Mary's place in the Catholic Church-Is it too high?

[FuzzyBunny116]

april_hosen:

I have actually read the Catechism,
Its very long! A little confusing at times too. Its odd that you’d say that Catholics are very intone with the Bible. I dont doubt that. Its just a lot of the ex-Catholics I’ve talked to said that during Mass they hardly ever needed their Bibles. Also about us needing guidlines, I thought that was what the Bible was for. Just some thoughts! Thanks for your time and post! May God Bless you.

I imagine any ex-Catholics you were talking to were asleep. Or went to a very poor Church. We have a reading at each Mass from the OT, the Gospels, and from all the various letters (and I assume Revelation) in the NT. I once heard that if you attend daily Mass, you will hear the whole Bible in three years. I went to a Methodist and Greek Orthodox service/Mass, and if I remember correctly, they had less Scripture than we did. Of course, the Orthodox Mass was in Greek for much of it, so I may have missed some. If they didn’t need their Bibles, it was probably because their church is like mine, where all the verses for each day are in another book that contains the songs and readings for each day.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

april_hosen:

Okay,
All this stuff about Mary, where is it in the Bible that we are to exalt her, praise her, or pray to her? Where in the Bible does it even suggest that?

Hello april-hosen;

The angel Gabriel exalted her when he greeted her with the title “Full of Grace.” Lk 1:28, 30.
The angel Gabriel specifically stated that she had “found favor with God.” Lk 1:30.
Elizabeth greeted her as the “most blessed among women.” Lk 1:42.
Elizabeth also gave her the title “Mother of my Lord.” Lk 1:43.
Mary proclaimed it herself when she stated: “all generations will call me blessed.” Lk 1:48.

In addition to the above…

I’d like to know if you ever thought/prayed about the prophecy of Simeon at the presentation of Jesus in the Temple, when he tells Mary - “and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” Lk 2:35.

Couldn’t Simeon be prophesying about Mary’s ongoing role in God’s plan for salvation. If so, then Scripture here acknowledges that Mary’s role is quite unique - to to point that her suffering is explicitly mentioned in Scripture. Isn’t Simeon’s comment to Mary a form of honor and even exaltation as well.

Please don’t be so quick to dismiss all of these express statements of and concerning Mary and her status as recognozed by the Church. Think about it. And pray about it.

Good luck with your quest for Truth.

 

[DianJo]

april_hosen:

If you wanna check it out the site is:
www.carm.org/catholic.htm
I dont think its anti-Catholic I just think its informative.

I am sorry to use such big, bold lettering but…so many people on this site have referenced the above website that I throw a gasget and my blood boils every time I see it printed!

**If there is a non-catholic on this site that wants to learn about Catholicism then stay here and DO NOT GO TO CARM!!! We will try, to the best of our ability, to teach you what you want to know about Catholicism - hopefully with love and patience. We want you to know the whole truth rather than some half baked truths and lies! **

This is one of the most anti-catholic sites I’ve had the misfortune of running across! They are virilent in their attacks on Catholics. The owner of the website DOES NOT HAVE CLUE AS TO WHAT HE’S “TEACHING” ABOUT CATHOLICISM! He takes Catholic teachings and twists them to mean what he wants them to mean! It infuriates me that there are people that would tell blatant lies about someone else’s faith without learning the truth!

PLEASE DO NOT VISIT THIS SITE! It is a waste of your time. Stay here where you can do some good and where you can either teach or learn the truth!

**Thanks for the rant! **

 

[DianJo]

Okay…Now that my previous rant is over! I’d like to make a (calm) comment on something.

April, you keep asking “where in the bible does it say…”
If you want to understand the Catholic perspective, you must first realize that Catholics are not bible Christians like yourself. Oh, we know and read and study our bibles but we do not need direct evidence of things from the bible.

The bible, April, is actually a Tradition of the Catholic Church. After Jesus left this earth, he sent the Holy Spirit to the Apostles to help them remember everything that He had taught them. The Apostles then taught it, by example and word of mouth (Tradition). The canon of scripture was not finalized until 382 AD at the Synod of Rome. Letters were being written by many followers of Christ so the NT letters were being formulated but there were also many heresies circulating. Therefore, the one authority on earth, the Catholic Church, determined what writings were canonical and which were not so as to preserve the truth of Christ - to stop the heresies and give people the truth.

