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John 17 3:
It’s not an accurate term!
The term “Mother of God” is a title for Mary which was defined at the Council of Ephesus in 430 A.D. to address the Nestorian heresy. Nestorianism short-changes the Divinity of Christ. You seem too smart to object to the title for some silly “reason,” such as it would make Mary older than God. If you hope to address the matter seriously, you should really look into the issue before renouncing it. Everything Catholics say about Mary is, in fact, about Jesus.
 
John 17 3:
Wrong again! The same participle form occurs in Ephesians 1:6 where it is applied to all believers. Are we to conclude on this basis that all believers are without original sin? I think not!
You are mistaken. The word found in Ephesians 1.6 is a participle of Charis, meaning Grace. But a different one, with a different meaning. The word in Ephesians 1.6 is ECHARITOSEN. This is NOT the same word as KECHARITOMENE, which is used of Mary, despite having the same root. “Full of Grace” is only a rough translation of “kecharitomene”, which does not give the full flavour of this complex and precise word.

Briefly then KE-CHARITO-MENE can be translated as
COMPLETELY-WITH_GRACE-ENDOWED_PERSON

E-CHARITO-SEN on the other hand has the suffix SEN, meaning “By-Him” This changes the main objective of the word towards the giver rather than the person who has received the gift.

E-CHARITO-SEN then must be translated
GRACE-ENDOWED_BY-HIM

This produces a very significant difference in meaning. Echaritosen does NOT indicate sinlessness. Kecharitomene DOES
Modern scholarship has dismissed the translation “full of grace” as a nonviable rendition of the phrase in question. Is it not interesting to note that the most recent standard Catholic translations, the NAB and the JB, have followed suit in their renditions (NAB, "Oh highly favored daughter; JB, "So highly favored").
Not true at all. “Highly favoured” was invented by the KJV translators specifically to try to reduce Mary’s status. It is unfortunate that some Liberal translators have used this formulation since. But good translations use Full of Grace - as does the Liturgy.

The Greek word used by the angel is Kecharitomene. The root of this word is Charis, meaning Grace. The prefix Ke means that the grace was already perfectly present before the angel appeared. The suffix mene means that Mary was the recipient of this grace.

Now **Charis ** can also be translated simply as favour. So Highly-favoured could be a conceivable translation - but this would only be acceptable if the word “favour” were used as a translation for “Charis” everywhere else in the New Testament. But THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. Even those bibles which translate “Charis” as Favour" when referring to Mary, translate it as “Grace” everywhere else. So translating the word any differently is wrong. The correct translation is rightfully “Full of Grace”.
There is good reason for rejecting “full of grace”- it makes little sense in context. The word is further explained in Luke 1 verse 30: ***“you have found favor with God.” ***Contextually, the reason Mary is “highly favored” is because she “has been elected by God to conceive the Messiah”, not because of some intrinsic and permanent quality og grace within Mary!
This disproves your case. The angel is not repeating himself, and He uses a different word.

To quote modern academic sources>

“…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]

"The fifth century scholar Jerome was correct in translating the Greek to gratiae plena ‘full of grace’, even the translators of 1611 King James Version show there approval of this in the Margin with “Much Graced” [A Look at the Greek Scriptures, 1984, New York, Garretson Cox & Company Pg. 123 ]
 
Luke1:48 said:
We agree with you, she gave birth to Jesus (true God and true man) so she gave birth the existing 2nd person of the Trinity… God. Making her the mother of God. :yup:

she gave birth to Jesus (true God and true man = Making her the mother of God. How is this logical? Aren’t you leaving something out?
 
Luke1:48:

Duh, NO! Did she give birth to Jesus (true God and true man)?

If Jesus was born BOTH God and Man! Then Mary gave birth to the incarnation, who is God; making her the Mother of God.

So Jesus’ humanity disappeared?
 
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mercygate:
The term “Mother of God” is a title for Mary which was defined at the Council of Ephesus in 430 A.D. to address the Nestorian heresy. Nestorianism short-changes the Divinity of Christ. You seem too smart to object to the title for some silly “reason,” such as it would make Mary older than God. If you hope to address the matter seriously, you should really look into the issue before renouncing it. Everything Catholics say about Mary is, in fact, about Jesus.
Actually, the Council of Ephesus used the term Theotokos, which means literally, “God-bearer”, and not “Mother of God.” Interestingly, they could have used the term meter theou, which is litterally, “Mother of God,” and which was in use at the time by Cyril; but, significantly, they chose not to!

😃
 
John 17 3:
Actually, the Council of Ephesus used the term Theotokos, which means literally, “God-bearer”, and not “Mother of God.” Interestingly, they could have used the term meter theou, which is litterally, “Mother of God,” and which was in use at the time by Cyril; but, significantly, they chose not to!

😃
Interesting! Can you explain the difference? I may be dense, but the last time I bore a child, I was its mother. Can you explain the nuances for me?
 
