Masterbation uncertainty

[Greg27]

St Gregory of Nyssa, a very great Church Father, wrote a lot about the life of moral virtue.

Moral life is not simply about being ‘good’ or ‘bad’, it is also a choice to be like God or unlike God. Pope John Paul quotes St Gregory quite a few times in his encyclicals.

Each choice we make, is a choice for or against God. The Church’s moral theology is formulated on what it believes is best to help us achieve a life of virtue, which along with God’s grace after our baptism, helps make us God’s friends on Earth as much as is possible.

Avoiding things like masturbation is often seen as giving up of something good and desireable. What people aim for in an action, as Aristotle and St Thomas, is what we should pay attention to.

In masturbation the aim is physical pleasure for the self. Now at first this seems no worse than enjoying other forms of pleasure, such as a hot bath or a good meal. But the problem is with this sexual act is there is a much better pleasure, a truer pleasure, that or marriage or the single life united closely to God. The pleasures in this life are not just pleasures we attain as an animal, but also higher pleasures which are blessed by God and infused by grace. Masturbation is not an act which is graced by God, as moral theology normally understands it. Marriage is, and so is sex inside marriage.

The aim of every good moral act is to bring us closer to God, who is our truest joy, happiness and peace. Every bad moral act in some way seperates us off from God.

Whatever our action, we need to do our best to make it holy. Masturbation cannot be made holy. So, we replace it with something which is, such as prayer, which God often gives us great pleasure in return for, but in spiritual terms. It is even better if we desire God for himself, and not for what he gives as gifts, though prayers for gifts are fine so long as they are not against his will.

Our potential in the life of grace is great, to become truely human by participating in God. But that also means we have to leave some things behind, but not to lose true humanity and life, but to gain it.

 

[PennitentMan]

In masturbation the aim is physical pleasure for the self. Now at first this seems no worse than enjoying other forms of pleasure, such as a hot bath or a good meal. But the problem is with this sexual act is there is a much better pleasure, a truer pleasure, that or marriage or the single life united closely to God. The pleasures in this life are not just pleasures we attain as an animal, but also higher pleasures which are blessed by God and infused by grace. Masturbation is not an act which is graced by God, as moral theology normally understands it. Marriage is, and so is sex inside marriage.

I have been wanting to address this specific point for a little while, and here’s an opportunity. Not disagreeing at all with you Greg, just using the point to air my views. It’s quite difficult to express my feelings here, since I have not been able to put them into words before, but I’ll try.

I have been listening to Christopher West for the last little while. He says, as Greg mentioned above, that there is a much better pleasure than sex.
I know from listening to C.W. that sex is supposed to be good and pure and it is a foreshadowing of the love of God.

Now, throughout my ordeal with marital intimacy problems, I have been following the Church, remaining chaste and true to it’s teachings and to my wife.
I also know that this chastity is supposed to bring me closer to God and bring greater pleasure…But it hasn’t. This seems like a harsh statement, and I have expressed my regret on this to the Lord in prayer too, but honestly, I can’t say that I experienced any pleasure at all during this. In fact, I had a struggle in my faith during this…I did receive the Eucharist and I’m sure He helped me with Grace, but no pleasure at all.

It’s a bit of a catch 22. Sexual pleasure is one of the most pleasurable things out there, but we are told that that pleasure is not important…that it’s all about unitive and pro-creative aspects. I understand through logic about pro-creation and unification, but I cannot understand the pleasure teaching.
I do not understand why the Lord would have made something that pleasurable, not speak out against it, but the Church says that it’s not about the pleasure at all…why is that?

Why did I deny myself that pleasure when God says nothing about it…anywhere? I could have saved myself a lot of grief and suffering, stress and anxiety.
Again, I respect the Church teachings, but I cannot understand it.

People say that pleasure is only part of the sex act to make sure people actually pro-create, but it couldn’t get my wife in the mood…

I keep on going around in circles in my head on this teaching…one moment it makes sense-logically, then the next moment my brain asks one question and I’m all confused again.

Maybe I just don’t understand the teaching yet, and I pray for wisdom on this too. I still think there’s something missing…

I’m sooo confused!

