- Status
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Vincent1560
Guest
Semper Fi:
" and merely have a semantic disagreement or wether we do in fact have a substantial disagreement.
I don’t recall ever denying the Eucharist’s true nature. I was merely citing it as an example of a subject having an objective truth per E.C.C.'s question. I haven’t studied communion/Eucharist enough to state my view on it and proclaim it here as being truth. It is a matter I am still learning about and am definetley willing to hear your views on the subject. If you are interested, my view after doing what study I have done is that communion is to be done often in remembrance of Christ per the scriptures. And obviously communion should be taken with reverence for it is a sacred act like baptism. I further believe that when Jesus states that he who eats his flesh and drinks his blood abides in him and vice versa that he does not mean we are eating or drinking his physical body. One reason I believe this is that when he has communion with the disciples the gospel gives no indication that his actual body is shredded or his blood spilled in the process. I also think that when he says “this is my body…” he is not being merely symbolic. I believe that some kind of metaphysical transformation takes place in the bread and wine such that it has the property of imparting the essence or substance of Christ to us. Again this is my view thus far and I do not claim to be declaring this as necessarily the complete picture because I have not studied the matter fully. I know that Catholics believe the bread and wine become the body and blood without actually changing their physical properties, so I am not sure wether we agree in "substance
" and merely have a semantic disagreement or wether we do in fact have a substantial disagreement.
R
RyanL
Guest
You may want to check out this link:
Eucharistic_theologies_contrasted
which contrasts Eucharistic theologies. After you check it out, you can say if you believe in transubstantiation, consubstantiation, or the real presence as defined by others.
You may also want to read this:
The Four Cups
It’s long, but it’s soooo very worth it.
God Bless,
RyanL
Eucharistic_theologies_contrasted
which contrasts Eucharistic theologies. After you check it out, you can say if you believe in transubstantiation, consubstantiation, or the real presence as defined by others.
You may also want to read this:
The Four Cups
It’s long, but it’s soooo very worth it.
God Bless,
RyanL
S
Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Vincent, no problem man. And I just want to thank you for the charity that you’ve kept in your posts. Most protestants that come here aren’t truly looking to learn from our side, but rather attack our faith and some do it not so subtly… I’m glad that you’re trying to teach your sister the true Catholicism. Keep up the good work! Explaining our doctrines can get pretty frustrating at times… you may want to give her scripturecatholic.com & ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM as references and the main catholic.com webpage here. Fr Lukefahr also has some awesome study materials for those looking to learn about Catholicism and offers a free course home study course with a book and a study sheet. Check out his website at amm.org/chss.htm. (I recommend “We Believe - A Survey of the Catholic Faith”). Also, be sure to check out Scott Hahn’s & Mark P Shea’s books. Keep learning, the Scripture tells us that the more we indulge ourselves into our faith, the more we will know… I know Christ wants you to know His true Church, so just keep studying and keep an open mind (which from reading your posts you are).I don’t recall ever denying the Eucharist’s true nature. I was merely citing it as an example of a subject having an objective truth per E.C.C.'s question. I haven’t studied communion/Eucharist enough to state my view on it and proclaim it here as being truth. It is a matter I am still learning about and am definetley willing to hear your views on the subject. If you are interested, my view after doing what study I have done is that communion is to be done often in remembrance of Christ per the scriptures. And obviously communion should be taken with reverence for it is a sacred act like baptism. I further believe that when Jesus states that he who eats his flesh and drinks his blood abides in him and vice versa that he does not mean we are eating or drinking his physical body. One reason I believe this is that when he has communion with the disciples the gospel gives no indication that his actual body is shredded or his blood spilled in the process. I also think that when he says “this is my body…” he is not being merely symbolic. I believe that some kind of metaphysical transformation takes place in the bread and wine such that it has the property of imparting the essence or substance of Christ to us. Again this is my view thus far and I do not claim to be declaring this as necessarily the complete picture because I have not studied the matter fully. I know that Catholics believe the bread and wine become the body and blood without actually changing their physical properties, so I am not sure wether we agree in "substance
V
Vincent1560
Guest
After going to the compare contrast site, I found the Lutheran explanation to be the closest to mine,
“Lutherans subscribe to a form of the doctrine of the Eucharistic Real Presence, believing the body and blood of Jesus Christ are offered with the bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper. They do not endorse any particular view of how this takes place, and regard attempts to explain in terms of philosophical metaphysics how the Eucharist “works” as disrespectful of the Sacrament’s miraculous and mysterious character. This refusal to endorse such explanatory doctrines, particularly transubstantiation, is sometimes interpreted by non-Lutherans as denial of the Real Presence.”
