASB) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”

John 5:32 (NASB) "There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the testimony which He bears of Me is true.

John 5:37 (NASB) "And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

*****Certain Formulas in the NT link Christ with the Father and the Spirit

Matthew 28:19 (NASB) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

1Corinthians 1:3 (NASB) Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Corinthians 13:14 (NASB) The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

2Thessalonians 2:16 (NASB) Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,

17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

Galatians 1:3 (NASB) Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ,
 
I need to look at these quotes again perhaps, but on first reading I cant see a single mention of the Holy Trinity. Or a single unequivocal statement that Father, Son, and Holt Spirit are ONE.
 
I need to look at these quotes again perhaps, but on first reading I cant see a single mention of the Holy Trinity. Or a single unequivocal statement that Father, Son, and Holt Spirit are ONE.
you need a pope to draw those conclusions yourself? It IS pretty obvious, so yes, you do need to look at them again.
 
you need a pope to draw those conclusions yourself? It IS pretty obvious, so yes, you do need to look at them again.
Oh, I see. It’s pretty obvious eh? From these quotes? You’re kidding me right?

No, it not OBVIOUS at all. It’s inferred. What we have here is Catholic Church teaching on the Trinity accepted hook line and sinker.

And yet, Catholic Church teaching on Mary … ??? You DEMAND a SPECIFIC PUBLIC STATEMENT on any matter to do with Mary - you reject it out of hand because it doesnt suit YOU for some reason.

Oh well.
 
Oh, I see. It’s pretty obvious eh? From these quotes? You’re kidding me right?

No, it not OBVIOUS at all. It’s inferred. What we have here is Catholic Church teaching on the Trinity accepted hook line and sinker.

And yet, Catholic Church teaching on Mary … ??? you reject it out of hand because it doesnt suit YOU for some reason.

Oh well.
I dont recall posting any papal proclamation in there, I thought it was all Scripture. And for most of us who dont need a pope to do their thinking for them, it is VERY obvious. But I get it, since all the Scriptures were provided, you have to try and find fault with it another way. Sorry, that wont wash.
 
I dont recall posting any papal proclamation in there, I thought it was all Scripture. And for most of us who dont need a pope to do their thinking for them, it is VERY obvious. But I get it, since all the Scriptures were provided, you have to try and find fault with it another way. Sorry, that wont wash.
The scripture you quoted does NOT give you the concept of the Holt Trinity. Tell me how:

Titus 2:13 (NASB) looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;

Exodus 20:3 (NASB) "You shall have no other gods before Me.

John 12:41 (NASB) These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

Romans 9:5 (NASB) whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

gives you the Holy Trinity??? You quoted these as scriptural proof to the Trinity. So where do they point to the Trinity?
 
The scripture you quoted does NOT give you the concept of the Holt Trinity. Tell me how:

Titus 2:13 (NASB) looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;

Exodus 20:3 (NASB) "You shall have no other gods before Me.

John 12:41 (NASB) These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

Romans 9:5 (NASB) whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

gives you the Holy Trinity??? You quoted these as scriptural proof to the Trinity. So where do they point to the Trinity?
you conveniently left Matthew off the list…

19
Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." NAB

Yep, pretty clear to me. Nice try though.
 
I. But I get it, since all the Scriptures were provided, you have to try and find fault with it another way. Sorry, that wont wash.
Afraid you don’t get it at all, actually.

God, the Trinity, was taught and defined by the Catholic Church. The reformers kept the idea, so now you keep it.

Mary, as taught by the Catholic Church, was rejected by the reformers. So now you reject it.

It’s that simple really. No original thought or honest enquiry required on your part at all.

who do you have a bigger problem with by the way, Mary, or the Pope???
 
you conveniently left Matthew off the list…

19
Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." NAB

Yep, pretty clear to me. Nice try though.
Sorry, it’s NOT clear at all, three personas for sure - NOTHING in your quote says they are ONE, if it didm it would read something like:

…baptizing them in the three sacred persons who are ONE in the ONE TRUE GOD, Father, Son and Spirit…
 
Afraid you don’t get it at all, actually.

God, the Trinity, was taught and defined by the Catholic Church. The reformers kept the idea, so now you keep it.

Mary, as taught by the Catholic Church, was rejected by the reformers. So now you reject it.

It’s that simple really. No original thought or honest enquiry required on your part at all.

who do you have a bigger problem with by the way, Mary, or the Pope???
You REALLY dont want to see it, but thats ok. Your error has no bearing on my faith.
 
Sorry, it’s NOT clear at all, three personas for sure - NOTHING in your quote says they are ONE, if it didm it would read something like:

…baptizing them in the three sacred persons who are ONE in the ONE TRUE GOD, Father, Son and Spirit…
SO…Christ was a pagan, telling people to baptize in the name of three gods? Do you realize how ridiculous your reasoning is yet? Why do you fight the Scriptures? Why do hang on to man and not the Word of God?
 
SO…Christ was a pagan, telling people to baptize in the name of three gods? Do you realize how ridiculous your reasoning is yet? Why do you fight the Scriptures? Why do hang on to man and not the Word of God?
Stop diverting and answer me HOW does the joiner ‘‘AND’’ between Father, Son and Holy Spirit PROVE the Trinity !!!

Father AND Son AND Holy Spirit.

Who taught you that this means they are One.
 
Stop diverting and answer me HOW does the joiner ‘‘AND’’ between Father, Son and Holy Spirit PROVE the Trinity !!!

Father AND Son AND Holy Spirit.

Who taught you that this means they are One.
Logic taught me…answer my question…was Christ then a pagan, teaching three gods? Dont duck the question, since you are the one opening the door on the point.
 
I’m sorry. That was an unfair question. And too hard for you to answer.

I’ll tell you shall I??

The Catholic Church and Her Early Church Fathers Defined the Dogma of The Trinity for You.

You’re welcome 👍
Now, if you only applied that wonderful logical brain of yours that you claim to have, you’d be able to see Mary as Catholics do in the Gospel as well. But then again, the Catholic Church has defined the dogma of Mary for you too.

Why do you accept one and refuse the other I wonder?

Pride?

Arrogance?

Intellectual dishonesty?
 
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