Mary's place in the Catholic Church-Is it too high?

[martino]

Mary is place right where she should be because she was put there by God, not by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church only recognizes God’s beautiful work.

Mary is a creature like the rest of us, her place is rightly below that of her son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Because of her unique role she is above the apostles and the rest of the disciples. The Catholic Church had nothing to do with the role that Mary was to play in salvation history.

Some people give the Church too much credit by assuming the Catholic Church designed creation. She did no such thing, only God can do that!

 

[justcatholic]

Mary is the Mother of God and ever virgin. But she also was very human, not divine. Unfortunately, Mary in some parts of the Catholic world has almost become a goddess of sorts. In some parts of the world more statues are displayed than Jesus. More prayers are said to her than Jesus. More apparitions and miracles are attributed to her than Jesus ever performed.
An early writing in church tradition states Mary was taken to heaven after she died. The church in 1954 acknowledged this as a fact. But surprisingly, only that account is used for evidence. Very little of authentic writings supporting the Assumption of Mary are unknown, if any? Very little in written church history can be found. I personally believe Jesus himself came and raised his Mom to immortality, but not as a Queen of heaven. For the reign of heaven lies with God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. All the angels and saints **serve ** God, but do not rule with him. That is my take on all this.

 

[scylla]

A real big difference to note is the way Catholics worship…

The Mass is the ultimate in worship, if you ever get a chance to check one out, you’ll see. The whole mass is focused on Christ, everyone united in worship of God. A good thing to do is check out some articles on the Mass explaining the scripture behind it and how Catholics participate in worshipping God.
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0109sbs.asp
This is just one small article on the Mass.

Now prayer can be just talking to someone, asking and so forth that, Catholics even have gone and classified prayer for further understanding, someone else might mention this but I am a little short on time so I will just quickly list them.

latria, dulia, hyperdulia
Here is a link catholic.com/library/saint_worship.asp

So it mostly boils down to perception. We as Catholics believe that loving someone in addition to Jesus just brings more glory to Jesus, in an example, me caring for my wife’s family shows my love for her.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[CheesusPowerKid]

april_hosen:

I do not deny Mary was a great tool in Gods plan,
But I beginning to believe the Catholic Church is falling into worshiping the creation not the Creator. I dont understand why you praise her so much. She gave birth to Christ, and mothered Him to the best of her ability. She didnt die for us or take upon our sin. She didnt rise from the dead. Why give her so much praise? I am not picking on the Catholic religion or anything. Just trying to understand is all.

it’s a good question. remember that we hold Mary on no plane close to God, and we do not worship her…we ask for her prayers and intercession as she was the human most closest to Christ as his mother on earth and is now next to Him in Heaven. she is also the best Christian role model…she’s the first Christian, she was a servent of Christ from before His birth, she nursed and cared for Him, she lived a sinless existance following ceaselessly by His side. She was called blessed by God before she was even born! Find someone in your life, alive or dead, whose faith you admire more than anything in the world, and whose connection with Christ is something you yearn for everyday…that is Mary to us, and truly who she should be to all people. She is not Christ, certainly not, she was not the savior and she is not Lord…but she is the perfect servent of God, and that is something we all should strive for. who better to admire than her?

 

[puzzleannie]

yeah, maybe, but nobody wants to be the one to tell Jesus, hey, we’re demoting your mom!

 

[RyanL]

April,

A guy named St. Luis deMontfort wrote a book called “True Marian Devotion”, and he has been heralded by several popes because of the wonderful way he explains our love for her. A link was posted to this work earlier, but I thought I’d share a snippet of what True Marian Devotion consists of. Let me know if this seems rediculous to you.

1. With the whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since he alone can say, “I am he who is”. Consequently, this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them.

 15. However, I declare that, considering things as they are, because God     has decided to begin and accomplish his greatest works through the Blessed Virgin ever     since he created her, we can safely believe that he will not change his plan in the time     to come, for he is God and therefore does not change in his thoughts or his way of acting.

 16. God the Father gave his only Son to the world only through Mary.     Whatever desires the patriarchs may have cherished, whatever entreaties the prophets and     saints of the Old Law may have had for 4,000 years to obtain that treasure, it was Mary     alone who merited it and found grace before God by the power of her prayers and the     perfection of her virtues. "The world being unworthy," said Saint Augustine,     "to receive the Son of God directly from the hands of the Father, he gave his Son to     Mary for the world to receive him from her."

 The Son of God became man for our salvation but only in Mary and through     Mary.

 God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus Christ in Mary but only after having     asked her consent through one of the chief ministers of his court.

Does this make a little more sense?