I liked this explanation because it acknowledges that there is mystery in exactly what happens during communion while affirming that a change does take place such that Christ is imparted to us, while not insisting that the bread and wine actually become his physical body in the ordinary understanding of what that would entail. I read the Catholic explanation on the site you gave me and while I can understand the view I have trouble with it for philosophical reasons. It states that according to your teachings the bread and wine become substantially the body and blood while retaining the accidental properties of bread and wine such that one could not physically detemine any change had occured. I am currently minoring in philosophy and have taken a course dealing with accidental vs. essentail properties. I do not see how something like the physical body of Christ can be described such that all its physical characteristics are accidental. A body is essentailly matter and a particular body must have additional physical properties making it the particular body that it is as opposed to another body. If this is not true it would make sense to say that when Christ became incarnated into the form of a man he was not necessarily in the form of man, or even a physical presence. This would not make sense. Again my thought process on this matter is still a work in progress.
V
Vincent1560
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
1.John 10: " 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
Here, I believe Jesus is clearly stating that once we become his we cannot perish, and no power, including our own is able change that.
I have many other scriptures if you would like them, but I am curious as to how Catholics respond to the aforementioned. In refuting my view (In the interests of full disclosure), the most troubeling book for me has always been Hebrews, particularly chapter 6, but after havin studied it in and of itself and within the context of Pauls other writings and the gospels, I do not believe it poses any contradictions to the doctrine of eternal security, but I can see where reasonable people could disagree on the matter.
Sounds like a plan. How about we tackle eternal security first, and later what is necessary for salvation? My belief after reading through the scriptures and discussing it with my bible study is that once saved you cannot become unsaved. Here are my reasons:As the topic of salvation goes for Sacred Scripture, there is MUCH to cover, we can take it a little at a time.
Pax tecum!
1.John 10: " 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
Here, I believe Jesus is clearly stating that once we become his we cannot perish, and no power, including our own is able change that.
- “1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops F1 and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.”
- “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
- Ephesians 4:30 “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
I have many other scriptures if you would like them, but I am curious as to how Catholics respond to the aforementioned. In refuting my view (In the interests of full disclosure), the most troubeling book for me has always been Hebrews, particularly chapter 6, but after havin studied it in and of itself and within the context of Pauls other writings and the gospels, I do not believe it poses any contradictions to the doctrine of eternal security, but I can see where reasonable people could disagree on the matter.
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
Okay let’s! I want to try and show salvation as not a one time event (OSAS), but an on-going process, and I will try to show you salvation as a past/present/future event(s)…consider these passages:
“Have been saved” (Past event)
Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why “hope” if salvation is a certainty?)
Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.
2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace. Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/images/horbar.gif
“Being saved” (present event)
1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.
2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.
Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process. 1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/images/horbar.gif
“Will be saved” (future event)
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).
Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.
Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.
Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?
1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.
2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives. Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him. James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
I would also like to take a look at what the early Church Fathers believed:
“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” *Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 10 ( A.D. 110). *
“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” *Didache, 16 (A.D. 90). *
“And as many of them, he added, as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish…Yet they also, being naturally good, on hearing my commandments, purified themselves, and soon repented. Their dwelling, accordingly, was in the tower. But if any one relapse into strife, he will be east out of the tower, and will lose his life.” *Hermas, The Shephard, 3:8:7 (A.D. 155). *
“[T]hat eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” *Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1 (A.D. 156). *
“Now, in the beginning the spirit was a constant companion of the soul, but the spirit forsook it because it was not willing to follow. Yet, retaining as it were a spark of its power, though unable by reason of the separation to discern the perfect, while seeking for God it fashioned to itself in its wandering many gods, following the sophistries of the demons. But the Spirit of God is not with all, but, taking up its abode with those who live justly, and intimately combining with the soul, by prophecies it announced hidden things to other souls.” Tatian the Syrian, To the Greeks, 13 (A.D. 175).
