Masterbation uncertainty

[gam197]

There may be something with her having partners in the past. There may be some guilt there. Guilt is a terrible thing. I’m presuming she is catholic.

Her not being interested is not the real issue. I understand that. The issue is whether she is being submissive and making herself readily available out of love for her husband. Being excited isn’t the issue. She has to learn to shut her mind off and be available.

She may be afraid of a pregnancy. She may not trust you. She may have lost contact with who she is as a female. People on these forum always suggest “Theology of the Body”.

I know she probably won’t like this but once in awhile schedule a motel room just for a night post ovulation where she can get away from everything. Buy some dinner and take it with you. If she’s angry about it, so be it. That’s what my husband use to do.

I use to pamper myself in some little way to deal with the submission.

Go with her to talk to the priest.

 

[Delphinus85]

i could be wrong, but the way I read it is that there is a difference between “I choose to do this, because I want pleasure” vs. “I gained this habit, and I am trying my hardest to break it, but I find in times of extremely high stress I falter greatly”

Again, I think it’s all a matter of the hear.t are you choosing to go against what is taught because you want pleasure, and you don’t care about anything else? Or have you developed the habit (maybe by the choice above) and you are trying to hard to kick it, but you keep failing, especially when under extreme stress? (stress makes it a LOT Harder to resist temptation, that’s why we need to make sure we take care of ourselves psychologically (I’d almost argue that’s why we have a sabbath!)

So in cases where you know it is not something to do, but you mess up and stumble, it’s not the same as willfully doing it. That’s also how I see the difference in mortal, grave, and venial sin. It’s intent. Are you being purposefully rebellious? Walking away from God entirely, or is your intent really good, but you just mess up?

just my thoughts

 

[PennitentMan]

i could be wrong, but the way I read it is that there is a difference between “I choose to do this, because I want pleasure” vs. “I gained this habit, and I am trying my hardest to break it, but I find in times of extremely high stress I falter greatly”

Again, I think it’s all a matter of the hear.t are you choosing to go against what is taught because you want pleasure, and you don’t care about anything else? Or have you developed the habit (maybe by the choice above) and you are trying to hard to kick it, but you keep failing, especially when under extreme stress? (stress makes it a LOT Harder to resist temptation, that’s why we need to make sure we take care of ourselves psychologically (I’d almost argue that’s why we have a sabbath!)

So in cases where you know it is not something to do, but you mess up and stumble, it’s not the same as willfully doing it. That’s also how I see the difference in mortal, grave, and venial sin. It’s intent. Are you being purposefully rebellious? Walking away from God entirely, or is your intent really good, but you just mess up?

just my thoughts

Thanks for your toughts

You are close, but it’s a bit different.

It’s not like we rebel at all, we love our wifes and God.
But we are not in the happit either…that would make the dilemma that much easier to solve.
This specific situation is one that I realise plague a lot of amrried guys. They have not accuired the habbit, they know it’s wrong, but it is seen as the only way to:
a) rid themselves of the immense frustration the feel,
b) to keep them from stumbling into a greater (in this case) sin such as adultery or lust,
c) Keep them being a happy, cheerful and loving husband, as opposed to a grumpy, fight-picking, grudge bearing husband.

We are trying to determine if, in our case, masturbation is really reduced to a “lesser evil”.

You can call it stress, certainly, but it’s not fueled by habbit…it’s out of what I have come to call the “donkey and carrot factor”

PM

 

[Delphinus85]

well I think that they learned the rewards (relieves tension) and there are other ways to do that. Like exercise The thing is though, when making that transition (unhealthy ways of managing stress to healthy ways) people are bound to “mess up” and fall back on what is old and comfortable rather than try for the new and better approach. And during that time, as long as the person is really really trying, yes I do believe guilt is lessened. So if you aren’t doing it to be rebellious, and defy God or the church, then I really can’t see how you could be condemned so harshly for it. However, as a lesser evil…that I am not so sure about…

and frankly, if it’s sexual tension because he can’t be with his wife or what have you, maybe they (husband and wife) should discuss it. My fiance and I have talked about this issue a lot. Frankly I’d rather uh…“help him” as a loving wife rather than let him be grumpy and stressed, and in tun, lead him into sin. But again, we’d be newlyweds without kids so…it’s different.

 

[blessedtoo]

Anxienty can be caused by factors described by “ForwardProgress” and others here.
the same can be said for psychological factors…do you think that your wife denying herslef to you does not work on your psyche? Same can be said for social factors…being in this frustrated state of being denied and all the thoughts of rejection that some with that, and being faced with well-dressed females in tight fitting clothers in the office, sould add to the psychological and social factors here.

