Mary

[Milliardo]

John 17 3:

Wrong again bucko! The Roman Catholic church is not The Church founded by Jesus Christ!

Wow! You say that without much evidence now, just like you’ve been debunked time and again in your Peter theory.

 

[Milliardo]

John 17 3:

Luke11:27,28
“And it happened , as He spoke these things that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You , and the breasts which nursed You.’”
But He said, “More that that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.”

Luke 8:21 “But He answered and said to them " My mother and brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

It seemed to me that Jesus was distancing Himself from Mary and was saying that following the word of God was more important than having biological ties

.

Your second premise is quite true: biological ties are not the point of Jesus. He is, however, far from distancing Himself from Mary: as the passages show, He was in fact indirectly praising her, as she was indeed blessed for keeping His word in her heart as we see in Luke.

I now know that it is possible that, at the time, Mary did not fully believe in Jesus.

Bunk. Mary was more faithful than most of His Disciples. She was the few who was with Him at the Cross. Again, go all the way back to the first few chapters in Luke, where it’s said she kept all the things He said and did in her heart. More than anything, she believed Him than anyone else.

 

[Church_Militant]

John 17 3:

Wrong again bucko! The Roman Catholic church is not The Church founded by Jesus Christ!

Just because YOU say so and in spite of a bishop of the early church that was a close friend and disciple of St. John? You apparently know the truth if it came up and roared in your face.

The biggest hole in all your discussions is the phrase you used :
“it seemed to me…” All I can say is that it’s your carnal understanding that failed and that you should’ve had the God-given common sense to ask your priest or maybe even (God forbid!) call these folks here at CA and get a real Catholic Answer instead of listening to someone who had ana-C agenda. You follow the teachings of men…your own.

 

[deb1]

I don’t think that Jesus was distancing himself from Mary when He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” I think that he is saying what is most commendable about Mary. Her faith and obedience. To take any other meaning from the passage is to indicate that Jesus didn’t mind publically insulting his own mother. I just can’t imagine our saviour doing such a thing.It would also negate Jesus and Mary’s relationship as shown through in the second chapter of John. It was at his mother’s request that he committed his first miracle.

 

[deb1]

John 17 3:

When I was Catholic I wasn’t sure what to think about this passage. When it was read at Mass, the priest would never give a logical explanation. It seemed to me that Jesus was distancing Himself from Mary and was saying that following the word of God was more important than having biological ties. I now know that it is possible that, at the time, Mary did not fully believe in Jesus.

How could you gather that she didn’t believe fully in him after reading the second chapter of John. In case you don’t have your bible ready, the second chapter of John begins with the wedding festival where Jesus commits his first miracle. Mary was so certain that he would commit a miracle that she told the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them. The amazing part is that in verse four, Jesus doesn’t even appear to be agreeing that he would do anything. IN fact, he said that his hour had not yet come. Mary must have had considerable influence for Jesus to decide to change the water into wine at her request.

 

[mercygate]

John 17 3:

When I was Catholic . . .

The character of your questions indicates that if you were ever Catholic, you left the Church before you had the faintest idea what the Church teaches. Perhaps it would help us to address your issues if you were to couch your questions in a matrix of your personal experience. E.g., “When I was Catholic, at the age of 16, I never thought about this but when a Protestant confronted me with this Scripture, I had no answer so I assumed he must be right and I left the Church.”

A Catholic not already annoyed by something else the Church teaches might have thought: “Gosh! That sounds really questionable, but here it is in the Bible! I wonder what the Church has to say about it. I’d better ask somebody who knows.”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I wonder what the Church has to say about it. I’d better ask somebody who knows."

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Give the man a cigar. . .

No wonder they call pride the chief of the 7 deadly sins. I would venture to say that 99% of those Catholics who leave the faith never once considered finding out what the Church actually taught, from somebody who knew. Rather, they relied, in their pride, on their own “feelings” about it, or they listened to someone else and thought “that sounds better to ME”.

 

[Della]

John 17 3:

Let’s get back to the topic!

Luke11:27,28
“And it happened , as He spoke these things that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You , and the breasts which nursed You.’”
But He said, “More that that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.”

Luke 8:21 “But He answered and said to them " My mother and brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

When I was Catholic I wasn’t sure what to think about these passages. When read at Mass, the priest would never give a logical explanation. It seemed to me that Jesus was distancing Himself from Mary and was saying that following the word of God was more important than having biological ties. I now know that it is possible that, at the time, Mary did not fully believe in Jesus. This seems to be a valid position since at the time, Jesus could have said, “You are right and in fact, this woman is full of grace and the most blessed woman to ever walk the face of the earth. In fact, you should refer to her as Co-Redeemer, Mediatrix, Advocate and Mother of God. You should go through her rather than Me and put your trust in her intercession.” But instead, Jesus downplays Mary’s status as His mother and implies that His new spiritual family is more important than His biological family.