“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” *Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 (A.D. 180). *
“But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwilling. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? Is not this gift taken away from many?” *Tertullian, On Repentance, 6 (A.D. 204). *
“Confession is the beginning of glory, not the full desert of the crown; nor does it perfect our praise, but it initiates our dignity; and since it is written, ‘He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved,’ whatever has been before the end is a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation, not a terminus wherein the full result of the ascent is already gained.” *Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 21 (A.D. 251). *
“Therefore, my beloved, we also have received of the Spirit of Christ, and Christ dwelleth in us, as it is written that the Spirit said this through the month of the Prophet: --I will dwell in them and will walk in them. Therefore let us prepare our temples for the Spirit of Christ, and let us not grieve it that it may not depart from us. Remember the warning that the Apostle gives us:–Grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby ye have been sealed unto the day of redemption. For from baptism do we receive the Spirit of Christ … And whatever man there is that receives the Spirit from the water (of baptism) and grieves it, it departs from him until he dies, and returns according to its nature to Christ, and accuses that man of having grieved it.” *Aphrahat, Demonstrations, 6:14 (A.D. 345). *
*). *
“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” *Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 10 ( A.D. 110). *
“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” *Didache, 16 (A.D. 90). *
“And as many of them, he added, as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish…Yet they also, being naturally good, on hearing my commandments, purified themselves, and soon repented. Their dwelling, accordingly, was in the tower. But if any one relapse into strife, he will be east out of the tower, and will lose his life.” *Hermas, The Shephard, 3:8:7 (A.D. 155). *
“[T]hat eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” *Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1 (A.D. 156). *
“Now, in the beginning the spirit was a constant companion of the soul, but the spirit forsook it because it was not willing to follow. Yet, retaining as it were a spark of its power, though unable by reason of the separation to discern the perfect, while seeking for God it fashioned to itself in its wandering many gods, following the sophistries of the demons. But the Spirit of God is not with all, but, taking up its abode with those who live justly, and intimately combining with the soul, by prophecies it announced hidden things to other souls.” Tatian the Syrian, To the Greeks, 13 (A.D. 175).
“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” *Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 (A.D. 180). *
“But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwilling. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? Is not this gift taken away from many?” *Tertullian, On Repentance, 6 (A.D. 204). *
“Confession is the beginning of glory, not the full desert of the crown; nor does it perfect our praise, but it initiates our dignity; and since it is written, ‘He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved,’ whatever has been before the end is a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation, not a terminus wherein the full result of the ascent is already gained.” *Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 21 (A.D. 251). *
“Therefore, my beloved, we also have received of the Spirit of Christ, and Christ dwelleth in us, as it is written that the Spirit said this through the month of the Prophet: --I will dwell in them and will walk in them. Therefore let us prepare our temples for the Spirit of Christ, and let us not grieve it that it may not depart from us. Remember the warning that the Apostle gives us:–Grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby ye have been sealed unto the day of redemption. For from baptism do we receive the Spirit of Christ … And whatever man there is that receives the Spirit from the water (of baptism) and grieves it, it departs from him until he dies, and returns according to its nature to Christ, and accuses that man of having grieved it.” *Aphrahat, Demonstrations, 6:14 (A.D. 345). *
*). *
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E.E.N.S
Guest
“Thou art made partaker of the Holy Vine. Well then, if thou abide in the Vine, thou growest as a fruitful branch; but if thou abide not, thou wilt be consumed by the fire. Let us therefore bear fruit worthily. God forbid that in us should be done what befell that barren fig-tree, that Jesus come not even now and curse us for our barrenness.” *Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, I:4 (A.D. 350). *