These “factors” you keep coming back to are everyday life trials, PM. I’m not trying to minimize your particular situation, but what you are describing is probably the case for most married men, and I might add, single men and WOMEN. In the scenario you keep referring to, we should all be less culpable simply because we are not able to overcome our desires. If this were really the case, don’t you think the Church would have spoken much more clearly by now on this matter? Psychological factors that would minimize culpability would have to be more serious than being denied sex with your wife every time you want it. And as you have stated on other threads, you are not completely denied, but rather unsatisfied with the frequency. Take a poll on how many married men in the country feel that way. And please tell me how seeing well dressed women in tight fitting clothes could ever minimize the culpability? How can you not see that your search for a loop-hole is in itself a danger?

but it is seen as the only way to:
a) rid themselves of the immense frustration the feel,
b) to keep them from stumbling into a greater (in this case) sin such as adultery or lust,
c) Keep them being a happy, cheerful and loving husband, as opposed to a grumpy, fight-picking, grudge bearing husband.

PM, once again you are treating mb as the solution to all these problems. And I would suggest that your obvious obsession with finding a way around Church teaching is a distraction from the bigger issue: either finding some solution with your wife or finding peace within yourself on this matter. Engaging in this practice, especially with your now heightened awareness of all the Church has to say on this, is most definately not going to
a. rid you of the frustration in your marriage
b. keep you from committing adultery - the two are totally separate issues. One does not prevent the other.
c. Make you a happy, cheerful, and loving husband.

I just can’t believe you aren’t getting this.

 

[PennitentMan]

PM, once again you are treating mb as the solution to all these problems. And I would suggest that your obvious obsession with finding a way around Church teaching is a distraction from the bigger issue: either finding some solution with your wife or finding peace within yourself on this matter.

This problem is much bigger than masturbation.
Do you know know that I have been trying to talk to her about this for the last two years??? I have been trying every angle to get her to engage in this.

And it’s not just that I’m unhappy with the frequency, it’s also that it’s just another chore for her, over in 10 minutes, let’s get on with our lives. I have not had intimacy with my wife in a long-long time. She does not share herself with me anymore.

Yes, this is a very big problem in today’s society and I do not understand why the Church does not address this issue.

Many men feel as I do, yearning for spousal intimacy. But after so much talking, begging pleading, we are left unsatisfied by our wifes.
Men are told to shut up and get over it.

This problem is much bigger than masturbation. It’s lack of education of marital duties.

Why do you think porn is such an epidemic? Why are there so many affairs? I’m not at all saying that it’s 100% the cause in every marraige at all, not by a long shot, but honestly there are many good men being driven away from their wifes…where do you think they will go?
To a priest, yes. And what will the priest tell them? The priest will tell them, Oh I know it’s a big problem, most men have spouses that are not interested in intimacy (Yes, priests have told me this), what can you do? Nothing. Accept it.
I am having a real hard time accepting a God of love and affection, wanting his children to live life to it’s fullest, will supress many of His flock, leaving them lonely, depressed and feeling un loved, and when they seek pastoral councilling, they get told to just take it.

Then, where you think these men turn? To Porn, to lovely little secretaries, etc.

It’s not just animal instinct that drive men, we yearn for marital intimacy much more than women do, I have come to realise.

I have done everything in my power to get things going. My wife denies the problem and the Church, whilst acknowledging the problem tells me to suck it up and remain unhappy untill she decides to listen to my begging or comes around on her own.

Feminism is alive and well!

 

[blessedtoo]

Do you know know that I have been trying to talk to her about this for the last two years??? I have been trying every angle to get her to engage in this.

I do know this because in between the many, many lines you’ve written about mb, you mention this problem. And there have been many responses and suggestions to what is the primary issue: the health of your marriage. For example, I know I supplied this link
retrouvaille.org/
many threads ago. Others have suggested other counseling methods. Instead of starting or posting on threads about marital issues, you continue to attempt to crowbar a loophole out of the Church’s teaching on mb. Once again, this is not going to solve your core issue, and in fact, IMO, is a major distraction.
You posted this on February 6th

Hi there gang.

I wanted to let you all know that last night we consumated our marriage again!
Oh how wonderful and intimate it was, the closeness I felt to my wife, was amazing, really what I’'ve been yearning for.

Thank you all for your prayers for me and her so far, it really helped!

And yet today you say this:

I have not had intimacy with my wife in a long-long time. She does not share herself with me anymore.