You and Edwin have completely misinterpreted this passage according to what you were told by your Protestant tradition, which you accepted because it fits into your theological construct, not because it is true.

The key to understanding this incident is knowing who is being praised by the woman in the crowd. Contrary to what you’ve been told and many erroneously believe the person being praised by the woman is not Mary but Jesus.

What does she say? That Mary is blessed to be the mother of Jesus. Why does she say this? Because of the words and actions, not of Mary, but of Jesus. She is merely saying: “How wonderful it must be to be the mother of so great a Son!” in her own cultural way and mode of expression.

Now, why does Jesus then say, in essence: “better yet to be one who keeps the word of God”? Because he wants the woman to understand that he, Jesus, is that one who keeps the word of God, as do those who follow him. Remember that Jesus often spoke of himself in the third person because he was humble and lowly of heart. He was trying to focus attention on the Father and keeping the Father’s word. That was what was important to him.

By making a controversy revolving around competing ideas about Mary’s place in salvation history out of a simple passage like this one we miss Jesus’ words and intention and so, unwittingly, subvert the very Gospel message he brought to us all. We have to remember that the focus of the Gospels is on Jesus, not on Mary or Peter or John or anyone else. They must be read with that in mind in order to understand what their authors are trying to convey to us about him.

 

[John_17_3]

Milliardo:

Wow! You say that without much evidence now, just like you’ve been debunked time and again in your Peter theory.

Please tell me, where did the church begin? Was it in Rome?

 

[Church_Militant]

John 17 3:

Please tell me, where did the church begin? Was it in Rome?

This is off topic…open a thread on it if you wish to ask questions that are not relevent to the OP’s topic.

 

[John_17_3]

Milliardo:

John 17 3:

Luke11:27,28
“And it happened , as He spoke these things that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You , and the breasts which nursed You.’”
But He said, “More that that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.”

Luke 8:21 “But He answered and said to them " My mother and brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

Your second premise is quite true: biological ties are not the point of Jesus. He is, however, far from distancing Himself from Mary: as the passages show, He was in fact indirectly praising her, as she was indeed blessed for keeping His word in her heart as we see in Luke.

Bunk. Mary was more faithful than most of His Disciples. She was the few who was with Him at the Cross. Again, go all the way back to the first few chapters in Luke, where it’s said she kept all the things He said and did in her heart. More than anything, she believed Him than anyone else.

If Mary was as you present her please explain Luke 2:48-50. Here Mary did not understand what Jesus was saying when He said that He must be in His Fathers house!
Now read Mark 3:21 and jump over to verse 31. Here is says that His family came to take charge of Him because they (including Mary) think He is out of His mind! Now read verses 32-35. I get a much different picture of Mary than the one you have painted!

 

[John_17_3]

Church Militant:

Just because YOU say so and in spite of a bishop of the early church that was a close friend and disciple of St. John? You apparently know the truth if it came up and roared in your face.

The biggest hole in all your discussions is the phrase you used :
“it seemed to me…” All I can say is that it’s your carnal understanding that failed and that you should’ve had the God-given common sense to ask your priest or maybe even (God forbid!) call these folks here at CA and get a real Catholic Answer instead of listening to someone who had ana-C agenda. You follow the teachings of men…your own.

Isn’t this off topic?

 

[Church_Militant]

John 17 3:

Milliardo:

If Mary was as you present her please explain Luke 2:48-50. Here Mary did not understand what Jesus was saying when He said that He must be in His Fathers house!

Now read Mark 3:21 and jump over to verse 31. Here is says that His family came to take charge of Him because they (including Mary) think He is out of His mind! Now read verses 32-35. I get a much different picture of Mary than the one you have painted!

Okay…this is lame, but I’ll answer your allegations.

So Mary and Joseph did not understand…so what. No one alleges that they were all comprehending or all knowing…and this is no indictment of their faith. This proves nothing except that you are grasping at straws…

Your passage in Mark proves even less…so his friends went to get Him thinking He was mad…that does not tie in with verse 31 at all. It doesn’t say anything about Mary in verse 21.

As for your allegations that Jesus was putting down His mother I would say that you read something into this passage that is not there at all. ther is nothing in that passage that impugns the Blessed Virgin in any way, but He uses that to make a point about becoming part of the Body of Christ. That’s all these verses say and all they imply.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Church_Militant]

John 17 3:

Isn’t this off topic?

Yeah ya drew me off that time…but no more…Do ya think that’s appropriate? You don’t seem to care about the rules much. That’s what make the discussions work…but you attempt to change topics on the same thread any time we give you answers that you can’t handle. It’s pretty obvious to most of us… ya wanna make any more wise remarks about it?