God bless you,
RyanL

 

[antiaphrodite]

when people say, “sure Mary was the mother of Jesus, but…” it seems to me they don’t understand what it means to have the Second Person in the Trinity be born into the world through you. “Oh, God the Son was born through Mary. Great.” it’s almost like Jesus is “just another human baby.”

 

[Kyenta]

Our Beautiful Blessed Mother is exactly where she should be: by her Son Our Lord Jesus Christ. I love her so much and it is very sad that people spend so much of their time trying to put her down. Do they actually think this endears them to Christ?

St. Bernard said,** “Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the great praise we lavish on the Mother; for the more She is honored, the greater is the glory of Her Son”.

“There can be no doubt, that whatever we say in praise of the Mother is equally in praise of the Son.”**

The honor we give to the Blessed Mother is honor bestowed on Jesus, Her Son.

Yours in Christ

 

[Shlemele]

Speaking as a protestant I would say that one of the most common min-conceptions among Christians (both Protestant and Catholic) is that Mary is worshiped as a god on the same level or higher than Jesus/God. I have seen 2 threads on it since I have been on these boards and I haven’t been here too long. The thing that jumps out in my mind is that verse about causing others to fall. Mary is a big part of Hispanic culture and living my first 18 years in a predominantly Mexican/Catholic city I often heard people say that they pray to Mary so they aren’t Christian (and yes I know this is totally against what the church teaches but it is what many people believe).

We protestants believe that Mary was the most pure vessel in the time that Christ came to earth but since original sin doesn’t really fit into the protestant picture we see her as someone more holy than any other in her time and greatly favored by God. As for her never committing a sin, well we believe that only Christ did that. I have heard it said on these boards that she couldn’t have sin because Jesus couldn’t have sin. Well Jesus came to a world full of sin, I don’t think that he was overly squeamish about it. He hung out with the lowest of the low in his time, tax collectors, cheats, and prostitutes.

The law of the time was a Band-Aid for sin, Jesus was the doctor who sews the soul back up. The fact of the matter is that although possibly a great anesthesiologist Mary isn’t the doctor. If you go into surgery who do you thank when it goes well, the surgeon or the anesthesiologist? Of course you realize that the one who has done the work and saved you from pain or death is the doctor. Of course the anesthesiologist played her part but it is worthless without the doctor (I hope that analogy works). In this context we see that Mary although close to the creator is the created. She no doubt knew the human side of God better than anyone else in history but she doesn’t have the power to forgive sin.

The problem for Protestants in this context is that a human is placed to God status many times. People believe that she can bend the ear of God. This is a good topic for another thread but why will petitioning Mary or the other saints who are finite beings change the will of an all knowing and all understanding God? What it boils down to for most other protestants I know is that Mary although a great example for us to follow is a being like us and setting he so close to Christ is misleading for those who blur the line between the creator and the created.

 

[RyanL]

Shlemele:

… is that Mary is worshiped as a god on the same level or higher than Jesus/God… living my first 18 years in a predominantly Mexican/Catholic city…I have heard it said on these boards that she couldn’t have sin because Jesus couldn’t have sin. … She no doubt knew the human side of God better than anyone else in history but she doesn’t have the power to forgive sin…People believe that she can bend the ear of God. This is a good topic for another thread but why will petitioning Mary or the other saints who are finite beings change the will of an all knowing and all understanding God?

I have to get going to mass in a couple of minutes, so I’ll address this briefly (and probably not well).

1. I live in a predominantly Mexican/Catholic city, and I myself am predominantly Mexican/Catholic. The things of which you speak do happen, but by people who don’t know their faith. A similar problem is the incorporation of new age things into American Protestantism. I can’t get too into it, but if you’ve seen any yoga/health nuts/extreme PETA members/etc., you can see how these things are placing other gods before God.
2. I believe that anyone can bend the ear of God. I also believe that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. I also believe that we are One Body in Christ, and Christ removed the sting of death. I believe we are not separated from the body by death, and I believe we are commanded to pray for members of the Body. Will they change the will of God? No more so than a loving 2 year old will change the will of her father, or all of his beloved children asking in unison with love and right intention.
3. Mary cannot forgive sin. You are right.
4. What do you mean by “human side”? As far as I know, I don’t have a “human side” and a “soul side”. If you know me, you know me. Mary knew Jesus like no one ever has or ever will.

I have to go, and may perhaps post more later, but may Go bless you and keep you, and thank you for your reasonable tone,
RyanL

 

[Shlemele]

4. What do you mean by “human side”? As far as I know, I don’t have a “human side” and a “soul side”. If you know me, you know me. Mary knew Jesus like no one ever has or ever will.

