Mary

[Genesis315]

**Exactly when and where are we told to pray to or for the dead? **
Bible verse please!

Martin Luther threw out the book that talked about praying for the dead, one of the Maccabbees.

As for praying to the dead, the Church makes up the Body of Christ. Christ is also the Lord of the living. When people die on earth and go to purgatory and then heaven, they do not cease to be part of the Body. Likewise, Christ’s Body is cut in two by death, it remains one and connected. The members of His Body on earth are in communion with those in Heaven. Revalation shows saints offering our prayers to Jesus (or is it God the father, oh well, you can look it up). Asking members of the Church in heaven to pray for you is just like asking a member of the Church on earth to pray for you. Except those in heaven are closer to God and more righteous and the prayers of the righteous man are very effective.

Sorry, I don’t have the specific verses off the top of my head. I’m sure they’er familiar to you or maybe someone will help me out.

 

[Fieryjades]

2 Maccabees 12:46 is a reference to Purgatory: “it is holy and wholesome to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”

 

[John_17_3]

mrS4ntA:

On contrare, the originial Greek text, “kecharitomene” literally translate, “to be filled to the brim with grace”

Wrong again! The same participle form occurs in Ephesians 1:6 where it is applied to all believers. Are we to conclude on this basis that all believers are without original sin? I think not!

Modern scholarship has dismissed the translation “full of grace” as a nonviable rendition of the phrase in question. Is it not interesting to note that the most recent standard Catholic translations, the NAB and the JB, have followed suit in their renditions (NAB, "Oh highly favored daughter; JB, "So highly favored").
**
There is good reason for rejecting “full of grace”- it makes little sense in context. The word is further explained in Luke 1 verse 30: ***“you have found favor with God.” ***Contextually, the reason Mary is “highly favored” is because she “has been elected by God to conceive the Messiah”, not because of some intrinsic and permanent quality og grace within Mary!


**
**

 

[John_17_3]

Genesis315:

Martin Luther threw out the book that talked about praying for the dead, one of the Maccabbees.

Wrong again! The Council of Trent inserted the Apocrypha into the Bible in the sixteenth century in response to the Reformation!

As for praying to the dead, the Church makes up the Body of Christ. Christ is also the Lord of the living. When people die on earth and go to purgatory and then heaven, they do not cease to be part of the Body. Likewise, Christ’s Body is cut in two by death, it remains one and connected. The members of His Body on earth are in communion with those in Heaven. Revalation shows saints offering our prayers to Jesus (or is it God the father, oh well, you can look it up). Asking members of the Church in heaven to pray for you is just like asking a member of the Church on earth to pray for you. Except those in heaven are closer to God and more righteous and the prayers of the righteous man are very effective.

And Purgatory is found where? Bible verse please! (Exclude anything in the Apocrypha–It’s not Scripture)

---

I agree that we remain in the Body of Christ however, death seperates out lines of communication! Also, pray is to be directed to God alone!

Sorry, I don’t have the specific verses off the top of my head. I’m sure they’er familiar to you or maybe someone will help me out.

 

[John_17_3]

2 Maccabees 12:46 is a reference to Purgatory: “it is holy and wholesome to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”

The Apocrypha is not Scripture! It contains historic errors and it nowhere claims to be inspired!

 

[Luke1_48]

The Apocrypha is not Scripture! It contains historic errors and it nowhere claims to be inspired!

Where?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The Deutrocanonicals ARE Scripture and have been for some 1600 years. They were removed on the “inspiration” of MEN, not the Holy Spirit whose guidance led to them being included in the canon.

And do please show me where any of the books in the Bible claim to be “inspired”. (Remember the “all scripture is God-breathed. . .” etc. refers to the Old Testament, which was not ALL the Jewish writings or teachings so had to be “discerned” through the Holy Spirit. . .AND to the New Testament, which was not available and indeed would be the product of copies of copies of original manuscripts, none of which survives, discerned by St. Jerome and written in the “vulgar” or Latin, tongue, in 382 A.D.)

If you claim that ANY scripture is inspired, then you must accept the authority of the catholic church in canonizing the ORIGINAL books, even if you “accept” your Protestant forebears “jettisoning” those books which didn’t “jibe” with their man-made interpretations. . .

 

[yochumjy]

The Apocrypha is not Scripture! It contains historic errors and it nowhere claims to be inspired!

Please show us any book of the Bible that claims to be inspired.


John

 

[John_17_3]

deb1:

I don’t think that Jesus was distancing himself from Mary when He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” I think that he is saying what is most commendable about Mary. Her faith and obedience. To take any other meaning from the passage is to indicate that Jesus didn’t mind publically insulting his own mother. I just can’t imagine our saviour doing such a thing.It would also negate Jesus and Mary’s relationship as shown through in the second chapter of John. It was at his mother’s request that he committed his first miracle.

