Mary?

[guanophore]

Didn’t Christ say those who obeyed God were his brothers, sister, and mother? Therefore, ALL have “special access”.

What a great grace! Imagine being privileged to enjoy the same special status of Mary!

I showed no misunderstanding, rather, I showed accurate Scriptural understanding.Christ alone is all the advocate we need with the Father, period. And do you really think I would do research on Catholic.com? I suspect that information would be a wee bit slanted.

You show a great deal of misunderstanding.

Yes, I really do think you would do research on Catholic.com. Of course it is slanted! If you have not come here to learn what the Catholic Church teaches, then you have come to the wrong place.

I dont agree with your assessment of Catholic teaching for Christians for 15 centuries.

This has become abundantly clear

I do think that Catholic teaching developed over time and moved further and further away from true Christianity, in to a Pharisee like (in terms of legalism), Stoic movement.

I think you would have to believe such things, in order to justify to yourself separating from the church that Jesus founded. You are a true child of the Reformation!

Such doctrines were NOT formulated by the ancient Church.

It does not seem to you that they were because you are suffering from a deficient access to Apostolic Teaching.

Since the NT writings were many years after Christ, you would think these teachings would have been included if they were so widely held as you claim. Yet, they are not. Do you wonder why?

We find them, because we read the Scriptures from the point of view of those who wrote them. That is why we understand them differently than you.

The NT was written by Catholics. Everything in it represents Catholic Teaching.

Because man says so.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said “he who listens to you, listens to me.”?

Since I do not think such authority was given, I am willing to deny ALL dogmas pronounced by your Church.

Wow. This must mean you think that the Apostles were mighty misled. It also means that you have no foundation for your faith, since the NT was produced by the authority you think does not exist!

very nice work, but it still does not disprove anything I have stated.  You mention a few Scripture lines, but an Immaculate Conception and Assumption they do not make.  Again, why wasnt this included in Scripture that was written after the fact, actually, at the time of a few of the other references you provided?

Scripture was not intended to include everything. Most of it was written prior to the dormition of the Theotokos. We see the IC in the words of greeting from the angel Gabriel.

The problem is, you confuse veneration and honor with dogma.

No, avenger, we are not confused. I think you may be talking about yourself!

I am not in any way trying to detract from Mary’s unique role in salvation history, but you need to keep it accurate. The Catholic church, in declaring its dogmas and in its out of balance emphasis on Mariology does not do this. They constantly skirt the edge of the envelope and fliort with co-Redemptrix status. Indeed, this is often implied, if not stated directly.

Since you suffer from so much vast ignorance of Catholicism, why not focus on what has been declared already, instead of that which has not yet occurred.

That has nothing to do with your dogmas, that is all in Scripture. Are you daring to say that we cannot learn the Truth from Scripture, but need your man-made dogmas?

Scripture IS the teaching of the church. Yes, we dare to say that people can be very misled by reading scripture, especially when separated from the Apostolic Tradition which produced it.

You are wrong about Dogmas. they are from the HS.

you need a pope to draw those conclusions yourself? It IS pretty obvious, so yes, you do need to look at them again.

No, but we do need the Apostolic Teaching. The Trinity is obvious to us because we read the scripture with a Trinitarian mindset. Arians did not, Gnostics did not , an the modern children of them, Mormons, read the very same scriptures we do, and see not the Trinity.

And for most of us who dont need a pope to do their thinking for them, it is VERY obvious. But I get it, since all the Scriptures were provided, you have to try and find fault with it another way. Sorry, that wont wash.

WE do not find fault with the Scripture, as it is entirely Catholic. We find fault with your interpretation of it, and you are right, it won’t wash.

Your statement about the Pope “doing thinking” for the faithful belies an authority problem, as well as a misunderstanding about the role of the Pope.

you conveniently left Matthew off the list…

" Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

It is advisable, avenger,whenever one sees the word “therefore” in scripture, to look and see what it is 'there for". In this case, Jesus prefaces His words with “all authority has been given”. He is “therefore” sending His Apostles forth with the same authority that He has been given. He gives to them the authority to teach all that he has commanded. Earlier you said that no such authority has been given, but clearly it was.