Sorry I should have been clearer here. I was talking about Jesus and the triniy. Jesus is part of God, he speaks of his father and the holy spirit so these are parts of God that are seperate and yet part of him. Jesus is God in the flesh but while Jesus is God he is also fully man and seperate from God the father and the Holy spirit. That is what I was refering to was that Mary knew the “Jesus side” of God and the holy spirit only after it had been given the deciples.

 

[RyanL]

Shlemele:

…what I was refering to was that Mary knew the “Jesus side” of God and the holy spirit only after it had been given the deciples…[bold added]

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Shlemele,

This is prior to Pentecost, and is ***how ***Mary conceives Jesus. Unless you have an alternate explaination of how Mary conceived, I think you may have to ammend your chronology of when Mary knew the Holy Spirit.

Also, as a metaphysical absolute and by nature of the Blessed Trinity, where one is all three are present. If Mary knew Jesus like no one else ever has or ever will, she knew God as no one else ever has or ever will.

God bless,
RyanL

 

[april_hosen]

Genesis315:

She’s the model Christian. When you think about it WWJD might be more true as WWMD. Our job is to follow Christ and have faith in Him. No one has done this better than Mary. She heard the word and kept it better than anyone. Jesus loving Himself or offering up His day to Himself doesn’t really make sense. Mary on the other hand, is in our position. We can see that you don’t have to be a God-man to be a perfect Christian and walk in Christ’s footsteps (as she did both figuratively and literally).

Plus, it’s not a small deal that she is His mother. God chose to become man through her–of all the people since the beginning of time, God chose her. That’s huge. God chose to literally dwell within her for nine months and to take His nourishment from her. This didn’t just last for 9 months. He also submitted to her like a faithful son for 30 years. Think about it. Most people back then went out on their own at a young age. Not Jesus. He stayed with Mary alone that whole time (Joseph is traditionally believed to have died at some point during those years). This is also a big deal.

Plus, she is the ark of the new covenant. Look how the OT people treated the old arc–and that nthing was just a box. Mary is so much greater than that thing that it makes sense that we would honor her more.

Finally, devotion to Mary does not take away from Jesus. Are they in competion with each other? Of course not. Jesus loves her as much now has He did when on Earth. A good so likes to see His mother receive praise–especially if she’s so humble. Plus, do you think she keeps anything for herself? Of course not. She gives everything to her Son. So all the honor she gets, she gives ten-fold to her Son. We should always give our best to Jesus just like the Jews gave God a good lamb, not a blind or lame one. If we offer up our thoughts and deeds to Jesus through Mary, she gives them to Him with her undefiled hands–it makes our offering that much more pure than if we had offered it straight from our sin stained souls. Not that it’s not appreciated and loved by Jesus, but if we can make our offering better, why not?

Anyway, hope that helps.

Okay,
All this stuff about Mary, where is it in the Bible that we are to exalt her, praise her, or pray to her? Where in the Bible does it even suggest that?

 

[april_hosen]

CheesusPowerKid:

she lived a sinless existance following ceaselessly by His side. QUOTE]
Hey Britty,
Okay, where in the Bible does it suggest that she lived a sinless life? If anything it suggests she didnt. She said she needed Savior. People who are sinless dont need Saviors. Furthermore, if she was without sin she wouldnt need God. She would be her own God. But Jesus died for her too. SO she cant be sinless. I know this is a touchy topic. I really shouldnt be bringing this up considering I’m the only Protestant. But this doesnt make sense to me. I’m not trying to present myself as anti-Catholic, I’m just presenting my beliefs.

 

[E.E.N.S]

april_hosen:

She said she needed Savior. People who are sinless dont need Saviors…

She did need a savior - only she was saved PRIOR to sinning (she was kept from sin), so she should be even more grateful…
(I believe someone on here posted the story about falling in the hole…?)

 

[Edwin1961]

April,
I am raw in my apologetics but let me start this point, and if someone else wants to help me that is fine.

We pray (ask) Mary for help. We find this in the account of the Wedding Feast of Cana.
Jesus did not want to first help with the lack of wine.
Jesus, knowing all things, knew that HIS mother would ask for help. SINCE Jesus was Jewish, and to Honor Thy Father and Mother, Jesus couldn not refuse the request of HIS mother.

May also knew this and told the wine servants, ‘To DO whatever he tells you.’

Mary,now in Heaven, in an intercessor for us. This is why we ask her to ask HER SON for a prayer request. Just like when we ask family, and friends to pray for our prayer requests, Mary is in the BEST positon in Heaven to ask her SON for us.

