Mary

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John 17 3:
Strange that all the people who read the New Testament for 1500 years came up with the same Mary - the Catholic Mary.

Only in the past 300 years or so have certain people suddenly discovered some other Mary. A Mary who is not blessed and Full of Grace. A Mary who is not a virgin, A Mary who is not mother of God the Son and of royal lineage. A Mary who is not exalted from generation to generation, and given to Christians as a mother, but instead is hidden away out of sight by bitter men, except when she is brought out briefly to be abused.

No. Give me the real Catholic and Apostolic Mary.
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I prefer the true Mary revealed within the pages of Scripture. The true Mary was a humble servant of God who was a sinner in need of a savior just like the rest of mankind. She is blessed but not full of grace. She is not God’s mother and is not to receive the type of honor Catholics give to her. She is not the Mother of the church or Christians, a Perpetual virgin, Queen of Heaven, Co-Redeemer, Mediatrix or Advocate. She cannot hear or answer prayers. Catholics have turned Mary into a goddess. Instead of being blessed among women she is considered blessed above women!

While it is right to honor her as the mother of Jesus Christ, there are no biblical grounds for placing her in a position of mediation between ourselves and our Lord. The Scriptures declare: “There is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5).

:amen:
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deb1:
John 17 3:
Well, I don’t understand everything about God but I still believe in him. Mary didn’t have to fully understand to believe. Yet she knew something special had happened because she treasured all these things in her heart.

Just a thought. If Mary did not believe in her son’s divine nature why did she ask him to change the water into wine? Please go back and read the account of the wedding. Mary is very certain that her son will help the bride and groom. She even tells the servants to do everything Jesus says. This isn’t just motherly pride in her son. I think my own sons are pretty great but I don’t go around asking for them for miracles!
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Please don’t add to what the Scriptures say! Where does the Scriptures say that Mary asked Jesus to turn water into wine? I’ve read and re-read John 2:1-11 and I don’t see this request being made? Maybe I just don’t see Mary asking Jesus to perform a miracle. :hmmm:
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I prefer the true Mary revealed within the pages of Scripture. The true Mary was a humble servant of God who was a sinner in need of a savior just like the rest of mankind. She is blessed but not full of grace.
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You must have a problem with Luke then, as the Angel addressed her as, “Hail full of grace…”
She is not God’s mother
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Mother of the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son. That’s what it refers to with that title. See also Luke 1:43 when Elizabeth, under the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, said: “How can this be, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Interestingly, I checked the NIV as well and the same verse is in there.
She is not the Mother of the church or Christians
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Revelation 12:1 shows Mary to be the woman clothed with the sun and a crown with 12 stars on her head.
a Perpetual virgin, Queen of Heaven
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Luther and Calvin never denied the perpetual virgninty of Mary, surprisingly. Luther even went far as to say it is heretical to say otherwise. Protestantism by and large have not followed suit with them though… Queen of heaven: again Revelation 12:1
While it is right to honor her as the mother of Jesus Christ, there are no biblical grounds for placing her in a position of mediation between ourselves and our Lord. The Scriptures declare: “There is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5).
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Do you have a problem as well with praying for other people and people praying for you? If not, then you are as well violating 1 Timothy 2:5, right?
 
John 17 3:
Please don’t add to what the Scriptures say! Where does the Scriptures say that Mary asked Jesus to turn water into wine? I’ve read and re-read John 2:1-11 and I don’t see this request being made? Maybe I just don’t see Mary asking Jesus to perform a miracle.
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She didn’t say so directly to Him, but neither did He turn down her request, did He now? In fact He acceded to her request. Mary even bade the servants to do whatever they tell Him, which implies that Jesus finally gave in to His mother’s request. The request can be found in John 2:2, when Mary said to Him, “They have no wine”. Note that Jesus readily understood what she implied and at first tried to turn her down, but in the suebsequent verse we find Mary bidding the servants to do what He says. There is an understanding between Son and mother there, and Jesus cannot casually turn down His mother’s request.
 
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Milliardo:
How convenient you left out verse 51 in Luke 2, where it says Mary kept all these things in her heart. That’s where I pointed out to you when you quoted me. So Mary really followed Jesus through and through faithfully. In Mark 3:21 we find that Jesus’ relatives came for Him; there is no indication that Mary was among those relatives who thought Him go insane. Mark 3:31’s implication actually would be praise for Mary in an indirect way, for she did the will of God without question, and which He is aware of.
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Actually there is a very good indication that Mary was among those who thought Jesus was out of his mind! Verse 21 states, "…his family went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” And in verse 31 we discover who His family is, “Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived.” Unless you wish to deny the context of the passages, you must agree that the family who went to take charge of Jesus is the same family that arrives in verse 31!

If you deny that there is an indication that the family in verse 21 is not the family that arrives in verse 31 then you are being intelectually dishonest!
 