“It is the Spirit then which is in God, and not we viewed in our own selves; and as we are sons and gods because of the Word in us, so we shall be in the Son and in the Father, and we shall be accounted to have become one in Son and in Father, because that that Spirit is in us, which is in the Word which is in the Father. When then a man falls from the Spirit for any wickedness, if he repent upon his fall, the grace remains irrevocably to such as are willing; otherwise he who has fallen is no longer in God (because that Holy Spirit and Paraclete which is in God has deserted him), but the sinner shall be in him to whom he has subjected himself, as took place in Saul’s instance; for the Spirit of God departed from him and an evil spirit was afflicting him.” *Athanasius, Discourse Against the Arians, 3:25 (A.D. 362). *
“Clerics who are guilty of the sin unto death are degraded from their order, but not excluded from the communion of the laity.” *Basil, To Amphilochius, Letter 199:32 (A.D. 375). *
“This temple is holier than that; for it glistened not with gold and silver, but with the grace of the Spirit, and in place of the ark and the cherubim, it had Christ, and His Father, and the Paraclete seated within. But now all is changed, and the temple is desolate, and bare of its former beauty and comeliness, unadorned with its divine and unspeakable adornments, destitute of all security and protection; it has neither door nor bolt, and is laid open to all manner of soul-destroying and shameful thoughts; and if the thought of arrogance or fornication, or avarice, or any more accursed than these, wish to enter in there is no one to hinder them; whereas formerly, even as the Heaven is inaccessible to all these, so also was the purity of thy soul.” *John Chrysostom, To the Fallen Theodore, Letter 1 (A.D. 378). *
“But these sins were not after Baptism, you will say. Where is your proof? Either prove it–or refrain from condemning; and if there be any doubt, let charity prevail. But Novatus, you say, would not receive those who lapsed in the persecution. What do you mean by this? If they were unrepentant he was right; I too would refuse to receive those who either would not stoop at all or not sufficiently, and who would refuse to make their amendment counterbalance their sin; and when I do receive them, I will assign them their proper place; but if he refused those who wore themselves away with weeping, I will not imitate him.” *Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration on the Holy Lights, 39:19 (A.D. 381). *
“Let us admonish each other. Let us correct each other, that we may not go to the other world as debtors, and then, needing to borrow of others, suffer the fate of the foolish virgins, and fall from immortal salvation.” John Chrysostom, Concerning Statues, 21 (A.D. 387).
“Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him? ‘You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins.’” *Jerome, Against Jovianus, 2:30 (A.D. 393). *
“It is the Spirit then which is in God, and not we viewed in our own selves; and as we are sons and gods because of the Word in us, so we shall be in the Son and in the Father, and we shall be accounted to have become one in Son and in Father, because that that Spirit is in us, which is in the Word which is in the Father. When then a man falls from the Spirit for any wickedness, if he repent upon his fall, the grace remains irrevocably to such as are willing; otherwise he who has fallen is no longer in God (because that Holy Spirit and Paraclete which is in God has deserted him), but the sinner shall be in him to whom he has subjected himself, as took place in Saul’s instance; for the Spirit of God departed from him and an evil spirit was afflicting him.” *Athanasius, Discourse Against the Arians, 3:25 (A.D. 362). *
“Clerics who are guilty of the sin unto death are degraded from their order, but not excluded from the communion of the laity.” *Basil, To Amphilochius, Letter 199:32 (A.D. 375). *
“This temple is holier than that; for it glistened not with gold and silver, but with the grace of the Spirit, and in place of the ark and the cherubim, it had Christ, and His Father, and the Paraclete seated within. But now all is changed, and the temple is desolate, and bare of its former beauty and comeliness, unadorned with its divine and unspeakable adornments, destitute of all security and protection; it has neither door nor bolt, and is laid open to all manner of soul-destroying and shameful thoughts; and if the thought of arrogance or fornication, or avarice, or any more accursed than these, wish to enter in there is no one to hinder them; whereas formerly, even as the Heaven is inaccessible to all these, so also was the purity of thy soul.” *John Chrysostom, To the Fallen Theodore, Letter 1 (A.D. 378). *
“But these sins were not after Baptism, you will say. Where is your proof? Either prove it–or refrain from condemning; and if there be any doubt, let charity prevail. But Novatus, you say, would not receive those who lapsed in the persecution. What do you mean by this? If they were unrepentant he was right; I too would refuse to receive those who either would not stoop at all or not sufficiently, and who would refuse to make their amendment counterbalance their sin; and when I do receive them, I will assign them their proper place; but if he refused those who wore themselves away with weeping, I will not imitate him.” *Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration on the Holy Lights, 39:19 (A.D. 381). *
“Let us admonish each other. Let us correct each other, that we may not go to the other world as debtors, and then, needing to borrow of others, suffer the fate of the foolish virgins, and fall from immortal salvation.” John Chrysostom, Concerning Statues, 21 (A.D. 387).
“Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him? ‘You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins.’” *Jerome, Against Jovianus, 2:30 (A.D. 393). *
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E.E.N.S
Guest
“And, consequently, both those who have not heard the gospel, and those who, having heard it and been changed by it for the better, have not received perseverance, and those who, having heard the gospel, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe on Him, since He Himself says, ‘No man cometh unto me, except it were given him of my Father,’ and those who by their tender age were unable to believe, but might be absolved from original sin by the sole layer of regeneration, and yet have not received this laver, and have perished in death: are not made to differ from that lump which it is plain is condemned, as all go from one into condemnation.” *Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 12 (A.D. 427). *
"The faith of these, which worketh by love, either actually does not fail at all, or, if there are any whose faith fails, it is restored before their life is ended, and the iniquity which had intervened is done away, and perseverance even to the end is allotted to them. But they who are not to persevere, and who shall so fall away from Christian faith and conduct that the end of this life shall find them in that case, beyond all doubt are not to be reckoned in the number of these, even in that season wherein they are living well and piously. For they are not made to differ from that mass of perdition by the foreknowledge and predestination of God, and therefore are not called according to God’s purpose, and thus are not elected.” *Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 16 (A.D. 427). *
“It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also.” *Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 18 (A.D. 427). *
“Let the inquirer still go on, and say, ‘Why is it that to some who have in good faith worshipped Him He has not given to persevere to the end?’ Why except because he does not speak falsely who says, ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, doubtless they would have continued with us.’ Are there, then, two natures of men? By no means. If there were two natures there would not be any grace, for there would be given a gratuitous deliverance to none if it were paid as a debt to nature. But it seems to men that all who appear good believers ought to receive perseverance to the end. But God has judged it to be better to mingle some who would not persevere with a certain number of His saints, so that those for whom security from temptation in this life is not desirable may not be secure.” *Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance, 19 (A.D. 429). *
“The manifold mercy of God so assists men when they fall, that not only by the grace of baptism but also by the remedy of penitence is the hope of eternal life revived, in order that they who have violated the gifts of the second birth, condemning themselves by their own judgment, may attain to remission of their crimes, the provisions of the Divine Goodness having so ordained that God’s indulgence cannot be obtained without the supplications of priests. For the Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, has transmitted this power to those that are set over the Church that they should both grant a course of penitence to those who confess, and, when they are cleansed by wholesome correction admit them through the door of reconciliation to communion in the sacraments.” *Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D. 440-461], To Theodore, Epistle 108:2 (A.D. 452). *
“The branches of the vine. Thus there are branches in the vine, not that they may bestow anything upon the vine, but that they may receive from it the means by which they may live…And by this it is an advantage to the disciples, not to Christ, that each have Christ abiding in him, and that each abide in Christ. For if the branch is cut off, another can sprout forth from the living root; but that which has been cut off, cannot live without the root.” *Council of Orange, Canon 24 (A.D. 529). *
"The faith of these, which worketh by love, either actually does not fail at all, or, if there are any whose faith fails, it is restored before their life is ended, and the iniquity which had intervened is done away, and perseverance even to the end is allotted to them. But they who are not to persevere, and who shall so fall away from Christian faith and conduct that the end of this life shall find them in that case, beyond all doubt are not to be reckoned in the number of these, even in that season wherein they are living well and piously. For they are not made to differ from that mass of perdition by the foreknowledge and predestination of God, and therefore are not called according to God’s purpose, and thus are not elected.” *Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 16 (A.D. 427). *
“It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also.” *Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 18 (A.D. 427). *
