Masterbation as an Alternative to Normal Sex

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And this is where you’re going wrong, this isn’t about judgments as has been stated many times. It’s about providing good, accurate information which is offered to help build the spirit of our fellow Christian’s.

The fact of the matter is, there is never any situation under which masturbation would not be considered sinful. If there is some reason why the (married) individual can’t have sex with their spouse, then a more positive approch is to maybe help figure out if there is anything that can be done about that situation. If there is nothing to be done, then more positive than “lock the door, do what you want, God won’t smite you” is to offer spiritual support for their situation, and help them to maintain their trust in God and his (and the Church’s) precept.

This isn’t a judgment, it’s promoting the truth of what God wants from us with regard to our sexuality. Promoting sin (which is what the example statement I used does) is never the right path.
You missed the point entirely. You’ll note that I was responding to a conversation where one person said basically that he had no sympathy for someone caught in a situation where sexual relations were no longer possible because he himself has not been able to have legitimate sex and didn’t masturbate and was doing just fine.

In short he was saying “since I can do it you can do it too”, which in essence is passing judgement on the person’s moral fortitude, and he was unwilling to consider the pressures the sinner’s situation had on his degree of culpability.

It is this legalism without mercy that drives me nuts and makes us appear as a bunch of Pharisees.
 
You missed the point entirely. You’ll note that I was responding to a conversation where one person said basically that he had no sympathy for someone caught in a situation where sexual relations were no longer possible because he himself has not been able to have legitimate sex and didn’t masturbate and was doing just fine.

In short he was saying “since I can do it you can do it too”, which in essence is passing judgement on the person’s moral fortitude, and he was unwilling to consider the pressures the sinner’s situation had on his degree of culpability.

It is this legalism without mercy that drives me nuts and makes us appear as a bunch of Pharisees.
I agree. We have no right to pass judgement on someones moral fortitude. In fact, to do so may be a sin of arrogance. We all at different levels in our ablities of self control and self disipline. To revil in our strength and look down on those who don’t have it is dangerously prideful. Although as good catholics we cannot argue the immorality of masterbation. Non of us can sit in judgement of someone moral culpability. Judge not less ye be judged. Like those about to stone the prostitute. Although, no one can dispute the immorality of prostitution. Jesus’ focus was on those holding the stones.
 
I agree. We have no right to pass judgement on someones moral fortitude. In fact, to do so may be a sin of arrogance. We all at different levels in our ablities of self control and self disipline. To revil in our strength and look down on those who don’t have it is dangerously prideful. Although as good catholics we cannot argue the immorality of masterbation. Non of us can sit in judgement of someone moral culpability. Judge not less ye be judged. Like those about to stone the prostitute. Although, no one can dispute the immorality of prostitution. Jesus’ focus was on those holding the stones.
That’s exactly it.

To those who have the ability to beat this sin, this is my message: humbly accept this as a gift, a grace you received from God and instead of disdain for those who struggle with it, pray quietly for them in secret and for yourself in the areas where you are weak . Making one’s own strength and ability a point of pride will end up being one’s undoing, I’m convinced of that. I think we have all been guilty to an extent of being holier than thou one one sin or another. When I think that’s happening to me it’s refreshing to read the degrees of humility in the Rule of St. Benedict.
 
And I think feelings like those are the source of many of the uncharitable comments made on this topic; the idea being “If I can’t have any pleasure, neither can you”.
i’m sorry you interpreted me that way…

reminds me of how thankful I am that i don’t have to rely on human interpretations of the Word… :eek:
 
You took my post & twisted it, You are really radical. I am not so sure That you have beaten the masturbation habit
well, God knows, doesn’t He?

if that’s all you can say about my post, then… i made my point, i guess…

haven’t committed that sin in YEARS… and years… and will never commit it again… because i love Jesus more than sexual pleasure…

hard to believe, i know…
 
Actually It is permissable to stimulate oneself. In the context of a licit conjucal act. In fact I’ve read reference that the wife is allowed to stimulate herself to orgasm if the husband cannot. Again in the context of a complete licit conjucal act. Infact it may even be **necessary **for the husband to stimulate himself prior to intercourse, say in the case of partial ED. If the husband should stimulate himself during foreplay and for some reason the act is interupted and not completed or there is an accidental release, no sin has been commited because the intent was toward a licit conjucal act. However because the husbands climax is tied inseperably to the procreative means, **It is never permissable to ejaculate outside of the “required vessel.” **It’s different with the wife because her climax isn’t tied inseperably to the proceative means. The procreative and unitive means can happen if no climax is achieved on her part at all. So logic would dictate that it wouldn’t matter if it took place before, during, or after. One could argue that her climax infact would in fact add rather than take away from any of these meanings. However, All intensionally derived sexual pleasure must occur in the context of a licit conjucul union. And again, every ejaculation must occur in the required vessel. You can pose an infinate number of more and more complicated sets of circumstances, but I think that if you always keep these two things in mind, the anwers become clear.
i read half of this… (my virgin ears!!! :eek:) 😃

i just want to know:

