Matt Fradd on Andrew Cuomo and Excommunication

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Elf01 said:
I think the Church needs to send a strong message that support for abortion is not tolerated and excommunication pro abortion politicians that claim to be Catholic is probably the best way to do that.
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I am confused.
Is excommunication supposed to be a specific act taken against a single individual to turn their behavior? Or is it an act done as a demonstration to others?

I am uncertain these two are completely compatible.
 
Dolan says (as do many others already mentioned, Fradd in particular) that excommunication is not a weapon to be weilded at the beck and whim of the masses. Rather, excommunication is a loving act. It is reminding someone that their actions are putting themselves dangerous close to spending eternity in hell. It is a deeply merciful call to conversion and repentance
 
GospelOfMatthew said:
Dolan says (as do many others already mentioned, Fradd in particular) that excommunication is not a weapon to be weilded at the beck and whim of the masses. Rather, excommunication is a loving act. It is reminding someone that their actions are putting themselves dangerous close to spending eternity in hell. It is a deeply merciful call to conversion and repentance
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This is true. I would just add:
  • It’s not intended to “send a lesson” to others;
  • It’s not intended to offer encouragement, or resolution, to Catholics angry at the individual;
  • There’s usually other important information about any case, that the bishop has but can’t share;
  • Excommunication is almost always private. So is the lifting of such.
 
Excommunication doesn’t result in the person going to hell. The person’s chosen actions have placed that person on the path to hell. Excommunication is a way of trying to make it clear where that path is leading, in the hopes that it will lead to change.

It’s kind of like seeing someone driving the wrong way on a one-way road and shouting “Hey, you’re going the wrong way! Stop, go back!”
 
commenter said:
I would just add:
  • It’s not intended to “send a lesson” to others;
  • It’s not intended to offer encouragement, or resolution, to Catholics angry at the individual;
  • There’s usually other important information about any case, that the bishop has but can’t share;
  • Excommunication is almost always private. So is the lifting of such.
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I agree with point 3–that’s possible, at least in terms of the information that would be presented in the course of a trial/administrative process. Point 1 and 2, not really in agreement, since excommunication is an act that matters to the whole Body, and is for the benefit of the whole, not just the individual who is penalized, (but I think I see what you mean since the primary point is the reformation of the offending party). Point 4, no agreement at all–the imposition of a penalty is, by nature, a public act of the competent, ecclesial authority.

Dan
 
GospelOfMatthew said:
mind it is to remind him he’s risking hell and it’s a loving act not a punishing act, would Cuomo even care? Or would he proceed to blaspheme the Church and say the Church is sexist and misogynistic?
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GospelOfMatthew said:
The Bishop of Albany has been very outspoken and wrote a letter to Cuomo. Cuomo hasn’t responded from last I looked
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I think there is quite a bit of debate regarding who’s the bishop.

One argument is that for elected govt officials, their residence before being elected to office is the bishop they belong to.

So the argument can be made that Cuomo falls under Cardinal Dolan and not the Bishop of Albany.

I’m not sure if canon law is specific on this, but it seems like bishops debate this. 😳
 
vz71 said:
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Elf01:
I think the Church needs to send a strong message that support for abortion is not tolerated and excommunication pro abortion politicians that claim to be Catholic is probably the best way to do that.
Click to expand...
I am confused.
Is excommunication supposed to be a specific act taken against a single individual to turn their behavior? Or is it an act done as a demonstration to others?

I am uncertain these two are completely compatible.
Click to expand...
It is primarily “a specific act taken against a single individual to turn their behavior,” but has the secondary benefit of being a demonstration to others, if done publicly.

I honestly think that the US bishops are honestly afraid to publicly excommunicate politicians because of abortion due to the anti-Catholic history in America laws and I think they are extremely afraid of Catholic Democrats officially leaving the church as a response. In other words, I think they fear that a public excommunication will backfire and have too many unintended, negative results.
 
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The Audio is 100% worth listening too!!!

And today, on the Memorial of St Thomas Aquinas

St Thomas Aquinas, pray for us!
 
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That’s what I thought too.
The Bishop of the diocese where you live is your Ordinary.
Maybe it has something to do with Albany not being his permanent address.
 
AlNg said:
So if a Catholic is excommunicated and she does not repent, and has no other unforgiven sins, she will go to heaven?
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SAINT Joan of Arc died excommunicated from the Church when she was burned at the stake for heresy! SAINT Joan of Arc. 🙂

Excommunication is not the opposite of canonization, and it isn’t an infallible exercise of the magisterium. It’s a juridical sentence.
 
Ok, I’ll accept your answer as the qualified expert. My concern about this topic is that even if Matt Fradd were an expert in canon law (I’m sure he’s not) why is he using the media to tell the laity what the bishop should do?
Suppose you were were responsible for a difficult decision in a complicated matter. Would you want people using the media to offer you advise? The average person thinks they can learn canon law by a half hour reading anonymous posts on the internet. You probably read up on Wikipedia, or advanced works.
(No sarcasm intended, I’ve appreciated your posts for years)
 
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commenter said:
My concern about this topic is that even if Matt Fradd were an expert in canon law (I’m sure he’s not) why is he using the media to tell the laity what the bishop should do?
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It is a weekly pocast.
Discussing the writings of Aquinas on various topics is what he does.
He is not telling the Bishop to do anything, he is looking at the action through the lens of the writings of Aquinas.
 
Flopfoot said:
But there is no risk of anyone thinking that what Cuomo is doing is in line with church teachings. No one thinks of him as an example of a model Catholic.
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He still receives communion though. And can someone like him honestly receive the sacrament of communion? I don’t think so. Because he is supporting something that is well beyond the accepted teachings of the Church as a political figure who proclaims himself to be a Catholic.
 
commenter said:
You probably read up on Wikipedia, or advanced works.
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Ha. I don’t often look at Wikipedia for anything other than information about movies or actors and that sort of thing. But, in those few times when I’ve checked canonical topics on there, it is usually not bad at all. I guess nobody in their right mind would put articles up there on canon law, except for canon lawyers. … Maybe that didn’t come out right.

Dan
 
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commenter said:
Ok, I’ll accept your answer as the qualified expert. My concern about this topic is that even if Matt Fradd were an expert in canon law (I’m sure he’s not) why is he using the media to tell the laity what the bishop should do?
Suppose you were were responsible for a difficult decision in a complicated matter. Would you want people using the media to offer you advise? The average person thinks they can learn canon law by a half hour reading anonymous posts on the internet. You probably read up on Wikipedia, or advanced works.
(No sarcasm intended, I’ve appreciated your posts for years)
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A person does not need to be a canon lawyer to know what evil, or to know what scandal is, and to know that some things cry out for justice.

And every person participates as priest prophet and king in our respective states of life. Matt Fradd is exercising a prophetic voice to exhort others.
That’s his right and responsibility as a thinking human being.
 
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