John 17 3:
Actually there is a very good indication that Mary was among those who thought Jesus was out of his mind! Verse 21 states, "…his family went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” And in verse 31 we discover who His family is, “Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived.”
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They did arrive–does that again necessarily mean Mary was among those who thought Him insane? Again, nothing in verse 21 implies so. One could surmise that Mary was concerned for His safety and pre-empted the coming of the other relatives to seize Him. The subsequent passages after it (verse 32ff) gives no further indication to their intent on being there, so one has to assume their presence was for His well-being, not for harm.
If you deny that there is an indication that the family in verse 21 is not the family that arrives in verse 31 then you are being intelectually dishonest!
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And you wish us to beleive that when one refers to family, that it means the immediate family? During Jesus’ time family is extended, not just nuclear, family. So the family could go on to uncles, aunts, cousins, grandparents, etc. All qualifying as family. Again, no indication on the passages stated as to what the intentions of Mary are, other than to see her Son safe, as any mother should. Would a mother readily think of her son insane especially after we read in Luke 2 that she has kept all the things He said and did in her heart? Would she follow Him to the Cross if she thought Him insane? I think not.
 
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Milliardo:
You must have a problem with Luke then, as the Angel addressed her as, “Hail full of grace…”

Actually a more accurate translation is, “Greetings, you who are highly favored”

Mother of the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son. That’s what it refers to with that title. See also Luke 1:43 when Elizabeth, under the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, said: “How can this be, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Interestingly, I checked the NIV as well and the same verse is in there.

With all due respect, Mary is not the mother of God, she is the mother of Jesus who is both God and Man. When you call her mother of God you deny His humanity in an attempt to elevate Mary to position she does not have!

Revelation 12:1 shows Mary to be the woman clothed with the sun and a crown with 12 stars on her head.

The *woman *in Revelation 12:1 is not a person (Mary) any more than the woman in Revelation 17 is a person! The book of Revelation is a book of symbols not riddles. Please read Genesis 37:9 and compare it to Revelation 12:1.

Luther and Calvin never denied the perpetual virgninty of Mary, surprisingly. Luther even went far as to say it is heretical to say otherwise. Protestantism by and large have not followed suit with them though… Queen of heaven: again Revelation 12:1

The only Queen of Heaven is a pagan goddess found in Jeremiah 44.

Do you have a problem as well with praying for other people and people praying for you? If not, then you are as well violating 1 Timothy 2:5, right?
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I do not have a problem praying to God for other living people or asking other living people to pray to God for me. However, God has a problem with those who contact the dead.
 
John 17 3:
You must have a problem with Luke then, as the Angel addressed her as, “Hail full of grace…”

Actually a more accurate translation is, “Greetings, you who are highly favored”
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On contrare, the originial Greek text, “kecharitomene” literally translate, “to be filled to the brim with grace”
 
John 17 3:
Mother of the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son. That’s what it refers to with that title. See also Luke 1:43 when Elizabeth, under the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, said: “How can this be, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Interestingly, I checked the NIV as well and the same verse is in there.

With all due respect, Mary is not the mother of God, she is the mother of Jesus who is both God and Man. When you call her mother of God you deny His humanity in an attempt to elevate Mary to position she does not have!
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Then you are guiltyn of denying Jesus’ divinity. The original intention of hailing Mary as the Theotokos, i.e. “the God-bearer” i.e. “Mother of God” was to root out a heresy denying the hypostatic union of Christ.

Granted, Jesus has two natures. But a nature is not a person, and a mother does not give birth to a nature, but a whole person.

Jesus is God; Mary is His Mother; ergo, Mary is the Mother of God. Plain and simple.

Regarding natures, you can say Jesus, Son of God and Son of Mary.

But Mary is the Mother of the Word Incarnate. Period.
 
John 17 3:
With all due respect, Mary is not the mother of God, she is the mother of Jesus who is both God and Man. When you call her mother of God you deny His humanity in an attempt to elevate Mary to position she does not have!
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As mrS4ntA said, Mary is the mother of the Person Jesus, not just His nature. Jesus’ humanity and divinity go together, not separate. Again, Luther and Calvin curiously did not deny this aspect of Mary as mother of God the Son.
The *woman *in Revelation 12:1 is not a person (Mary) any more than the woman in Revelation 17 is a person! The book of Revelation is a book of symbols not riddles. Please read Genesis 37:9 and compare it to Revelation 12:1.
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This would be an over-simplification of the passage in question, for we see in the following verses that she gave birth to a child (verse 2), which is a male (verse 5) who will rule with an iron rod. To simply state that this is not a person would empty the verses following it of its meaning. Genesis 37:9 is not germaine to the discussion at hand. Again, you over-simplify this point. The Church though does see the woman as to also mean the Church itself, though also as well agrees that the verse points to marry. The child in question then would obviously point to Jesus.
I do not have a problem praying to God for other living people or asking other living people to pray to God for me. However, God has a problem with those who contact the dead.
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Then you don’t think Mary is alive in Christ, as Christ Himself promised in John 11 that those who believe in Him will not perish, but would live in Him?
 
