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Anesti33
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[citation needed]
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
A Catholic uses the NIV? We need better citations than that.
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A Catholic uses the NIV? We need better citations than that.
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Anesti33
Guest
I see a very long thread where you work on an attack of one pillar of mortal sin. The logical conclusion of your proposal is that lacking all three conditions together, nobody has full knowledge of the gravity of sin and so nobody has ever, is ever, or will ever commit a mortal sin.
Is this an accurate portrayal of your position?
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OneSheep
Guest
Luke 23:34
CCC 1784 is a starting point.OneSheep:
[citation needed]
It’s just a matter of knowing human nature. I am not putting it forth as Gospel, only using it as a discussion point. People come to regret their sins when they see the light.OneSheep:
[citation needed]
Again, I refer to Luke 23:34OneSheep:
[citation needed]
Yes, there is nothing a human can do to make God not forgive us. His forgiveness comes forth from His Love. Forgiveness is a gift of mercy, and God’s mercy knows no limit.
yes, the conditions come from our side. Catholic theology holds that we choose hell. I maintain that even when we choose hell, though, we do not know what we are doing.
This commentary does not reflect the Church’s stance today. If nothing else, it does not give the Jewish people’s point of view in a charitable manner. The people who hung Christ did not know what they were doing, they were blind to both His divinity and humanity. Jesus forgave them.
Are we not all blind when we are seeing any person as disposable, of negative value, of not having a human dignity? This blindness is triggered when we see or hear something unconscionable.
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Anesti33
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If the condition comes from my side, then I am free to waive it. Dear God, I hereby say that I will accept Your forgiveness unconditionally! Thanks!
It is appalling that you would assert this, because it is something you cannot know without omniscience, involving as it does, billions of people, thousands of years, and the internal forum. I therefore have trouble taking anything you say seriously (more so) especially considering the paltry citations that do not support your assertions.
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Julius_Caesar
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It would seem the opposite is true.
The same people a few chapters earlier said He drove out demons by Satan’s power.
And you know of them more than me?
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Julius_Caesar
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Proof? Still have none I see.
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Rubee
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I’m not sure which video u refer to: mind linking it? I don’t find Bishop Barron’s belief to differ from mine at all. He does not deny the reality of sin and the true communication of grace/divine life/forgiveness via the sacraments. He just acknowledges that we have reason to hope beyond these means because God is free, able, and loving.
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christofirst
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I’ve been following along, and I’ve been heartened by the responses from @Rubee and @OneSheep . I appreciate the opposing views too, but my heart is with the universal salvation position. I’m not bold enough to declare it with certainty, but I do see much to support it, as has been brought up in this thread.
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OneSheep
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Look it up, friend. No specific person in history has ever been said to be in hell by the Church.OneSheep:
It is appalling that you would assert this
Really? Where is that?
So, he asks us to forgive everyone we hold something against, but does not himself forgive? Doesn’t that sound a little odd to you?OneSheep:
It would seem the opposite is true.
Again, all of this distracts from the point of the story. It doesn’t matter what happened to the cohort, that is not the point of the plot. Neither one of us can say what happened to him, and it doesn’t matter.OneSheep:
And you know of them more than me?
http://www.vatican.va/content/bened...f_ben-xvi_hom_20070325_visita-parrocchia.html
I already provided it, and you disagree.OneSheep:
Proof? Still have none I see.
You can follow the arrow in my quote up to the post.
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Julius_Caesar
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If they come to us and repent.
He doesn’t forgive her. He lets her go.
Thin air arguments don’t constitute proof.
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OneSheep
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Not according to Pope Benedict. Did you read my last post?
Call them what you wish.
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Julius_Caesar
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I’m assuming this is from Jesus of Nazareth. So he wasn’t acting in his capacity as Pope.
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Julius_Caesar
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I call it what it is.