PM

 

[blessedtoo]

Greetings PM. God bless you for continuing your quest to reach a greater understanding on this issue.

I have been listening to Christopher West for the last little while. He says, as Greg mentioned above, that there is a much better pleasure than sex.
I know from listening to C.W. that sex is supposed to be good and pure and it is a foreshadowing of the love of God.

I haven’t read or listened to CW yet. Does he claim that sexual pleasure has no function within the marital act? Or is his claim that it is a part of the unitive and procreative aspect, albeit not the most important?

I do agree with him that there is a much better pleasure than the temporal and fleeting “release” of the sexual act. In addition, your past posts indicate that you are primarily concerned with the “intimacy” missing from your marriage because of the lack of sexual activity. Is intimacy your code word for sexual pleasure? I ask this because the actual physical response or release of the act itself, when reduced to it’s most biological definition, is really nothing more that a momentary discharge of pressure. Speaking from a purely technical perspective, it’s like a really satisfying sneeze! Most people would agree that the actual “pleasure” component only exists when the unitive aspect is fulfilled. Even in masturbation, one normally fantasizes something along with the act that will simulate a union with another person. The physical pleasure aspect is pretty devoid of meaning if release is all one seeks.

I do think God has spoken on this issue. If you accept that He is the author of this pleasure, that He has given it to us as a gift, then wouldn’t it makes sense to follow His guidance on how best to use it? We know that sexual sins such as fornication, adultery, and homosexuality were addressed directly by God. These behaviors all have common themes - they separate some aspect of the unitive and/or procreative from the purpose of the sexual act. And of course, masturbation does the same. If we accept that the pursuit of pleasure for it’s own sake is empty and devoid of meaning, shouldn’t we be then able to understand what God intended it’s purpose to be? By uniting the pleasure aspect to the act itself, He has given us a message that He loves us so very much that He made this act more fulfilling than most other pleasures when it is used in it’s intended context.

This truly does appear to be your cross. When CW talks about pleasure much greater than that which one can know through sex, I wonder if he is talking about the inner joy and peace one finds when they are able to unite their suffering with Christ. I wouldn’t necessarily call it “pleasure”, although it can bring great joy to truly accept the cross you have been given. Believe me when I say, I struggle with this every single day. As someone who suffers terribly with a chronic and painful disease, it is all I can do somedays to just lift my head from the pillow. I often rail at the heaven’s and question God’s motives for delivering to me this sometimes unbearably heavy cross. And in these moments, I am the most unhappy and unsettled. It is when I accept, when I embrace this burden, especially when I don’t understand, that I feel the most peace, joy, and “pleasure”.

 

[PennitentMan]

Thanks for the post!
Here are some comments:

Is intimacy your code word for sexual pleasure?

No, actually, Intimacy is the act, and sexual pleasure is something that is derived from the act…in my definitions

I do think God has spoken on this issue. If you accept that He is the author of this pleasure, that He has given it to us as a gift, then wouldn’t it makes sense to follow His guidance on how best to use it? We know that sexual sins such as fornication, adultery, and homosexuality were addressed directly by God.

 

[blessedtoo]

Yes, but He didn’t anywhere mention, or alluded to masturbation

Specifically, using the word masturbation, no He did not. I am sure you are aware of the debate over the story of Onan, but I suspect you will lean toward the contraception interpretation for that one. Ok. Does God specifically mention abortion? How about IVF? Does He specifically speak to the issue of pedophilia? Can we not infer, from basic natural and moral law given to us by God, that these issues would be a gross abuse of the sexual faculties? Why would you think masturbation would or should be an exception?

Actually I would go so far as to say that Adultery fulfills the Church’s precepts of pro-creation and unification - just not with one’s spouse - hence, adultery

I can see why you would draw this conclusion, but if we agree that God intends the “unitive” aspect of sex to be exclusively shared between married people (hence the prohibition of fornication), it could be argued there is no unitive component to unmarried sex, regardless of the “feeling” or “emotions” of the participants.

I don’t know if I can accept that though. When I eat a candy bar, I am eating it for the pursuit of pleasure. When I skydive, I am doing it for the pursuit of pleasure…Sexual pleasure is not in that realm, I know, but I just can’t reconcile the Church with the Bible in this matter.