“Let the inquirer still go on, and say, ‘Why is it that to some who have in good faith worshipped Him He has not given to persevere to the end?’ Why except because he does not speak falsely who says, ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, doubtless they would have continued with us.’ Are there, then, two natures of men? By no means. If there were two natures there would not be any grace, for there would be given a gratuitous deliverance to none if it were paid as a debt to nature. But it seems to men that all who appear good believers ought to receive perseverance to the end. But God has judged it to be better to mingle some who would not persevere with a certain number of His saints, so that those for whom security from temptation in this life is not desirable may not be secure.” *Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance, 19 (A.D. 429). *
“The manifold mercy of God so assists men when they fall, that not only by the grace of baptism but also by the remedy of penitence is the hope of eternal life revived, in order that they who have violated the gifts of the second birth, condemning themselves by their own judgment, may attain to remission of their crimes, the provisions of the Divine Goodness having so ordained that God’s indulgence cannot be obtained without the supplications of priests. For the Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, has transmitted this power to those that are set over the Church that they should both grant a course of penitence to those who confess, and, when they are cleansed by wholesome correction admit them through the door of reconciliation to communion in the sacraments.” *Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D. 440-461], To Theodore, Epistle 108:2 (A.D. 452). *
“The branches of the vine. Thus there are branches in the vine, not that they may bestow anything upon the vine, but that they may receive from it the means by which they may live…And by this it is an advantage to the disciples, not to Christ, that each have Christ abiding in him, and that each abide in Christ. For if the branch is cut off, another can sprout forth from the living root; but that which has been cut off, cannot live without the root.” *Council of Orange, Canon 24 (A.D. 529). *
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Vincent1560 said:
Actually, Christ is telling us that no one can take us from Him, but this says nothing about us being able to turn our back on Him. He would never take away our free will.
Vincent1560 said:
True, He will not leave us “high and dry” but we must cooperate with His graces. Paul also tells us that we must persevere until the end…and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Vincent1560 said:
This doesn’t speak of any eternal security while here on earth, the key word used here is “hope” - what doesn’t fade away is our reward in heaven, but we must get there first.
Vincent1560 said:
Put this into context:
*26 Be angry, and sin not. Let not the sun go down upon your anger. 27 Give not place to the devil. 28 He that stole, let him now steal no more; but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have something to give to him that suffereth need. 29 Let no evil speech proceed from your mouth; but that which is good, to the edification of faith, that it may administer grace to the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and anger, and indignation, and clamour, and blasphemy, be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be ye kind one to another; merciful, forgiving one another, even as God hath forgiven you in Christ. *
You see, he is telling us to do away with sin, and not to give in to the devil’s temptations, and to persevere in good works, but to grieve not because we can do all things through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
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Vincent1560
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
I completley agree that slavation is a process and most of my evangelical friends agree. The scripture in my previous post concerning God continuing to do a good work in us until the day of Christ Jesus is very convincing on this point. And logically speaking, I am humble enough to admit that I am not presently perfect and ready to dwell in God’s perfect presence. What I mean by saved is the moment in time where you allow God to begin the process of your salvation by believing in Him and freely acknowledging him as Lord and Savior. And by eternal security I mean that assurance that once this process has begun it cannot be undone or fail to be completed (hence saved). You can slow it down through persistant sin (As long as the ‘old man’ is present some sin is unavoidable) and disobedience, and inhibit your ability to receive the rewards and joys that go to those who persevere without such stumblings. Furthermore you will experience much grief and unhappiness in this life by continuing in sin because there is no such thing as a happy and disobediant Christian because God will remain faithful to complete his work in you regardless of how painful it may be to break the shackles inhibiting your progress. I hope this helps clear up my view.
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Singinbeauty
Guest
Good Morning all!