Christianity was not founded on the bible, the bible came out of christianity, therefore the bible is not THE only source of truth. Our source of truth comes from Scripture, Tradition and the Magesterium - the teaching office of the Church charged with the correct interpretation of Jesus’ teachings. We look to her to tell us whether or not we’ve understood something from scripture correctly - it keeps us in line with the truth that was taught to us by Jesus and the Apostles.

Some things in the bible may be explicit, some maybe implict but there are many thousands (I would imagine) of theologians, scholars, priests, bishops, teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc. over the last 2000 years that have studied about the things that are discussed on this website. They have talked and debated and discussed and gone back to what the original Christians believed to see if what we believe is the same as the early Christians. We chose to stick with all those gone before us on matters of faith and the correct understandings rather than chance misunderstanding what God meant for us to know.

So, some things you ask will not be explicitly stated in the bible. The Church has come to conclusions over the centuries as our understanding and intellect expand that explain things like the Immaculate Conception. Their implict meanings are there in the bible. But, remember, Catholics take into consideration all that has gone before us, all the history, all the social and cultrual implications of Jewish rituals that are entwined with Catholic ceremony, all of it.

It’s not either / or - it’s both / and. If you start to realize how we see things, maybe it will be better for you to grasp our understanding of things a little better.

 

[bassman]

Mary is the proto-type Christain: her Immaculate Conception foreshadows the freedom from sin of all Christains; her Assumption foreshadows the Ressurection of all Christains. Is freedom from sin and the Ressurection too high in the Catholic Chruch?

 

[Dorothy]

Hi April,

<< Its odd that you’d say that Catholics are very intone with the Bible. I dont doubt that. Its just a lot of the ex-Catholics I’ve talked to said that during Mass they hardly ever needed their Bibles.>>

During Sunday Mass we have a reading from the Old Testament,
a Psalm, a reading from the New Testament (letters) and then the Gospel, which is also a reading from the New Testament. Surprising that the ex-Catholics you spoke to did not mention this.

Many of us go to Bible studies, and study on our own with the help of tapes, CD’s, and books. Also, the Liturgy of the Hours prayer book, used by many Catholics, is filled with Scripture.

<< Also about us needing guidlines, I thought that was what the Bible was for>>

Of course.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Dorothy]

<<This is one of the most anti-catholic sites I’ve had the misfortune of running across! They are virilent in their attacks on Catholics. The owner of the website DOES NOT HAVE CLUE AS TO WHAT HE’S “TEACHING” ABOUT CATHOLICISM! He takes Catholic teachings and twists them to mean what he wants them to mean! >>

Very true! When the true Catholic explanation is heard, it is far different from the one on carm.

 

[april_hosen]

bassman:

Mary is the proto-type Christain: her Immaculate Conception foreshadows the freedom from sin of all Christains; her Assumption foreshadows the Ressurection of all Christains. Is freedom from sin and the Ressurection too high in the Catholic Chruch?

Thats all well and good,
But do you understand that it wasnt Mary who freed us from our sin? Also, its important realise she did not ressurect us either. But also its important understand Mary was a great example of what Christians should look like. That is becoming clear.

 

[scylla]

Amen April, I totally believe what you say, as a Catholic that Mary did not free us from sin, nor did she resurrect us nor herself, everything is God’s doing. The Church in teaches that she needed a saviour, and the reason she is pure is because of Jesus, just like the reason we are saved is because of Jesus.
But that does not mean in any way we should not honor her or not called her blessed among women. Our love for others does not detract from our love of Jesus Christ, as we love her because of Jesus Christ. She points to Jesus.

As for ex-Catholics every ex-Catholic I have met couldn’t defend their faith and that is why they left, I can defend the Evangelical faith, but I have found a completion in the Catholic faith. I didn’t leave anything behind I rather accepted the fullness.

Though to be honest with you I kinda wanted to be wrong about the Catholic faith as it would have not required the commitment from me. Like many guys I am a little hesitant about commitment, but now I feel blessed to be Catholic and have no regrets.