When you eat a candy bar, you are not deliberately separating the pleasure aspect from the nutritional aspect. While one could argue that there is little nutritional value in a candy bar, the fact remains that you have eaten something which has provided calories which will feed the body, as food is intended. The disordered act would be eating the candy bar and separating the two aspects by inducing yourself to throw up, thereby rejecting the calories and nutritional value while still experiencing the pleasure. Make sense?

 

[PennitentMan]

Specifically, using the word masturbation, no He did not. I am sure you are aware of the debate over the story of Onan, but I suspect you will lean toward the contraception interpretation for that one. Ok. Does God specifically mention abortion? How about IVF? Does He specifically speak to the issue of pedophilia? Can we not infer, from basic natural and moral law given to us by God, that these issues would be a gross abuse of the sexual faculties? Why would you think masturbation would or should be an exception?

I think i should be, because abortion, IVF, pediphillia, all goes against one of the 10 commandments…murder or the dignity of humans. Maturbation, as long as fantasies don’t enter into it, is not contrary to any commandment or law.

I can see why you would draw this conclusion, but if we agree that God intends the “unitive” aspect of sex to be exclusively shared between married people (hence the prohibition of fornication), it could be argued there is no unitive component to unmarried sex, regardless of the “feeling” or “emotions” of the participants.

This point is very subjective, and depends on the definition of the word “unitive”. I do understand where you are coming from, but again, this qould go against one of the 10 commandments, where as masturbation withouf fantasies does not.

When you eat a candy bar, you are not deliberately separating the pleasure aspect from the nutritional aspect. While one could argue that there is little nutritional value in a candy bar, the fact remains that you have eaten something which has provided calories which will feed the body, as food is intended. The disordered act would be eating the candy bar and separating the two aspects by inducing yourself to throw up, thereby rejecting the calories and nutritional value while still experiencing the pleasure. Make sense?

It does, yes. Thanks for clarifying.
But what about other practices where an act can be done solely for pleaurable purposes? Let’s forget that masturbation is a sin, for the moment. It in itself is an act that does not have a unitive aspect in it, unlike the candybar analogy. It’s purpose would be for pleasure/release of stress and anxiety.
If I skydive, or Bungee, or watching TV…whatever, it would be for pleasure/releasing stress and anxieties.
I would almost group masturbation (without fantasies) into this category…

I realise that I’ll probably get flack for this point, but I honestly don’t see the bad side of this…I’m not talking about misuse of it…just like alchohol would be okay in moderation but not good if it is misused…honestly?
Maybe it’s me and I’m wrong, but I cannot see the logic.

You are right thgouth, it is my cross, and I realise that I will not get the answer I am arguing for. Catholicms is not a democracy…and rightly so…I guess I’m just venting my feelings, since it’s all I can do.

PM

 

[East_and_West]

Let’s try “the substitution game” and see if this is a valid principle:

“I believe murder to be a sin but I don’t think it always warrants not receiving communion. If one knows it is wrong, tries to stop but occasionally slips up then I don’t think it is a mortal sin.” Hmmm. Don’t so, but maybe that substitution was too severe.

“I believe stealing to be a sin but I don’t think it always warrants not receiving communion. If one knows it is wrong, tries to stop but occasionally slips up then I don’t think it is a mortal sin.”

Hmm. That one might work in the case of someone with a psychological disorder like kleptomania, as the disorder would take away the full consent of the will. So, I guess I can agree with you if by “slip up” you mean “falls prey to their psychological disorder/immaturity” then I might agree.

One does not “slip up” and commit murer. You are comparing apples and oranges. Thus, the “substitution game” is just silly.

 

[RichP]

I think i should be, because abortion, IVF, pediphillia, all goes against one of the 10 commandments…murder or the dignity of humans. Maturbation, as long as fantasies don’t enter into it, is not contrary to any commandment or law.

This point is very subjective, and depends on the definition of the word “unitive”. I do understand where you are coming from, but again, this qould go against one of the 10 commandments, where as masturbation withouf fantasies does not.

I realise that I’ll probably get flack for this point, but I honestly don’t see the bad side of this…I’m not talking about misuse of it…just like alchohol would be okay in moderation but not good if it is misused…honestly?
Maybe it’s me and I’m wrong, but I cannot see the logic.