A long, long time? I am certain by reading your posts that this is not frequent enough for you, but to implicate that you are absolutely deprived is very misleading, especially when folks are really trying to help you here.

Yes, this is a very big problem in today’s society and I do not understand why the Church does not address this issue.

What exactly do you want the Church to do? Priests can help you with understanding the purpose of marriage better. Catholic Community Services, which exists in every city, can provide economical, Catholic counseling for you and your wife, there are programs like Retrovaille available to help couples renew their original marital commitments. What you want is an easy “fix”. You want the Church to tell you it is fine for you to engage in behavior that is not ordered to the good of your soul or your marriage. And the truth is, it would not help your marriage: it may appear to help you, in the short term, but it most definately will not help your marriage or your wife’s primary issues.

Why do you think porn is such an epidemic? Why are there so many affairs? I’m not at all saying that it’s 100% the cause in every marraige at all, not by a long shot, but honestly there are many good men being driven away from their wifes…where do you think they will go?

I think porn is an epidemic because men have a very skewed concept of the purpose of sexual love. I think it is an epidemic because instead of seeking for the healing of one’s soul and the health of a marriage, men are seeking for their own self-gratification. A man who understands the purpose of marriage and marital love would not even consider porn or an affair a solution to their problem. After all, if it is intimacy with your wife that you are yearning for, how on earth could porn satisfy that yearning?

I am having a real hard time accepting a God of love and affection, wanting his children to live life to it’s fullest, will supress many of His flock, leaving them lonely, depressed and feeling un loved, and when they seek pastoral councilling, they get told to just take it.

Where does God ever tell us that this life is going to provide endless satisfaction? As far as I can tell, Christ assured us that there will be much suffering and that we, like Him, should accept that our true happiness will only be found after this life. God does not cause our unhappines or inflict loneliness upon us. Our own disordered desires, which cause us to turn away from the comfort of God and to the false “comforts” of this life are what cause these things. You have bought into the lie that secular psychology and medical “experts” have been propounding for decades: that mb is a healthy expression of one’s sexuality, that it is useful for alleviating stress, that it can prevent men from seeking sexual comfort in more immoral ways. If that were true, wouldn’t you think that our soceity would be the picture of sexual health instead of the cesspool it is?

 

[PennitentMan]

Guys, some feedback. As you know I went to see a priest last night on this issue, and as you can tell from my previous post, he told me that there is nothing I can do.
These are the pointers he gave me, after acknowledging that this is a very, very common problem in Catholic Marriages.

• I need to talk to my wife - done that.
• I need to say some “Hail Mary” before I go to bed for chastity and purtiy - I do a whole rosary for that.
• I need to control my eyes - do that
• I need to mortify myself by eating less - But doing that anyway, since he is my confessor.

Basically, talk to her. If that doesn’t work, shut up and take it like a man.

Where’s this “life to the fullest”?

 

[ForwardProgress]

I wish that the church never approved NFP. That if you were to make love, it better just be a go-for-it attitude and the results of the union may or may not follow. It would help people like PM and me by removing that ‘know I should be able to engage, but she just doesn’t want to’ factor. I went without it for a whole year, and it was not as bad as it is now, because I the act just wasn’t possible for that time. Now that I am an NFP-practicing Catholic, it’s harder when she rejects me because I know that if we are trying to space, we should be okay to go, and there shouldn’t be any reason not to… Without NFP controls in place, the lack of desire would be understandable, as my wife can not emotionally handle another child. We are open to life, as we’ll take one if it comes along, but she is not going to throw the charts out the window and just leave it to God. I’m all for it, but she’s not there in her spiritual journey yet, and it’s not right to push her.

Does that make sense? It’s like saying looking at your kitchen timer and saying ‘Oh, that prime rib roast is ready! I’ve watched it sit in the maranade for a while now, and have been slow cooking it all day. I’m so exicted and can’t wait for my wife and I to eat and enjoy it’…to find out when you go and take it out of the oven that your wife says ‘Nah, I decided I just want a salad tonight. Put it in the fridge for later’. If all I had was lettuce in the fridge to begin with, I wouldn’t have had my heart set on prime rib!

 

[PennitentMan]

You posted this on February 6th

Quote:
Hi there gang.

I wanted to let you all know that last night we consumated our marriage again!
Oh how wonderful and intimate it was, the closeness I felt to my wife, was amazing, really what I’'ve been yearning for.

Thank you all for your prayers for me and her so far, it really helped!

And yet today you say this:

Quote:
I have not had intimacy with my wife in a long-long time. She does not share herself with me anymore.