God Bless
Scylla

P.S CARM kinda misrepresents the faith, this is like going to Japan to learn about English culture, or vice versa.

 

[april_hosen]

DianJo:

Okay…Now that my previous rant is over! I’d like to make a (calm) comment on something.

April, you keep asking “where in the bible does it say…”
If you want to understand the Catholic perspective, you must first realize that Catholics are not bible Christians like yourself. Oh, we know and read and study our bibles but we do not need direct evidence of things from the bible.

The bible, April, is actually a Tradition of the Catholic Church. After Jesus left this earth, he sent the Holy Spirit to the Apostles to help them remember everything that He had taught them. The Apostles then taught it, by example and word of mouth (Tradition). The canon of scripture was not finalized until 382 AD at the Synod of Rome. Letters were being written by many followers of Christ so the NT letters were being formulated but there were also many heresies circulating. Therefore, the one authority on earth, the Catholic Church, determined what writings were canonical and which were not so as to preserve the truth of Christ - to stop the heresies and give people the truth.

Christianity was not founded on the bible, the bible came out of christianity, therefore the bible is not THE only source of truth. Our source of truth comes from Scripture, Tradition and the Magesterium - the teaching office of the Church charged with the correct interpretation of Jesus’ teachings. We look to her to tell us whether or not we’ve understood something from scripture correctly - it keeps us in line with the truth that was taught to us by Jesus and the Apostles.

Some things in the bible may be explicit, some maybe implict but there are many thousands (I would imagine) of theologians, scholars, priests, bishops, teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc. over the last 2000 years that have studied about the things that are discussed on this website. They have talked and debated and discussed and gone back to what the original Christians believed to see if what we believe is the same as the early Christians. We chose to stick with all those gone before us on matters of faith and the correct understandings rather than chance misunderstanding what God meant for us to know.

So, some things you ask will not be explicitly stated in the bible. The Church has come to conclusions over the centuries as our understanding and intellect expand that explain things like the Immaculate Conception. Their implict meanings are there in the bible. But, remember, Catholics take into consideration all that has gone before us, all the history, all the social and cultrual implications of Jewish rituals that are entwined with Catholic ceremony, all of it.

It’s not either / or - it’s both / and. If you start to realize how we see things, maybe it will be better for you to grasp our understanding of things a little better.

Hello Sir/Mamn,
I love coming to this website, because I learn so much about Christian and Catholic history. So thank you for that. But a comment I have regarding you explicit/ implicit bit. A lot of what is seen as implicit in the Bible, usaully comes out to be explicit. Because it is mentioned various places throughout the Bible. So there’s my random two-cents. Also about your bit on the Bible. Just a question, where did you get your resources? Because I’ve never heard that before. Thank you for your time, posting & ranting

 

[april_hosen]

scylla:

Amen April, I totally believe what you say, as a Catholic that Mary did not free us from sin, nor did she resurrect us nor herself, everything is God’s doing. The Church in teaches that she needed a saviour, and the reason she is pure is because of Jesus, just like the reason we are saved is because of Jesus.
But that does not mean in any way we should not honor her or not called her blessed among women. Our love for others does not detract from our love of Jesus Christ, as we love her because of Jesus Christ. She points to Jesus.

As for ex-Catholics every ex-Catholic I have met couldn’t defend their faith and that is why they left, I can defend the Evangelical faith, but I have found a completion in the Catholic faith. I didn’t leave anything behind I rather accepted the fullness.

Though to be honest with you I kinda wanted to be wrong about the Catholic faith as it would have not required the commitment from me. Like many guys I am a little hesitant about commitment, but now I feel blessed to be Catholic and have no regrets.

God Bless
Scylla

P.S CARM kinda misrepresents the faith, this is like going to Japan to learn about English culture, or vice versa.

Thank you,
That really makes sense. Oh and about your “ps” I’ve been told .