In Revelation, I think Chapter 5, the bowls of incense, which is the prayers from earth, are presented up to the Altar of God.

I how these examples help you.

 

[RyanL]

april_hosen:

Okay,
All this stuff about Mary, where is it in the Bible that we are to exalt her, praise her, or pray to her? Where in the Bible does it even suggest that?

April, my friend,

Would you please read Rev 11:19-12:17 and let me know what you think is going on? Also, don’t use your footnotes (they’re probably very biased). Just read the words, think about who each person is, and let me know what you think is going on.

Looking forward to your response,
RyanL

 

[barsapp]

april_hosen:

All this stuff about Mary, where is it in the Bible that we are to exalt her, praise her, or pray to her? Where in the Bible does it even suggest that?

As the Mystical Body of Christ, the Holy Catholic Church is built on three unbendable pillars: Scriptures, Tradition and Magisterium. If you want to have an answer only based on the Bible, you are going to have an incomplete (and false) answer…

 

[On_my_way]

april_hosen:

Okay,
All this stuff about Mary, where is it in the Bible that we are to exalt her, praise her, or pray to her? Where in the Bible does it even suggest that?

April, sound like you hold Mary as of having no significance. Catholics do not adore Mary, as some people think. We venerate and honor her. The Angel, Gabriel called her “FULL OF GRACE” and the one who has “FOUND FAVOR WITH GOD.” Her own cousin Elizabeth called her “BLESSED AMONG WOMEN.” Catholics, who follow Scripture, always call her blessed.

When we pray to Mary we are asking for her help. Let me put it to you this way. If you were moving and knew a woman and knew that she had a Son that had a truck, but you did not know the son that well. Wouldn’t you ask the woman to see if she could talk to her Son and see if He could help you. It is the same thing that Catholics do with Mary.

As for your comment about Mary being sinless and not needing a Savior. Mary was saved by the merits of Christ, just as we are. The difference between Mary and other Christians is that her salvation from sin was more perfect. Catholics are freed from original sin at our baptism. Mary was preserved from original sin at her conception. In both cases Jesus is still the Savior.

 

[dcdurel]

april_hosen:

Okay,
All this stuff about Mary, where is it in the Bible that we are to exalt her, praise her, or pray to her? Where in the Bible does it even suggest that?

Jesus said to listen to His Church and believe the Gospel His Church taught. He did not say to believe a Gospel based on our guesswork of scripture verses. Now the Gospel that the apostles, the leaders of His Church, taught and preached is NOT recorded anywhere is scripture. But, it was handed down to the Church, and to their successors, and it is summarized in the Catechism and this Gospel says we should honor Mary, and pray to her.
Now, that we know the teaching of the Gospel which says we should honor Mary and the saints and pray to them, we can find evidence of it in the bible.
First, lets look up why we should honor those in heaven.
First, the bible says to honor those who serve the Lord.
Notice that to enter heaven, we must honor those who fear the Lord.
------------- Psalms 15:1 ------------- 1. A Psalm of David. O LORD, who shall sojourn in thy tent?Who shall dwell on thy holy hill? . . . 4… but who honors those who fear the LORD;

Further, the bible says over and over, that whatever we do to the least of the members of the Church, we do to Jesus. Remember when Paul was knocked to the ground, and he said who are you? and Jesus said, I am the Lord who you are persecuting. Yet Paul was only persecuting the members of the Church. But the members of the Church are the body of Christ. Thus, whatever we do to the least of these, we do to Jesus. If we persecute a member of the Church, we are persecuting Jesus, If we honor a member of the Church, we are honoring Jesus.
Should we NOT honor the holy members of the Church, thus NOT honor Jesus, or should we honor the holy members of the Church, and thus honor Jesus? If we fail to honor those who fear the Lord, then we are failing to honor Jesus himself.
The word of God also says,
“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching” 1Ti 5:17
If the elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, then what about the Mother of God who was perfect in her love of God?
If we are supposed to follow God’s example, because everything God does is good, then we could never give enough honor to Mary. Because of all the people in the history of civilization, He chose her to be His mother. What greater honor could God have done for her then to choose her to be His Mother?
Now, if we are to follow God’s example and honor Mary, then how in the world can we even honor her a fraction of how God honored her by choosing her to be His mother? We can’t. It is impossible to honor her more than God has done. Yet, we must follow God’s example and do the best we can. Of course, Satan honors no one who serves the Lord.
What are Protestants taught to do? Follow the example of Satan who refuses to honor those who serve the Lord, or follow God’s example when it comes to honoring Mary.