A long, long time? I am certain by reading your posts that this is not frequent enough for you, but to implicate that you are absolutely deprived is very misleading, especially when folks are really trying to help you here.

Yes, I stand corrected, I have had intimate relations once. I shared my happiness with you guys of the one occasion that it was wonderful.
Also, a comment after that thread was something like:
“Good for you, so that is March crossed off the list? Talk to her”
I have been trying…

But it’s been carrying on like this for about two years. Can you see a pattern here? the problem is so much bigger. I’m looking at the big picture to try and fix it.

I’m not just looking for a quick fix, I’m looking for any fix. Wives don’t listen. They deny the problem.

So, yes, if by highlighting the one time that we were intimate, you say that this is a non-issue, tell that to all the other guys on here that echoes this sentiment. Also to all the other guys that my priest acknowledge have this same problem.

I was under the impression that we are to have life, and life to the fullest.
Most of this is life is suffering. “Life to the fullest” is few and far between, from where I’m standing.

PM

 

[baltobetsy]

Tough love alert!

I have not had intimacy with my wife in a long-long time. She does not share herself with me anymore.

Just a couple of weeks ago, you were thrilled that you and Mrs. PM had had an intimate encounter that really brought you close together again. What’s up with that? Does it not count because you are frustrated again? Was it not sufficiently intimate? Did you overstate it because you finally got relief?

PM, you have idealized masturbation dangerously. It is a lonely, solitary act that will (if you finally manage to justify it to yourself) magnify your loneliness in the marriage and make you even more unhappy. And, no matter what mental gymnastics you go through to justify it, it will still be a sin that separates you from both your wife and God. It’s just plain pitiful.

There are trials in every marriage. Some have financial problems, some have health problems, some have heartbreak over their children, and some have sexual problems. None of these problems are solved by sinning. Would the honorable man in financial distress look for loopholes to allow him to commit fraud?

If I understand correctly, you are looking for ways to make this grave matter into a venial sin by reducing the culpability. Do you see the problem here? You still want to solve a problem by committing a sin. I believe it was Thomas Aquinas who said that all the material good in the universe is of less value than the avoidance of even a venial sin. In other words, no good is ever accomplished by a sin, even a venial one.

It’s time to put this quest aside. This is Lent, the time when we are to take up our cross and follow Christ. It is not the time to see if we can put it down.

Betsy

 

[PennitentMan]

Tough love alert!

Just a couple of weeks ago, you were thrilled that you and Mrs. PM had had an intimate encounter that really brought you close together again. What’s up with that? Does it not count because you are frustrated again? Was it not sufficiently intimate? Did you overstate it because you finally got relief?

PM, you have idealized masturbation dangerously. It is a lonely, solitary act that will (if you finally manage to justify it to yourself) magnify your loneliness in the marriage and make you even more unhappy. And, no matter what mental gymnastics you go through to justify it, it will still be a sin that separates you from both your wife and God. It’s just plain pitiful.

There are trials in every marriage. Some have financial problems, some have health problems, some have heartbreak over their children, and some have sexual problems. None of these problems are solved by sinning. Would the honorable man in financial distress look for loopholes to allow him to commit fraud?

If I understand correctly, you are looking for ways to make this grave matter into a venial sin by reducing the culpability. Do you see the problem here? You still want to solve a problem by committing a sin. I believe it was Thomas Aquinas who said that all the material good in the universe is of less value than the avoidance of even a venial sin. In other words, no good is ever accomplished by a sin, even a venial one.

It’s time to put this quest aside. This is Lent, the time when we are to take up our cross and follow Christ. It is not the time to see if we can put it down.

Betsy

See my post above.

 

[blessedtoo]

But it’s been carrying on line this for about two years. Can you see a pattern here? the problem is so much bigger. I’m looking at the big picture to try and fix it.

PM, I think it’s absolutely great that you are trying to fix it, I really do. But think about this: what is two years in the lifetime of a man? ForwardProgress just mentioned in his above post that he went without intimacy with his wife for one whole year. And while I am sure that was extremely painful, it is survivable. Isn’t it just possible that this two year trial, or even a 4 year trial is something you must experience for some other or greater good? My parents have been married for 60 years. Don’t you think when they look back on certain periods in their lives, these things seem quite insignificant in the big scheme of things? We, as fallen human beings, are always seeking escape from pain. And we want it immediately, not 3 years from now or 5 years from now. We have no ability to look beyond our current discomfort to what may be ahead. And when we do look ahead, we only see the negative.

