May Catholics Endorse Universalism?

[Julius_Caesar]

I think I am going to answer in the general way. God wills that all will be one, all reconciled to Him, for He loves all that He creates, and all He creates is good.

That’s His desire, His antecedent will. It’s not His active will.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And Jesus clearly said that many will not be strong enough to enter the narrow gate.

Do we believe @OneSheep or Jesus?

 

[Montrose]

Do we believe @OneSheep or Jesus?

We believe Jesus.

 

[OneSheep]

We believe Jesus.

Okay, here is something He said:

Matthew 19:
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

The Kingdom, the power and the glory are His. His mercy knows no limit. What Jesus refers to is a merciful possible.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Matthew 19:
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible

This is what He’s referencing. Don’t take Him out of context.

 

[stpurl]

I am afraid you had a glitch with your editing function or something because what you posted doesn’t make any sense. Would you like to try again?

 

[Anesti33]

Spoke to my confessor today and he agreed completely with my interpretation about requiring contrition as well as Jesus’ “Father, forgive them” petition from the Cross.

@InthePew I am curious about this point: A priest must withhold absolution if I demonstrate a complete lack of contrition, yes? If you attempted to absolve me anyway, would that be objectively invalid? Asking for a friend.

 

[InThePew]

A priest must withhold absolution if I demonstrate a complete lack of contrition, yes? If you attempted to absolve me anyway, would that be objectively invalid? Asking for a friend.

A “friend” huh? Anyway, yes it would be invalid - the absolution wouldn’t “take” so to speak. That said, contrition is a pretty low bar to get across (intentionally so).Even imperfect contrition is sufficient. My starting point is that everyone who comes to me for confession is contrite or else they wouldn’t be there! Of course that presumption may still be rebutted from talking to them but it’s unlikely. If they’re unsure I’m most likely going to err on the side of caution and given them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Latin]

God cannot force a person to accept a gift because we have free will.

God doesn’t force anyone, He aides our will.

THIS IS AS FOLLOWS THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON OUR SO CALLED FREE WILL

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

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GOD AIDES OUR FREE WILL AS FOLLOWS

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).
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Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.
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CCC 308 For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
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CCC 2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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As we see above, God is the CREATOR, CAUSER/ DETERMINER of our Aided Free will, and we all freely will what God wills us to will and we all freely do what God wills and CAUSES us to do.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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God bless

 

[o_mlly]

It does not take a rocket scientist to understand they WILL NEVER be released from Hell so there is no Universalism.

If one defines “universalism” as a time will come when all mankind shares in the grace of salvation then one may hold the belief or reject it.

On a rational argument, one who prays for that which one believes impossible suffers from cognitive dissonance.

 

[goout]

OneSheep:

You’ll (collectively) never put your arms all the way around it because the intersection of grace and free will is a bottomless mystery. It’s not the stuff of definitions, it’s essence is relationship. And that cannot be contained in definitions.

 

[Latin]

Our Catholic Church has the revealed fullness of the truth.

WE KNOW MANY IMPORTANT REVEALED TRUTH, FOR EXAMPLE:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of grace of Final Perseverance.
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A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP James akin

Aquinas said the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding in good to the end of life. In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…[A]fter anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance.” ST I-II:109:10.
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The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43]

1. Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13] which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]”

CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance. – Gives Infallible protection of the salvation of EVERY RECEIVER, there is no salvation without it. Infallible teachings of the Trent and formal teachings of the Catholic Church.
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
.
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.
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From the above teachings, we know with certainty, it is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US and to keep us saved, otherwise we all lost without exception.
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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God bless

 

[Annie]

As you can see, any individual Christian is going to have a slightly different experience and relationship with God in terms of God’s mercy and justice. For example, some people have never experienced unconditional forgiveness from a parent or spouse, and some people have never unconditionally forgiven an unrepentant person, preferring to hold onto grudges.

All of these things add into what the word “entrust” entails. In addition, if a person grows up in a belief system whereby unconditional forgiveness is wrong in some way, this will be problematic in terms of spiritual well-being. Holding grudges is misery.

I feel like you are saying here and other posts on this thread that those who do not believe as you do are somehow broken: you imply that they have never received unconditional forgiveness from someone, that they are deficient in forgiving others because they prefer to hold grudges, that they may even come from another “belief system in which unconditional forgiveness is wrong in some way.”

This just seems wrong somehow. You say you experienced something, so you believe in a certain thing which the Church teaches against, and then you suggest that those who do not agree with you are lacking in something inside themselves because they didn’t have your experience and believe what the Church teaches.

So we adhere to Church teaching but you are better (more loving, more forgiving) than we are so you don’t?