PM,

The Sixth Commandment prohibits all forms of unchaste sex including masturbation. We are all called to chastity, even in marriage. Our spouses are not to be used as an object to relieve sexual tension or stress whenever we feel like it. If we have a lot of pent up tension and our spouse is ill, out of town, or otherwise not available, we cannot got outside of our marriage to get relief.

At worst case, even if our spouse chooses not to be intitmate any more, we STILL cannot go outside of our marriage including masturbation to get relief.

Being chaste within the relationship makes us available to participate in the entire intimacy of the relationship. Being unchaste closes us to the ability to be intimate in the relationship.

Masturbation being a selfish, self-centered act tells our spouse (or our future spouse if we are not married), “I can provide myself with sexual gratification. I do not need you to physically intimate with me.” What you should be saying is, " I wish to be fully and totally intimate with you. In order to do that, I will give myself totally and without reservation to you. My gratification comes from your gift of intimacy to me."

Also, one must be careful about violating the First Commandment. Why are we putting ourselves above God? We are saying that during the time we are being selfish and self-centered, God cannot help us… or more precisely, God can help us but we think we can help ourselves better than God can help us. We have to remember to put God first in everything we do.

I hope this helps!

 

[PennitentMan]

Masturbation being a selfish, self-centered act tells our spouse (or our future spouse if we are not married), “I can provide myself with sexual gratification. I do not need you to physically intimate with me.” What you should be saying is, " I wish to be fully and totally intimate with you. In order to do that, I will give myself totally and without reservation to you. My gratification comes from your gift of intimacy to me."

I’m saying, what you said:“I wish to be fully and totally intimate with you. In order to do that, I will give myself totally and without reservation to you. My gratification comes from your gift of intimacy to me.”

But she is saying to me (nonverbally):
“I don’t feel like showing you how much I love you. I don’t want to sleep with you unless I absolutely have to. I don’t find you attractive anymore” - That’s what it feels like

So, I’m saying: “Okay, I have to respect her wishes, (appart from the slap in the face it is) but is there not help for me (and all the other men in my situation)? We cannot abstain totally, like preists or monks, since we live with our wives, hug them kiss them and see them naked…is there no release, no help?”

And the answer is: “No. Shut op, stop your complaining and smile!!!”

I’m getting sick of this.

Sex is not a gift, I don’t care what anyone says. It’s necesarry for pro-creation…Just, why was it made to feel so frick’n good? I can’t stand it!!!
Sex is also the biggest temptation in life. And it’s making me increasingly negative…

Yes, I I know I posted a litte while ago that things are going better, but that’s apparently just what I was thinking…we did become intimate once, but the feelings remained.

 

[baltobetsy]

And it’s making me increasingly negative…

Yes, I I know I posted a litte while ago that things are going better, but that’s apparently just what I was thinking…we did become intimate once, but the feelings remained.

PM, perhaps you’re not quite as good an actor as you think you are. You tell us that you act like a model husband - you do every possible thoughtful, considerate thing for your wife. Perhaps she knows you better than you realize and can see through all the good actions to your bad attitude.

I have found, in my relationship with God, that when I am absolutely desperate for something, and pray and pray and pray for it, I often do not receive it. But when I give it up, place the situation in God’s hands and submit totally to His will, even if that means not getting what I am so desperate for, that’s when God says, “Yes.” But it has to be a totally sincere giving up of my own will. So perhaps, your best tactic is to

Shut up, stop your complaining and smile!!!

Betsy

 

[PennitentMan]

PM, perhaps you’re not quite as good an actor as you think you are. You tell us that you act like a model husband - you do every possible thoughtful, considerate thing for your wife. Perhaps she knows you better than you realize and can see through all the good actions to your bad attitude.

I have found, in my relationship with God, that when I am absolutely desperate for something, and pray and pray and pray for it, I often do not receive it. But when I give it up, place the situation in God’s hands and submit totally to His will, even if that means not getting what I am so desperate for, that’s when God says, “Yes.” But it has to be a totally sincere giving up of my own will. So perhaps, your best tactic is to

Betsy

Betsy…how long should I carry on before I am allowed to vent a bit?
I cannot vent to my wife, since that would make things worse. I’m getting my feelings out here, it’s the only place I have.