I’m not just looking for a quick fix, I’m looking for any fix. Wives don’t listen. They deny the problem

.
I don’t know your wife or the particulars of your situation, but you are the husband: that’s one half of this marriage. Have you told her that counseling is no longer just a suggestion but mandatory? Have you told her that her refusal to talk about or acknowledge the problem is driving a wedge between you that may be impossible to dislodge? Have you made it clear that this situation is unacceptable?

I was under the impression that we are to have life, and life to the fullest.

That sound like a cultural concept to me. And I don’t know how you interpret that statement. For me, living life to it’s fullest means accepting your life where it is at. Sure, you do what you can to change the things that are causing you great unhappiness. But some things can’t be changed and it is at that point that we understand the true meaning of sacrifice and acceptance.

 

[PennitentMan]

So, life is suffering. Marraige is suffering.
Don’t worry, sit down and shut up, eventually things will get better. Life with it, deal with it.

Yeah, tough love…

 

[davidv]

So, life is suffering. Marraige is suffering.
Don’t worry, sit down and shut up, eventually things will get better. Life with it, deal with it.

Yeah, tough love…

That’s right. Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow Him.

 

[blessedtoo]

So, life is suffering. Marraige is suffering.
.

PM, is your WHOLE LIFE suffering? Everything in your life causes you suffering? Let’s get real, shall we? Is your entire marriage a bust? Do you and your wife experience zero happiness, outside of this one issue? Is being a dad suffering? How about your work life? Suffering there too? Health? Finances? Spiritual life? Everything is poop?

You have no perspective. This is one part of life - not the be all and end all. IMO, you need some sexual maturity. Perhaps that is why you have been given this opportunity. Use is to seek a better understanding of what Christ wants for you and your wife. Use is to foster a greater sense of compassion for those who have even less than you (that’s many of us here). Use it to draw yourself closer to the sacrifice of your Lord, especially, as Betsy so profoundly pointed out, during this season of Lent.

 

[baltobetsy]

So what is “life to the fullest?”

Is it a beautiful wife, a great marriage with plenty of intimacy and sex, a satisfying job, a lovely home, good health, above-average kids when you want them, time for leisure and a bunch of great friends?

NO!!! That’s something from an Amway meeting.

Life to the fullest is living out the will of God for you wholeheartedly, whether it be suffering or prosperity, knowing that whatever He sends you, good or difficult, is for your eternal good, that it will bring you to true happiness with Him in heaven. It is the freedom from your own desires that allows you to be grateful for whatever you have, and even for what you don’t.

Life to the fullest is loving the Cross, if you want to know the whole truth. It’s time to start praying for the gift of detachment from your own desires and the ability to embrace suffering willingly.

Betsy

 

[PennitentMan]

PM, is your WHOLE LIFE suffering? Everything in your life causes you suffering? Let’s get real, shall we? Is your entire marriage a bust? Do you and your wife experience zero happiness, outside of this one issue? Is being a dad suffering? How about your work life? Suffering there too? Health? Finances? Spiritual life? Everything is poop?

You have no perspective. This is one part of life - not the be all and end all. IMO, you need some sexual maturity. Perhaps that is why you have been given this opportunity. Use is to seek a better understanding of what Christ wants for you and your wife. Use is to foster a greater sense of compassion for those who have even less than you (that’s many of us here). Use it to draw yourself closer to the sacrifice of your Lord, especially, as Betsy so profoundly pointed out, during this season of Lent.

Marriage and parenthood is the toughest thing I have ever done. No end to the headaches, worries, stress and concern. We live above our single-income, in a place where we have no support structure. My job is crazy-tough. We have a special needs child.

 

[PennitentMan]

Even if you guys want to call me childish, or whatever else you want to label me as, what about all the other men here that have the same problem? What about the men that come to priests with this issue?
Are they all being childish? There is a real issue here. Maybe I just speak the loudest so I catch all the flak, so be it, but honestly, when all options are exhausted, then what? Nothing.

This is getting me all worked up, but really, there is a bigger picture here. Why is everyone blind to this???

 

[litllulu]

Even if you guys want to call me childish, or whatever else you want to label me as, what about all the other men here that have the same problem? What about the men that come to priests with this issue?
Are they all being childish? There is a real issue here. Maybe I just speak the loudest so I catch all the flak, so be it, but honestly, when all options are exhausted, then what? Nothing.

This is getting me all worked up, but really, there is a bigger picture here. Why is everyone blind to this???

PM,
No I do not think you are childish. You are a good man. I understand, we all have problems in this area. Who doesn’t want intimacy.