 

[John_17_3]

Church Militant:

John 17 3:

Okay…this is lame, but I’ll answer your allegations.

So Mary and Joseph did not understand…so what. No one alleges that they were all comprehending or all knowing…and this is no indictment of their faith. This proves nothing except that you are grasping at straws…

It proves that Mary did not understand Christ’s most basic mission of doing the will of his Father.

Your passage in Mark proves even less…so his friends went to get Him thinking He was mad…that does not tie in with verse 31 at all. It doesn’t say anything about Mary in verse 21.

Actually in verse 21 "…his family went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” And in verse 31 we discover who His family is, “Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived.” Unless you wish to deny the context of the passages, you must agree that the family who went to take charge of Jesus is the same family that arrives in verse 31!

As for your allegations that Jesus was putting down His mother I would say that you read something into this passage that is not there at all. ther is nothing in that passage that impugns the Blessed Virgin in any way, but He uses that to make a point about becoming part of the Body of Christ. That’s all these verses say and all they imply.
Pax vobiscum,

I’m sorry but anyone who reads the New Testament without a prior devotion to Mary will not come up with the Catholic Mary! Mary was a sinner who needed a Savior as we all do! Jesus never gave Mary the kind of honor or titles that Catholics do.

 

[mrS4ntA]

John 17 3:

Church Militant:

I’m sorry but anyone who reads the New Testament without a prior devotion to Mary will not come up with the Catholic Mary! Mary was a sinner who needed a Savior as we all do! Jesus never gave Mary the kind of honor or titles that Catholics do.

You bringing up the importance of the context of the reader just makes Sola Scriptura doesn’t make sense.

That means, to be true always, the context must be uniform. i.e. bringing up the need of an authoritative magisterium.

 

[Milliardo]

John 17 3:

If Mary was as you present her please explain Luke 2:48-50. Here Mary did not understand what Jesus was saying when He said that He must be in His Fathers house!
Now read Mark 3:21 and jump over to verse 31. Here is says that His family came to take charge of Him because they (including Mary) think He is out of His mind! Now read verses 32-35. I get a much different picture of Mary than the one you have painted!

How convenient you left out verse 51 in Luke 2, where it says Mary kept all these things in her heart. That’s where I pointed out to you when you quoted me. So Mary really followed Jesus through and through faithfully. In Mark 3:21 we find that Jesus’ relatives came for Him; there is no indication that Mary was among those relatives who thought Him go insane. Mark 3:31’s implication actually would be praise for Mary in an indirect way, for she did the will of God without question, and which He is aware of.

 

[Milliardo]

John 17 3:

Actually in verse 21 "…his family went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

Family does not necessarily mean just one’s direct relatives, yes? And when I mean direct, it means one’s parents and siblings. Again, no indication on that verse of Mary being part of the said family members who thought Him insane.

Jesus never gave Mary the kind of honor or titles that Catholics do.

Jesus as obedient to His Father would likewise obey what His Father wanted, and that is to honour thy father and mother. So Jesus as a Good Son would thus give Mary all the due respect and honour a Son would give one’s mother.

 

[Axion]

John 17 3:

Church Militant:

I’m sorry but anyone who reads the New Testament without a prior devotion to Mary will not come up with the Catholic Mary! Mary was a sinner who needed a Savior as we all do! Jesus never gave Mary the kind of honor or titles that Catholics do.

Strange that all the people who read the New Testament for 1500 years came up with the same Mary - the Catholic Mary.

Only in the past 300 years or so have certain people suddenly discovered some other Mary. A Mary who is not blessed and Full of Grace. A Mary who is not a virgin, A Mary who is not mother of God the Son and of royal lineage. A Mary who is not exalted from generation to generation, and given to Christians as a mother, but instead is hidden away out of sight by bitter men, except when she is brought out briefly to be abused.

No. Give me the real Catholic and Apostolic Mary.

 

[deb1]

John 17 3:

Milliardo:

If Mary was as you present her please explain Luke 2:48-50. Here Mary did not understand what Jesus was saying when He said that He must be in His Fathers house!

Now read Mark 3:21 and jump over to verse 31. Here is says that His family came to take charge of Him because they (including Mary) think He is out of His mind! Now read verses 32-35. I get a much different picture of Mary than the one you have painted!

Well, I don’t understand everything about God but I still believe in him. Mary didn’t have to fully understand to believe. Yet she knew something special had happened because she treasured all these things in her heart.

Just a thought. If Mary did not believe in her son’s divine nature why did she ask him to change the water into wine? Please go back and read the account of the wedding. Mary is very certain that her son will help the bride and groom. She even tells the servants to do everything Jesus says. This isn’t just motherly pride in her son. I think my own sons are pretty great but I don’t go around asking for them for miracles!