*****Is this Church teaching??? where did you get it ?? *****
 
A

This isn’t a judgment, it’s promoting the truth of what God wants from us with regard to our sexuality. Promoting sin (which is what the example statement I used does) is never the right path.
 
In short he was saying “since I can do it you can do it too”, which in essence is passing judgement on the person’s moral fortitude, and he was unwilling to consider the pressures the sinner’s situation had on his degree of culpability.

It is this legalism without mercy that drives me nuts and makes us appear as a bunch of Pharisees.
In short he was saying “since [Distracted] can do it [abstain] doesn’t mean you can do it too”, which in essence is passing judgement on [distracted’s] motives, and he was unwilling to consider the [life experience/knowledge, etc.] of distracted’s situation…

It is this mercy without legalism that drives me nuts and makes us appear as a bunch of OSAS’ers…
 
I agree. We have no right to pass judgement on someones moral fortitude. In fact, to do so may be a sin of arrogance. We all at different levels in our ablities of self control and self disipline. To revil in our strength and look down on those who don’t have it is dangerously prideful. .
to presume that someone is doing this kind of thing … says far more about you than the person you are accusing…

ever heard of Projecting??
 


just for your information:

distracted is a woman… (maybe not mentally [always], but phsycially) 😃
 
That’s exactly it.

To those who have the ability to beat this sin, this is my message: humbly accept this as a gift, a grace you received from God and instead of disdain for those who struggle with it, pray quietly for them in secret and for yourself in the areas where you are weak . Making one’s own strength and ability a point of pride will end up being one’s undoing, I’m convinced of that. I think we have all been guilty to an extent of being holier than thou one one sin or another. When I think that’s happening to me it’s refreshing to read the degrees of humility in the Rule of St. Benedict.
I agree, I think in following this thread alittle, It seems to me alot of people want to judge culpibility to both extreams. One says " The temptation is great, don’t worry about your falls" The next says, " You should be stronger, You should never fall." All these comments are based on there indivual experience. The fact is none of us save God himself or a preist hearing confession, with the help of God’s grace have the right to judge these matters. We all need to be careful to simply state the church’s position or give insights and references in the morality of these issues. Thats why the instructions to posting in these forums say we should avoid saying something is sinful or not sinful, but rather say moral or immoral.
 
I think in following this thread alittle, It seems to me alot of people want to judge culpibility to both extreams. One says " The temptation is great, don’t worry about your falls" The next says, " You should be stronger, You should never fall." All these comments are based on there indivual experience. The fact is none of us save God himself or a preist hearing confession, with the help of God’s grace have the right to judge these matters. We all need to be careful to simply state the church’s position or give insights and references in the morality of these issues. Thats why the instructions to posting in these forums say we should avoid saying something is sinful or not sinful, but rather say moral or immoral.
*****something doesn’t cease being sinful or immoral because a person is weak and fails in avoiding it…

i know you probably don’t need to hear this but maybe others do…

i’m getting sick of that “well, nobody’s perfect… you can’t expect people to abstain from [whatever]…” attitude…

this is not charity… it is leading peple into sin by saying that… “Oh well… no biggie…” when it is a biggie… Sin destroys!!!

why did Jesus have to come into this world & die such a horrible death if that were not true???

and Jesus coming & dying for us did NOT change the nature of sin… & what it does to a person…

I believe that sinning AFTER knowing JEsus is far worse than sinning before…

anyway… like i said, i get the feeling you dont need to hear this… but others seem to… *****
 
i read half of this… (my virgin ears!!! :eek:) 😃

i just want to know:

*****Is this Church teaching??? where did you get it ?? *****
See post #266 for some of the reference. To the rest it, it comes from Theology of the body and interpretations by,Christopher West. I’m not sure if your familiar with his books, but they are Imprimatured. I don’t have any direct quoets right now but I could look them up. But if you read my post #275, please read post #278 in follow up. I think that is important.
 