 

[avenger]

You really just like to hear yourself, is that it? You add nothing but your opinions, and I am supposed to drop everything and convert because of it? Really, come on.

 

[Good_Fella]

"These truths have gradually been explicitly revealed through the medium of Tradition and the teachings of the Magisterium…’

You mean distorted, dont you?

The private interpretation of the scriptures by competent souls like yourself lead to distortions of the word and a disunity of faith. The heresies of Arianism and a divided Protestantism are the most poignant examples in Church history. Thus Scripture cannot be subject to private interpretation. Much of what has been written is implicitly revealed and thereby unclear. Private individuals cannot infallibly interpret the scriptures. Jesus recognized the need for divinely appointed Church leaders to teach us what is contained in the written word. For this reason he commissioned his apostles to preach the Gospel, and he founded his one universal Church on them, who in turn appointed their successors ad finitum with the divine authority invested in them by Christ originating from the Father. Jesus promised that he would not leave his apostles orphans until his return at the end of this age, so with apostolic succession in mind he sent the Paraclete, the Spirit of truth, to guide the Church in all truth and preserve her from teaching error. Our Marian dogmas and doctrines comprise infallible teachings that originally come from the Holy Spirit and are mediated by divine mandate through the universal episcopacy.

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, also wrote to you speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
2 Peter 3, 15-16

The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.” Philp ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in.
Acts 8: 30-31

“True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which they have handed down that Church (not the Bible: my emphasis) which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of the Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor suffering curtailment in the truths which she believes; and it consists in reading the word of God without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4, 33:8 (inter A.D. 180-199)

The deposit of faith consists of both Scripture and Tradition. Scripture is preceded by Tradition and is infallible because the latter is infallible. Scripture must not be interpreted divorced from Tradition and in contravention of the teachings of the Church which Paul describes as “the pillar and foundation of truth” (cf 1 Tim 3:15; Jn 16:12-13).

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
2 Thessalonians 2, 15

Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of events that have been fulfilled among us, just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us, I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may realize with certainty of the teachings you have received.
Luke 1, 1-4

" ‘If I do not find it in the ancient Scriptures, I will not believe the Gospel;’ on my saying to them, ‘It is written,’ they answered, ‘That remains to be proved.’ But to me Jesus Christ is in the place of all that is ancient…and the faith which is by him are undefiled monuments of antiquity."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadelphians 8,2 (A.D. 110)

“Now the cause, in all the points previously enumerated, of the false opinions, and of the impious statements or ignorant assertions about God, appears to be nothing else than the not understanding of Scripture according to its ‘spiritual meaning’, but the interpretation of it agreeably to the mere letter. And, therefore, to those who believe that the sacred books are not the compositions of men, but they were composed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit…and that they have come down to us, we must point out the ways of interpreting them which appear correct to us, who cling to the standard of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ according to the succession of the apostles.”
Origen, First Principles, 4, 1:9 (A.D. 230)

:tiphat:

 

[ralphinal]

Had poor Avenger not gone and gotten himslef banned, I would have pointed out that we do not follow the Mosaic food laws for two reasons. First, Jesus said that what comes out makes us impure, not what goes in. That, however, was not dogmatic. Peter had a dream that what God made cannot be called impure. The Council of Jerusalem, in Acts, has the Apostles deciding that Gentile converts need not comply with the Old Covenant. This is a clear example, in Scriptures, of an Autoritative Church acting with binding Authority under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Now, if you deny that the Church can pronounce dogma, you deny both Scriptures and History.

Oh, by the way, it is the same reason mass is on Sunday. The early Church decided that to be the day.

 

[guanophore]

Which “Catholics” wrote the Bible? Christians, yes. Catholics, thats a stretch.

I believe you think this is a stretch because you don’t realize that all Christians were Catholics for 1000 years.

You really just like to hear yourself, is that it? You add nothing but your opinions, and I am supposed to drop everything and convert because of it? Really, come on.

I like representing the Teachings of the Catholic Church. I admit that my opinion does leak through as well. No, actually, I would not expect a persons such as yourself, with such hostility toward the Catholic faith, and Catholic people, to drop everything and become one of the ‘enemy’ short of a Saul > Paul type conversion. May God bring it on!