 

[Dorothy]

April,

Here is a way that Mary can be described:

She is like a clear pane of glass, no smudges,-- where the clear, brilliant Light of the Holy Trinity can shine through. She has nothing by herself, everything is given to her by the Lord, and she knows it. Her soul “magnifies” the Lord. That is humility. We honor that, and are part of the generations that call her blessed, as it is written in Sacred Scripture.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[DianJo]

april_hosen:

Hello Sir/Mamn,
I love coming to this website, because I learn so much about Christian and Catholic history. So thank you for that. But a comment I have regarding you explicit/ implicit bit. A lot of what is seen as implicit in the Bible, usaully comes out to be explicit. Because it is mentioned various places throughout the Bible. So there’s my random two-cents. Also about your bit on the Bible. Just a question, where did you get your resources? Because I’ve never heard that before. Thank you for your time, posting & ranting

Hi April,
You can call me Diana. I promise I won’t rant!

Alot of people here do know their history - much better than I. An example of something being implicit in the bible is the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption of Mary. I don’t think you could say that those two subjects could be explicit anywhere in the bible. You might say that although the Trinity is not specifically mentioned as “the Trinity” in the bible; it is pretty explicit - but the word Trinity is not there. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not named as the Trinity. It is because of the early (Catholic) church fathers that you understand the concept of the Trinity. It is because of these same early church fathers that we understand the concept of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption as well because it was what was taught by these fathers early on and passed on through the generations.

The history part, well, there is a good book on that called appropriately, “The History of the Bible.” Don’t remember the author but it can be purchased from the CA catalogue. There are also some good tracts on the CA Library that deal with the history of the bible that can give you some basic info. Look under Scripture and Tradition. The bible was not formed until the 5th century as a bound “book” and it was formed by the Catholic Church and translated into Latin by St. Jerome in the early 400’s. So before that time, all we had were the writings of those who knew the Apostles and their immediate successors and their oral teachings.

The earliest Gospel of the NT wasn’t written until about 60-65 AD and I think some of Paul’s letters date from the 50’s AD. Revelation was not written until the 90’s AD - so where was the bible then? It didn’t exist yet. What people knew of the faith had been handed down by word of mouth (Tradition) and by the writings of those who knew the Apostles but these were letters written to specific churches for specific reasons. Usually for teaching a particular doctrine or for admonishing a church for moving away from the truth. This is where the NT scirpture came from. The Apostles and their successors (Bishops) were the ones to explain or interpret - to make sure we understood the Traditions and teachings as handed down to us by Jesus and the Apostles. They are now called the Magesterium - teaching office of the Church. This is where we turn when something is difficult to understand because they have held the same truths for 2000 years as originally handed down.

All of this is in the history of the Church. Get the book I mentioned and when you understand that we take in Tradition as well as Scripture with the truth as handed down by the Magesterium, then you’ll see all of the truth - not just that out of the bible alone.

 

[scylla]

Sorry for being redundant April, it is just that mis-representation of the Catholic Church rubs me the wrong way. So sorry again to act like you didn’t get it.

God bless you,
again,
Scylla

P.S
Did I tell you about CARM? J.K.

 

[april_hosen]

scylla:

Sorry for being redundant April, it is just that mis-representation of the Catholic Church rubs me the wrong way. So sorry again to act like you didn’t get it.

God bless you,
again,
Scylla

P.S
Did I tell you about CARM? J.K.

Scylla,
Think nothing of it! Obviousely you too have no favor towards CARM, because it misinterprets the Catholic Church as something to be avoided. Thats perfectly fine to defend your faith. But dont be like Peter and cut off the solidiers ear. Its noty ou personally who he is attacking.
P.s. Hey scylla, you should check out this great website! Its called CARM. (returning the joke)

 

[april_hosen]

DianJo:

Hi April,
You can call me Diana. I promise I won’t rant!

Alot of people here do know their history - much better than I. An example of something being implicit in the bible is the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption of Mary. I don’t think you could say that those two subjects could be explicit anywhere in the bible. You might say that although the Trinity is not specifically mentioned as “the Trinity” in the bible; it is pretty explicit - but the word Trinity is not there. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not named as the Trinity. It is because of the early (Catholic) church fathers that you understand the concept of the Trinity. It is because of these same early church fathers that we understand the concept of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption as well because it was what was taught by these fathers early on and passed on through the generations.