John 17 3:
I agree that Mary is the mother of a person however, the moment you say that Mary is the “mother of God,” you have violated that distinction; for then you are affirming that Mary is the mother of deity but not humanity!
Since Mary is human, her child being human is understood. The thing that needed and continues to need affirming is that Jesus is God the Son. Any backtracking on the title Mother of God, threatens this understanding.
In other words, “God” is merely descriptive of one of Jesus’ natures. The person of Jesus isn’t merely God any more than the person of Jesus is merely man.
And here is where the danger starts. The person of Jesus is BOTH God and man. It is not just a “nature” of Jesus. Jesus IS the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
To put it another way, Mary gave birth to a person who is both God and man. She did not give birth to the per-incarnate form of the Logos! Therefore, it is proper to call Mary the mother of Jesus but not the mother of God!
And here is where you begin slipping into major heresy. This is Nestorian heresy. Mary did give birth to the Logos. The Logos united hypostatically with humanity. As such, Mary is Mother of God the Son. Saying “Mary Mother of Jesus” is meaningless - since it fudges who Jesus is. Worse, trying to abandon the title Mother of God is to deny Jesus divinity.

If you deny Mary is Mother of God, you deny the divinity of Jesus.
 
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Axion:
And here is where the danger starts. The person of Jesus is BOTH God and man. It is not just a “nature” of Jesus. Jesus IS the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
Careful, Axion: that’s ONE divine person with two natures, human & divine.
 
John 17 3:
I think you’re having problems with logic! Mary cannot be the mother of God, who is a being that consists of three persons not just one!
Each “person” of the Trinity is equally God. God is ONE.

:banghead:
 
John 17 3:
Actually, the Council of Ephesus used the term Theotokos, which means literally, “God-bearer”, and not “Mother of God.” Interestingly, they could have used the term meter theou, which is litterally, “Mother of God,” and which was in use at the time by Cyril; but, significantly, they chose not to!
Women who bear children are appropriately called, mother. Mary bore Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God. Mary is the mother of God. Mary is Theotokos–God Bearer–she bore God. Jesus was both Divine and human–this hypostatic union cannot be separated. So if she is God Bearer, it means she gave birth to God–hence she is the mother of God. For you to deny this, places you in the nestorian camp.

BTW–The 2nd council of Constantinople clarifies that God Bearer is synonomous with mother of God.
😃
 
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mercygate:
Cool! citation, pretty please?
“If anyone says that the holy glorious ever-virgin Mary is falsely but not truly the Mother of God…let such a one be anathema”
(Canon 6: Denzinger #218)
 
John 17 3 said:
So Jesus’ humanity disappeared?

Nope, he is human and divine, yet still God. She gave birth to him, making her the Mother of God.
 
John 17 3 said:
she gave birth to Jesus (true God and true man = Making her the mother of God. How is this logical? Aren’t you leaving something out?

She gave birth to Jesus who is the incarnation, He is God, and she gave birth to him.
 
“Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means, “God is with us.” Mt 1:23

Recognizing Mary as the “Mother of God” or “Queen of Heaven” comes through grace. This grace is freely given to all who ask.

They who have ears to hear, let them hear!

Even my Baptist wife recognizes that Mary is the Mother of God. Of course she is not into apologetics so she isn’t fearful of how this profession of faith compromises the non-Catholic position. Of course now she is afforded the grace that this profession of faith can bring.

Many non-Catholics by virtue of their position must deny that Mary is the Mother of God. They do not realize that this will bring judgement against them.

For Jesus to be conceived, Mary and the Holy Spirit became one. Is this not how God established the procreation of humanity? “Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Mk 10:9

Since Mary and the Holy Spirit are one, then blashemy against Mary becomes blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
 
John 17 3 said:
And just who starts the wandering?

You from what I’ve seen…

You have no answer to this, so you offer Zen Koan-like questions that lead nowhere. Is this your own messed up opinion or did you get this from your preacher or a book or what?

If the “pillars of the reformation” believed that Mary was the mother of God (which they demonstably did!) then I wonder where you departed from their doctrines and why?

I think we’ve answered your remarks from a Catholic perspective and now you’re just being an obstinate pest.

You have provided us with your opinion and we are unconvinced. Now all you’re doing is flogging a very dead horse.

Maybe you should dig up a new issue and open a thread on that.
Pax vobiscum,
 
John 17 3:
Actually, the Council of Ephesus used the term Theotokos, which means literally, “God-bearer”, and not “Mother of God.” Interestingly, they could have used the term meter theou, which is litterally, “Mother of God,” and which was in use at the time by Cyril; but, significantly, they chose not to!
God-bearer–mother of God. I wonder how one would be God-bearer if one would not be a mother of God. Semantics, really.
 
Axion said:
If you deny Mary is Mother of God, you deny the divinity of Jesus.

Right on–incidentally, the very heresy Ephesus was convened. That’s why they affirmed Mary as theotokos rather than christotokos to highlight Jesus’ divinity. See, John thinks theotokos is centered on Mary; it is not. The point of contention is Jesus’ divinity, so the title of Mary as theotokos is really Christological in nature, not Marialogical.
 
And the moral of today’s scripture lesson; boys and girls, is: “Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 7:12)
 
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