I really like the turn this thread has taken. My thought, really quickly, on salvation is this… I don’t necessarily believe in the ‘once saved always saved’ concept but I don’t believe that works are what saves us either. I believe that if your heart is pure and you are truly out there seeking Christ you develop your faith and that, consequently, will lead to doing His will. We can turn from Him because we do have free will. But, like I said before, if you are pure in heart when seeking Him and you are faithful in finding Him (Those who truly seek Him will find Him) then doing His will will come almost, if not definitely, naturally. But the fact, in my book, remains… you only need to receive Him ONCE just like you only need to reject Him ONCE to put it into effect. And what I mean by receiving and rejecting Him is… to Receive Him is to receive the gift and accept it’s true power in your life that He presents to you. To Reject Him is to reject the gift of life and salvation by rejecting the thought that He truly is who He said/says He is. Rejection of Christ is not a matter of you sinning. You don’t reject Christ when you lie or hit someone but you do reject Him when you decide He doesn’t exist as who He claimed He IS. Am I making sense? I hope so… No sleep = blabberings
I really like the turn this thread has taken. My thought, really quickly, on salvation is this… I don’t necessarily believe in the ‘once saved always saved’ concept but I don’t believe that works are what saves us either. I believe that if your heart is pure and you are truly out there seeking Christ you develop your faith and that, consequently, will lead to doing His will. We can turn from Him because we do have free will. But, like I said before, if you are pure in heart when seeking Him and you are faithful in finding Him (Those who truly seek Him will find Him) then doing His will will come almost, if not definitely, naturally. But the fact, in my book, remains… you only need to receive Him ONCE just like you only need to reject Him ONCE to put it into effect. And what I mean by receiving and rejecting Him is… to Receive Him is to receive the gift and accept it’s true power in your life that He presents to you. To Reject Him is to reject the gift of life and salvation by rejecting the thought that He truly is who He said/says He is. Rejection of Christ is not a matter of you sinning. You don’t reject Christ when you lie or hit someone but you do reject Him when you decide He doesn’t exist as who He claimed He IS. Am I making sense? I hope so… No sleep = blabberings
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Thank you for trying to clear up your view, but I completely understand eternal security (as I used to believe it), but in the verses that you used to defend ES I find them lacking (as do the other verses commonly used to defend ES.) However, I find that Scripture as a whole (as well as the verses that I mentioned above) point overwhelmingly in the opposite direction. Why would Paul worry that he may have “run the race in vain?” Or why does the Lord tell us that “not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter into the kingdom of heaven?” We must remember that the letters of the New Testament were written to BELIEVERS, why then not mention eternal security? why mention over and over about perservering, and warnings, etc?
And if Scripture wasn’t clear enough, it is obvious that the earliest Christians surely didn’t believe in eternal security.
Thoughts like eternal security (OSAS), sola scriptura, sola fide, etc. are all fairly new and are based on trying to get away from the authority of the Church…they have nothing solid to stand one, no foundation.
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Vincent1560
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
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E.E.N.S
Guest
This is a fairly good understanding…however, remember this, the Church does not teach that works save us, but the go hand in hand with faith - one cannot have a true and living faith without works (faith without works is dead.) Works do not save us.
This sounds very close to OSAS, but with a slight twist, the rejection part, however, consider this, remember Our Lord asks, “why do you call me Lord if you do not keep my commandments?”But the fact, in my book, remains… you only need to receive Him ONCE just like you only need to reject Him ONCE to put it into effect. And what I mean by receiving and rejecting Him is… to Receive Him is to receive the gift and accept it’s true power in your life that He presents to you. To Reject Him is to reject the gift of life and salvation by rejecting the thought that He truly is who He said/says He is. Rejection of Christ is not a matter of you sinning. You don’t reject Christ when you lie or hit someone but you do reject Him when you decide He doesn’t exist as who He claimed He IS. Am I making sense? I hope so… No sleep = blabberings
Glad to have you back!
B
BibleReader
Guest
Hi, singinbeauty.Ok, I know that just by seeing the title to this thread some of you are rolling the eyes or steaming out the ears… Please hear me out…
I would like YOUR interpretation as to who Mary was and what role she played when she walked this earth. Who you think the bible says she is and what convinced you of this.