The *woman *in Revelation 12:1 is not a person (Mary) any more than the woman in Revelation 17 is a person! The book of Revelation is a book of symbols not riddles. Please read Genesis 37:9 and compare it to Revelation 12:1.
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alternative interpretations are contextually wrong. For all the other figures in this passage represent individuals, not ideas or classes of people. The Child is clearly Jesus, the Dragon is clearly Satan, each star swept out of the sky is one of the rebel angels who followed Satan. Later in the passage, we find Michael and his angels, and also the Beast - the Antichrist. The Woman is the only figure in the passage who, according to some, is not the individual stated in the text, but a collective representation.

Conversely, when Israel, Christians or the Church appear elsewhere in Revelation, they do not appear as personifications. They appear in literal form, as groups of individuals. See Rev 7.4: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel; Rev 7.9: …a great multitude that no-one could count….; Rev 12.17: …the rest of her offspring - those who obey God’s commandments…. Even where the Church appears as the Bride of Christ, and a female personification would be expected, we do not get one. Instead of appearing as a woman, the Church appears as a City - the new Jerusalem. Rev 21: 9-10.
The figures that appear in Revelation 12 are the same as those that appear in the proto-gospel of Genesis. (See Immaculate Conception). Genesis 3:15. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Satan is both the Serpent of Genesis, and the Dragon of Revelation. Jesus is the “seed” who will crush the serpent in Genesis, and the child who will rule with a rod of iron in Revelation. In both, He and His mother, the Woman, are at permanent enmity with the serpent. The Woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is the same. However no one suggests that the woman of Genesis 3 is Israel.
 
John 17 3:
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deb1:
Please don’t add to what the Scriptures say! Where does the Scriptures say that Mary asked Jesus to
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turn water into wine? I’ve read and re-read John 2:1-11 and I don’t see this request being made? Maybe I just don’t see Mary asking Jesus to perform a miracle. :hmmm:

I assure you I did not add to scripture. You are the one who is insisting that Mary thought Jesus was crazy even though the bible doesn’t say that. Nowhere in the bible does it say that Mary disbelieved in Jesus but you are saying that also. Before you accuse me of adding to scripture you should reread your own posts. I am not trying to be rude to you, so I am sorry if it comes off that way.

Why in the world would she tell the servants to do whatever he said, if she didn’t think him capable of solving the problem?
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John 17 3:
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deb1:
Please don’t add to what the Scriptures say! Where does the Scriptures say that Mary asked Jesus to
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turn water into wine? I’ve read and re-read John 2:1-11 and I don’t see this request being made? Maybe I just don’t see Mary asking Jesus to perform a miracle. :hmmm:
You’d be in the extreme minority then because even Jesus asked her why they needed to get involved. No one has to add anything. It’s there in plain view…if you think not then you have a problem with your preconceived notions that you are reading into God’s word.

How you miss that is beyond me and multiple billions of Christians over the last 2,000 years.

You’re the guy with the revisionist Mary concept.
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“There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-11) KJV

Necromancer:


  1. *]The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead **in order to predict the future. **
    *]Black magic; sorcery.
    *]Magic qualities.

    dictionary.reference.com/search?q=necromancer

    “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-11) NIV

    Consult:

    1. *]

      1. *]To seek advice or information of: consult an attorney.
        *]To refer to: consulted a telephone directory for the number.

        *]To take into account; consider: consult one’s checkbook before making a major purchase.

        www.dictionary.com

        Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

        The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
        www.dictionary.com www.dictionary.com

        God forbids séances to gain information about things only God should know, not asking the Saints in Heaven to pray for us.
 
John 17 3:
I do not have a problem praying to God for other living people or asking other living people to pray to God for me. However, God has a problem with those who contact the dead.
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Exactly when and where did Mary drop dead? Bible verse please!
those who contact the dead.
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Matthew 17:3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Naughty Jesus…contacting the “DEAD”. If you ever see Him, I hope you set him straight. I have NO doubt you’ll try.
 
John 17 3:
There are just as many differences within Catholicism as in Protestantism! Ask a group of Catholics what they believe about a particular Church teaching and you will get a variety of contradicting answers.
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That’s funny, there is only one cathecism. What it is is people don’t have the inititaive to actually read it, like the people on these forums do.
 
TNT said:
Exactly when and where did Mary drop dead? Bible verse please!
**Exactly when and where was Mary assumed into heaven? **
Bible verse please!

Matthew 17:3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Naughty Jesus…contacting the “DEAD”. If you ever see Him, I hope you set him straight. I have NO doubt you’ll try.
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**Exactly when and where are we told to pray to or for the dead? **
Bible verse please!
 
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