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OneSheep
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No, it was from his homily as Pope, but even if he was still “just a cardinal” I hope you don’t really think that Catholic readers should value your opinion over his years of scholastic background.
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OneSheep
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It makes sense in terms of knowing that God wants all to be reconciled to Him.
The opposing views also speak to something inside of us. I can say to @Anesti33, @(name removed by moderator), and @Montrose and @Julius_Caesar that all of us have a part of ourselves that finds offensive the idea of unconditional love and forgiveness, so their points of view on the matter are not invalid, and need to be considered. Jesus did consider these parts of ourselves also, and his answer was the parables of the workers in the vineyard and the prodigal son.
That part of ourselves (the “inner judge”) prioritizes justice, and wants that no sin goes unpunished, well-being of the sinner be damned (npi). It is a normal natural manifestation of a well-formed conscience. But when we have a conscience formed, there is a step beyond, one where growth involves exploring and reflecting on the love and mercy that underlies all, including the conscience itself. Jesus asks us not to judge, but He does not tell the prodigal son’s brother or the workers in the vineyard who felt upset that they were wrong nor does he tell the people who wanted to carry out justice against the adulteress that they were wrong. What he was doing was orienting their desire for justice, putting it on a foundation of love and mercy so that we can recognize when there are conflicts, and what the priorities are when there is a conflict. All punishment is for the benefit of the sinner. When punishment is not merciful, or when desire for justice stands in the way of God’s mercy, mercy wins. (Even though, understandably, those who do not get to mete justice the way they want to get really grumpy about it!
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Julius_Caesar
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I like how you neglected to speak of the Talents.and Great Feast, and the Tenants.
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Anesti33
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OneSheep is not using sources in good faith, but prooftexting primary sources and then showing us some eisegesis to arrive at his point.
I would like to see sources on the level of CCC, Ludwig Ott, Catholic Encyclopedia, Denzinger, or Thomas Aquinas, that specifically support the proposition that God grants forgiveness without our repentance. And a few other propositions. But he can’t cite what doesn’t exist.
I would like to see sources on the level of CCC, Ludwig Ott, Catholic Encyclopedia, Denzinger, or Thomas Aquinas, that specifically support the proposition that God grants forgiveness without our repentance. And a few other propositions. But he can’t cite what doesn’t exist.
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Anesti33
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Speaking of Aquinas:
Summa Theologiae:
Summa Theologiae:
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christofirst
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I personally don’t find the idea of God’s unconditional love, mercy and forgiveness offensive at all, which is why universalism seems so possible and even probable to me. But then I see so much resistance to the idea from so many of my fellow Catholics whenever it comes up, and so I’m reluctant to push the idea too hard, and instead mostly just keep the hope to myself.
I understand people’s need for justice and fairness. This notion is also acknowledged in Scripture, alongside the many examples of God’s mercy and magnanimous love and forgiveness. But I believe that the attributes of love and mercy, rather than vengefulness, come closer to a truer understanding of God, mercy which by its very nature supersedes without denying justice.
When I sin, it seems to me that I’m not in my right mind, because if I truly understood the goodness of God it would be impossible for me to deny that goodness and to sin. That’s how I see it anyway, and that’s how I’m able to hope for the forgiveness of even the most hardened sinner.
How that will actually happen is beyond my understanding, but I like the way Dennis and Matthew Linn put it, “at the moment of death we would have to experience a whole eternity of God’s healing initiatives, because we cannot freely and definitively turn down what we have not experienced. Ultimately, our hope is not in the life we have lived, but rather in the healing initiatives of God who will spend eternity loving and healing us.”
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Montrose
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It is the Catholic Church established by Christ that condemned Universalism as a heresy. Catholics may NOT believe that everyone, including Satan and the other fallen angels ultimately WILL be saved. It is heresy and a mortal sin to believe that.
You may or may not understand it but you must be humble enough to be obedient to the Church. Everything the Church teaches in matters of faith and morals has the full authority of God behind it.
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