Thank you! I am not trying to attack I just have always been curious. I know what I have heard catholics think of her but I want to hear it from the horses mouth before I go spouting off something that isn’t true.
There is great disagreement among Catholics on Marian theology.
Most blithely assume that Mary simply gave birth to Jesus in the traditional way, and that she was like you and me. However, many assume that her Immaculate Conception made her an almost “mystical” being from whom Jesus sort of “beamed down” in a mystical way, in the Nativity. Many believe that she could not feel pain in giving birth, because of her Immaculate Conception. One group as to whom I mentored Bible study had trouble answering the question, “Could Mary stub her toe?”
Even the Magisterium of the Catholic Church seems contradictory on the subject. There are many verses in the Bible bearing on the subject. They seem to infer Mary’s birth was perfectly normal – not mystical, not miraculous. Yet, there are Magisterial pronouncements which seem to squarely attack the Magisterium’s own Biblical allegations.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.E.N.S.
*Actually, Christ is telling us that no one can take us from Him, but this says nothing about us being able to turn our back on Him. He would never take away our free will.
**I disagree. I believe it is like the situation with angels. I believe I am correct in stating that Catholics also believe that the angels who di not join Satan in his rebellion are no longer capable of falling. Another example would be that once we are in heaven, I don’t know of any Christians who believe we can lose our citizenship so to speak. In both cases free willed beings are not able to fall out of God’s grace. ***
You are talking about once we are in heaven here - that is completely different than being here amidst the spiritual battle that we are in. Don’t confuse the two.
True, He will not leave us “high and dry” but we must cooperate with His graces. Paul also tells us that we must persevere until the end…and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
**
I agree to an extent. We must cooperate through the act of becoming saved, saving faith, provided it is real, must eventually produce real fruit and growth, otherwise it was not real faith to begin with. Furthermore verses like 1st Corinthians 3:11-15
and Romans chapter 6 emphasise the need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling regardless of wether said salvation is a sure thing. ***
You are not effectively arguing the side of ES here…this sounds more like an argument for sola fide…
It can be a glorious moment or an escape as through fire.
Ohhh, you sound like you might be describing Purgatory here.
This doesn’t speak of any eternal security while here on earth, the key word used here is “hope” - what doesn’t fade away is our reward in heaven, but we must get there first.
I believe hope in this context is the hope that comes with faith, namely that the scriptures and promises of Christ are true. If it was certainty it would not be faith, and thus faith and hope are part of the same thing. It is like saying I put my hope and trust in Christ and in heaven being real. If you are absolutely certain of something you don’t need to hope, and hope and faith are recognitions of truths that cannot be proved in the traditional sense, but nevertheless have strong evidence in their favor.
This does not have to be mutually exclusive I guess, but none the less it surely doesn’t point to eternal security…again you seem to be arguing for sola fide.
Put this into context:
*26 Be angry, and sin not. Let not the sun go down upon your anger. 27 Give not place to the devil. 28 He that stole, let him now steal no more; but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have something to give to him that suffereth need. 29 Let no evil speech proceed from your mouth; but that which is good, to the edification of faith, that it may administer grace to the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and anger, and indignation, and clamour, and blasphemy, be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be ye kind one to another; merciful, forgiving one another, even as God hath forgiven you in Christ. *
You see, he is telling us to do away with sin, and not to give in to the devil’s temptations, and to persevere in good works, but to grieve not because we can do all things through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I do not believe our interpretations are mutually exclusive.
However, the context still stresses the case to be holy and to persevere, only when taken out of context does verse 30 give any reference to eternal security.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Vincent, we should move this topic to another thread, lol.
I moved it here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=70264
I moved it here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=70264
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Singinbeauty
Guest
Ok, I may sound really ignorant here but ‘OSAS’?
We also chastize our children and ask them why do they say that they love us if they disobey us. We know that deep down the do love us but we want to get the message across of what their actions say about how they view us. Our Lord did not say ‘You do not believe in me by your actions’ He was just making the point that actions speak louder than words.
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