*****something doesn’t cease being sinful or immoral because a person is weak and fails in avoiding it…

i know you probably don’t need to hear this but maybe others do…

i’m getting sick of that “well, nobody’s perfect… you can’t expect people to abstain from [whatever]…” attitude…

this is not charity… it is leading peple into sin by saying that… “Oh well… no biggie…” when it is a biggie… Sin destroys!!!

why did Jesus have to come into this world & die such a horrible death if that were not true???

and Jesus coming & dying for us did NOT change the nature of sin… & what it does to a person…

I believe that sinning AFTER knowing JEsus is far worse than sinning before…

anyway… like i said, i get the feeling you dont need to hear this… but others seem to… *****
There is absulute truth to this. But it is also just as true that non of us can expect anyone to avoid any particular sin. However!, We can equally not axpect anyone not to avoid a certain sin. We all must avoid these “intrinsically evil acts.” As Pope John ll calls them in Humanae Vitae. With every fiber of our being, as if our lives depended on it, every time. And to get to confession as soon as possible every time.
 
There seems to be an issue alittle off topic coming into play. But I think it underlines another moral issue. The fact is, when we go into a confessional we always “** firmly resolve to amend our lives”** of that sinful bahavior. Meaning we fully intend to never commit that sin again. If we remember from our grade school catacism, when we confess a mortal sin while intending on commiting it again, we infact, commiting another gravely immoral act. And if in our weakness we fall again, we return to confession and recommit ourselves to the omission of that sin in our lives. **Every **time we leave confession we must be of the mind that we will never commit that sin again. Even if we fully know that in our weakness, maybe we will. We **must **be at the same time resolved not to. Now I’m not in anyway speaking to moral culpability. I’m speaking to what should be in our own hearts. Moral culpability is for the priest to decide, with God’s grace and based on the individual circumstances invoved in each offense. We need to be careful not to justify sin in ourselves or others, and at the same time not to condemn someone as weak or sinful for thier continued failings. I think the battle againced (name removed by moderator)urity in our lives what ever our state or vocation, is one of the things that define us as Christians. As my Grandfather would say of any real trial in life, “It builds character” .
 
There is absulute truth to this. But it is also just as true that non of us can expect anyone to avoid any particular sin. However!, We can equally not axpect anyone not to avoid a certain sin. We all must avoid these “intrinsically evil acts.” As Pope John ll calls them in Humanae Vitae. With every fiber of our being, as if our lives depended on it, every time. And to get to confession as soon as possible every time.
let me elaborate alittle here before too many jump in, I’m speaking in this sense to sin’s of imputrity and weakness. We should not simply **expect someone to avoid these sins. But, at the same time we should not expect them to **commit the sin. To say they may be incapable of refraint, is to call them reprobate if we hold the standard, or to excuse an immoral act, which we can nither do.
 
let me elaborate alittle here before too many jump in, I’m speaking in this sense to sin’s of imputrity and weakness. We should not simply **expect someone to avoid these sins. But, at the same time we should not expect them to **commit the sin. To say they may be incapable of refraint, is to call them reprobate if we hold the standard, or to excuse an immoral act, which we can nither do.
The issue is that restraint, and heroic effort, mean different things to different people of different abilities.

For some going without only once may take a lot of effort while for others going without for a lifetime is easy, and for yet others they can overcome but with effort and the support of others (this would be typical of many monastics). Which is why the Church teaches that there are circumstances that mitigate culpability.

Which person pleases God more: the sex addict, who just once, with heroic effort, overcomes temptation, or the person who doesn’t even feel sexual temptation? If you read C.S. Lewis he answers that very question.

I think the answer to these masturbation threads lie therein. The problem is that none here are qualified to work that out for individual sinners, it’s really a matter for the confessional.
 
The issue is that restraint, and heroic effort, mean different things to different people of different abilities.

For some going without only once may take a lot of effort while for others going without for a lifetime is easy, and for yet others they can overcome but with effort and the support of others (this would be typical of many monastics). Which is why the Church teaches that there are circumstances that mitigate culpability.

Which person pleases God more: the sex addict, who just once, with heroic effort, overcomes temptation, or the person who doesn’t even feel sexual temptation? If you read C.S. Lewis he answers that very question.

I think the answer to these masturbation threads lie therein. The problem is that none here are qualified to work that out for individual sinners, it’s really a matter for the confessional.
I agree, see post 296
 
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