Thanks for adding your voice to the people telling me to shut up…I’m feeling the love…

 

[baltobetsy]

Betsy…how long should I carry on before I am allowed to vent a bit?
I cannot vent to my wife, since that would make things worse. I’m getting my feelings out here, it’s the only place I have.

Thanks for adding your voice to the people telling me to shut up…I’m feeling the love…

Reread the post. It’s about tactics.

Your need to vent implies (in and of itself) negative feelings to which your wife must be sensitive. I’m not telling you to shut up about your negative feelings. I’m suggesting that you make a sincere effort to really accept things as they are, in their predictable, though sparse, pattern. Turn it all over to God - accept as His will for you at this time the situation at hand, and work on being sincerely happy about it. Don’t shut up about your negative feelings - get rid of them entirely. Your wife will sense the change in you, and perhaps be more responsive to you over time. Trust me, in spite of all the great things you do, she knows you’re unhappy with her, and that’s a huge turn-off.

If you cannot do this, your only other option is to tell her you’re making a phone call tomorrow. Would she prefer it to be the marriage counselor or the divorce lawyer? That should jolt her awake.

You cannot go on like this. Either change yourself or change the situation.

Betsy

 

[PennitentMan]

Reread the post. It’s about tactics.

Your need to vent implies (in and of itself) negative feelings to which your wife must be sensitive. I’m not telling you to shut up about your negative feelings. I’m suggesting that you make a sincere effort to really accept things as they are, in their predictable, though sparse, pattern. Turn it all over to God - accept as His will for you at this time the situation at hand, and work on being sincerely happy about it. Don’t shut up about your negative feelings - get rid of them entirely. Your wife will sense the change in you, and perhaps be more responsive to you over time. Trust me, in spite of all the great things you do, she knows you’re unhappy with her, and that’s a huge turn-off.

If you cannot do this, your only other option is to tell her you’re making a phone call tomorrow. Would she prefer it to be the marriage counselor or the divorce lawyer? That should jolt her awake.

You cannot go on like this. Either change yourself or change the situation.

Betsy

Betsy, trust me when I say and ultimatum like that will do far more harm than good.

I cannot threaten her with divorce. And I have asked her to go to councilling already, it’s not working.
I need to get through this time in my life. I’m praying for a mind change, I’m praying for help and guidance. I know I need to adjust my attitude and thoughts…but how do I adjust my"loins"
It’s a constant thing for me and it’s driving me crazy…but I know people have done it, come thoguht it, I just have to find out how…

 

[baltobetsy]

I just have to find out how…

I suggest you start with gratitude. Find things about your marriage that you are truly thankful for. Concentrate on these things and sincerely thank your wife and God for them. Perhaps this change of focus will become more dominant in your thinking and help you be happier.

Betsy

 

[sayswho]

It does hurt your body and spirit in many real ways.

The immoral images you host while “scratching that itch” are not only sinful, but also begin to desensitize you to stimulation so that you have to find more and more before you can become as stimulated. This can make it hard or even impossible for a normal sexy woman to excite you. So then normal sex loses interest for you. Just take a moment to realize how backwards it would be that rather than spending an evening making love to your wife, you’d perfer to spend it alone with your hand down your pants. But it is common among masturbaters.

It’s also disrespecting the gift of sex that God gave us. The whole reason He gave us these urges was to let us enjoy the full experience. When you get hungry, do you eat dirt? When you get thirsty, do you drink oil? Then why would you do the equivalent when it comes to sex? Food was meant for our hunger, water for our thirst, and sex for our urges.

And the whole idea of when you’re hungry eat, thirsty drink, and…um…“itchy” then “scratch” isn’t a reasonable argument. What if a guy gets “itchy” for his girlfriend on a date. Does he have every right to “scratch” that “itch”? There are rapists who have used the argument that they just couldn’t help themselves. We MUST practice self control, even with ourselves.

If you truly love God, you have to accept ALL He commands, whether it makes sense to you or not. I really encourage you to trust in God on this one! He does know WAY more than we ever could.

Curious - how do we know what ALL God commands?