The history part, well, there is a good book on that called appropriately, “The History of the Bible.” Don’t remember the author but it can be purchased from the CA catalogue. There are also some good tracts on the CA Library that deal with the history of the bible that can give you some basic info. Look under Scripture and Tradition. The bible was not formed until the 5th century as a bound “book” and it was formed by the Catholic Church and translated into Latin by St. Jerome in the early 400’s. So before that time, all we had were the writings of those who knew the Apostles and their immediate successors and their oral teachings.

The earliest Gospel of the NT wasn’t written until about 60-65 AD and I think some of Paul’s letters date from the 50’s AD. Revelation was not written until the 90’s AD - so where was the bible then? It didn’t exist yet. What people knew of the faith had been handed down by word of mouth (Tradition) and by the writings of those who knew the Apostles but these were letters written to specific churches for specific reasons. Usually for teaching a particular doctrine or for admonishing a church for moving away from the truth. This is where the NT scirpture came from. The Apostles and their successors (Bishops) were the ones to explain or interpret - to make sure we understood the Traditions and teachings as handed down to us by Jesus and the Apostles. They are now called the Magesterium - teaching office of the Church. This is where we turn when something is difficult to understand because they have held the same truths for 2000 years as originally handed down.

All of this is in the history of the Church. Get the book I mentioned and when you understand that we take in Tradition as well as Scripture with the truth as handed down by the Magesterium, then you’ll see all of the truth - not just that out of the bible alone.

Hello Diana,
How do you do mamn? This is possibly for another thread or maybe there’s already been a thread about this. But if the Catholic Church originally put together or formed the Bible then, how come there’s a Catholic Bible and a regular NIV? Oh another thing, if the Bible was formed by Catholics,how come so many of the Caholic Traditions arent in the Bible? Sorry if you couldnt tell I’m pretty attatched to my Bible.

 

[CheesusPowerKid]

april_hosen:

Hello Diana,
How do you do mamn? This is possibly for another thread or maybe there’s already been a thread about this. But if the Catholic Church originally put together or formed the Bible then, how come there’s a Catholic Bible and a regular NIV? Oh another thing, if the Bible was formed by Catholics,how come so many of the Caholic Traditions arent in the Bible? Sorry if you couldnt tell I’m pretty attatched to my Bible.

April, you should DEFINITELY start another thread for this…trust me, you’ll get LOTS of answers

 

[MonicaC]

april_hosen:

Hello Diana,
How do you do mamn? This is possibly for another thread or maybe there’s already been a thread about this. But if the Catholic Church originally put together or formed the Bible then, how come there’s a Catholic Bible and a regular NIV? Oh another thing, if the Bible was formed by Catholics,how come so many of the Caholic Traditions arent in the Bible? Sorry if you couldnt tell I’m pretty attatched to my Bible.

Dear April,

I think we really should start another thread for this so I am going to because there is so much to say about this, and it looks like you don’t get on the computer until tonight. so look for it on another thread.

Monica

 

[LSK]

Zooey:

I think that we who are non-Catholic Christians are often guilty of not giving Mary a high enough place…Just a thought.

Gosh, Zooey, that took some courage to admit. I agree with you but I am Catholic and I often wonder why non-Catholics have such trouble with loving Jesus’ mother. I think it is because they believe we are putting her before Jesus or ABOVE Jesus - yet I always think of her place at the foot of the cross as the place all Christians should be, every day.

 

[Reid]

April,

I grew up Southern Baptist and just this past year I discovered the truth in the Catholic Church, I pray that you will continue to learn more about the Church and our traditions.

I know why you are here and I know that you are offended with some of our traditions and teachings. I encourage you to take it slow and pray that God will reveal the truth for you. This will be very hard for you but you need to stop trying to “save us” and continue to grow in your faith with Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church is the only Church that has continued to look back at the history and learn from it, tested science, philosphy and reason. Unlike your Church that follows one preacher or at some point founder of your particular denomination, the Catholics were founded by Christ in flesh and He promised the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

I am sure you go to a very good Christian church, but you need to stop judging our faith and beliefs and you need to make sure that you know why in your heart that you believe in what you do, I hope and pray that you will continue to grow as a Christian.

And if you believe that all you have to do is accept Jesus into your heart and ask for forgiveness of your sins and you are onced saved always saved then why does he tell us in the bible that the road to heaven is not an easy one and the gates are narrow?