I don’t know how you can derive anything else from this passage! If Jesus was saying what is most commendable about Mary, he sure had a strange way of saying it!

You have to remember that Jesus’ status as Lord transcends his biological ties to Mary!

 

[Church_Militant]

**Exactly when and where are we told to pray to or for the dead? **
Bible verse please!

**
2nd Maccabees 12:46** It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hi John:

Do you believe that God is your Father? Is Jesus our Brother?

 

[Luke1_48]

Q. How do you get three nuns to swear?

A. Have the fourth one yell Bingo.

 

[John_17_3]

yochumjy:

Please show us any book of the Bible that claims to be inspired.


John

You must be really ignorant of the Scriptures!

2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitably for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

---

 

[Church_Militant]

The Apocrypha is not Scripture! It contains historic errors and it nowhere claims to be inspired!

Trash! It was scripture in the time of Christ and it was scripture at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage in 393 and 397 and it was scripture in 1517 when Martin Luther tossed them out because they didn’t support the errors of his new doctrines, they were scripture when the 1611 KJV came out and they’ll be scripture when all of us are in the arms of the Lord in heaven.

 

[Luke1_48]

John 17 3:

You must be really ignorant of the Scriptures!

2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitably for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

---

That can only mean the Old Testament, since the New Testament was still being written.

 

[Luke1_48]

Church Militant:

Trash! It was scripture in the time of Christ and it was scripture at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage in 393 and 397 and it was scripture in 1517 when Martin Luther tossed them out because they didn’t support the errors of his new doctrines, they were scripture when the 1611 KJV came out and they’ll be scripture when all of us are in the arms of the Lord in heaven.

Don’t forget the “Apocrypha” was in the original 1611 KJV as good historical reading. They were even in the anti-Catholic Geneva Bible.

 

[John_17_3]

Tantum ergo:

The Deutrocanonicals ARE Scripture and have been for some 1600 years. They were removed on the “inspiration” of MEN, not the Holy Spirit whose guidance led to them being included in the canon.

And do please show me where any of the books in the Bible claim to be “inspired”. (Remember the “all scripture is God-breathed. . .” etc. refers to the Old Testament, which was not ALL the Jewish writings or teachings so had to be “discerned” through the Holy Spirit. . .AND to the New Testament, which was not available and indeed would be the product of copies of copies of original manuscripts, none of which survives, discerned by St. Jerome and written in the “vulgar” or Latin, tongue, in 382 A.D.)

If you claim that ANY scripture is inspired, then you must accept the authority of the catholic church in canonizing the ORIGINAL books, even if you “accept” your Protestant forebears “jettisoning” those books which didn’t “jibe” with their man-made interpretations. . .

The Apocrypha was never considered Scripture intil the Catholic Church added them to the Bible in the sixteenth century!!!

I do not accept the authority of the** Roman** Catholic Church! It is not the Church Christ founded!

 

[Luke1_48]

John 17 3:

The Apocrypha was never considered Scripture intil the Catholic Church added them to the Bible in the sixteenth century!!!

Neither was the rest of the Bible until the Council of Trent declared the canon in existence since the counicl of Rome inspired and binding.

 

[yochumjy]

John 17 3:

You must be really ignorant of the Scriptures!

2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitably for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

---

Yes, I know that all scripture is inspired by God and good for you, but that isn’t what we are talking about is it.

You SPECIFICALLY said:

The Apocrypha is not Scripture! It contains historic errors and it nowhere claims to be inspired!

Now, where does the book of Job claim to be inspired? Is it in the text of the book of Job? Where is the text in Acts that says
“This book is inspired”. So, stop being so illusive, and tell me where ANY book of the Bible makes the claim that it is inspired or part of scripture.

John

 

[Church_Militant]

John 17 3:

You must be really ignorant of the Scriptures!

2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitably for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

---

That’s just fine, though all this has diddly to do with Mary, but is there any list anywhere defines as showing what is scripture and what is not. The only early church records are all Catholic, so you’re outta luck there. The only guarantee that you have an inspired canon at all is because of the authority of the church that wrote, protected and confirmed it as canon. Otherwise all you have to go on is your personal assertion that the Bible that you have in your hand is inspired. There are a lot of other religions that have writings that they claim are inspired and your assertion does nothing more than put you on the same level that they’re on. Dubious at best and ludicrous at worst. The only authoritative proof of inspiration is the authoritative statement of the church that Jesus Himself founded in 33 AD.

So…now prove to us the inspiration of each and every book in the Bible. Let’s start with Jude, which quotes two non-Canonical books of Jewish traditional writings as inspired text. (The Assumption of Moses and The Book of Enoch)