 

[Rubee]

When I sin, it seems to me that I’m not in my right mind, because if I truly understood the goodness of God it would be impossible for me to deny that goodness and to sin. That’s how I see it anyway, and that’s how I’m able to hope for the forgiveness of even the most hardened sinner.

How that will actually happen is beyond my understanding, but I like the way Dennis and Matthew Linn put it, “at the moment of death we would have to experience a whole eternity of God’s healing initiatives, because we cannot freely and definitively turn down what we have not experienced. Ultimately, our hope is not in the life we have lived, but rather in the healing initiatives of God who will spend eternity loving and healing us.”

I share your experience. Every time I’ve repented, it’s been a little like ‘waking up’ where I suddenly scratched my head, wondering how I went down that road. I’ve also been reading a lot of psychology lately from Jung and the older ones, and I find myself very convinced 99.99% of us are insane. The 0.01% who are not are the saints. They are the only sane humans, IMO. The rest of us are only relatively sane. That’s why the saints stand out. They look somewhat cooky and even crazy a lot of the times, but we are the cookie ones.

In addition to being in a kind of weird ‘pseudo-reality’/tunnel-vision/darkness when I’m comfortably sinning, I have also had the bitter experience of desperately desiring to experience faith and love of sacred persons again and feeling myself unmoved and unmovable, like a mountain. I couldn’t make myself go to mass or confession. Mortal sin couldn’t scare me into going even though I understood it intellectually then as I do now. I was already as well-educated in the faith as I am now. In fact, I’m only getting back to reading spiritual books again. Everything I know/knew is from my old fervent days before my faith broke.

It’s why I go hard when people seem not to appreciate how weak the human will is and assume it precedes grace instead of the other way around. I felt like I was being severely punished/rejected by God. It is IMPOSSIBLE to move to God even when you want to, if he does not send wind to your sails. I know this in my bones.

 

[OneSheep]

I feel like you are saying here and other posts on this thread that those who do not believe as you do are somehow broken

I think this is accurate except that you may be making it sound like I am alone in my beliefs about forgiveness and that I may even be accusing people of being broken without admitting my own brokenness. I apologize if I came across that way. We all have some brokenness that we carry, some burden. Can you see that conditional forgiveness in itself is a hindrance? If a person decides that they will not forgive unless the other repents, can you see that this could lead to a person going to their grave with a grudge?

This is not my position alone, Annie. I have been blessed with hearing the teachings of priests that coincide with my experience.

you imply that they have never received unconditional forgiveness from someone, that they are deficient in forgiving others because they prefer to hold grudges

Yes, some people do prefer to hang onto grudges, and sometimes it is because they have not experienced unconditional forgiveness, but this is not the only reason why someone might get stuck in their grudge. I hope that clarifies.

they may even come from another “belief system in which unconditional forgiveness is wrong in some way.”

Yes, that is demonstrated on this thread. Some people refuse to believe that Jesus forgave unrepentant people and will qualify His words in many ways in order to fit their belief that unconditional forgiveness is wrong. It’s not “another” belief system, though, like it is not Catholic in some way. The Church definitely gives room for both approaches. Understanding and forgiving people without condition is an invitation, an invitation that begins from the Cross. Our society sorely needs to accept this invitation.

This just seems wrong somehow.

I think that what you have said so far on the post explains my wrongness, and I hope that my clarification helps.

You say you experienced something, so you believe in a certain thing which the Church teaches against,

The Church does not teach that unconditional forgiveness is wrong. The teachings are complicated because we have both the image of a God who is omnibenevolent and unlimited in mercy, yet the impression is given that some people are not forgiven. This is a contradiction that is resolved by the theological teachings I have heard. Did you see the link to the Spiritualdirection.com website? It is in one of my posts above.

 

[OneSheep]

then you suggest that those who do not agree with you are lacking in something inside themselves because they didn’t have your experience and believe what the Church teaches.

In context, here is what I said:

All of these things add into what the word “entrust” entails. In addition, if a person grows up in a belief system whereby unconditional forgiveness is wrong in some way, this will be problematic in terms of spiritual well-being. Holding grudges is misery.

What I am saying is that we can understand where people come from without judging their experience of love. It is what it is. Yes, a person who does not know what it means to be loved and forgiven without condition is lacking something, but I have no desire to belittle that experience. We all have spiritual issues that we need to address, and I appreciate your pointing out some of my own shortfalls, even if they were unintended communications on my part.

Inside each one of us a part of ourselves that is willing and capable of forgiving everyone unconditionally, to love and forgive no matter what happens. It is most evident between a mother and child, but also (hopefully) occurs in the sacrament of marriage.

So we adhere to Church teaching

So, are you suggesting that forgiving people conditionally is a Church teaching, or are you referring to something else?

Have you heard of the book “Good Goats: Healing our Image of God” by the Linns?

 

[Annie]

So, are you suggesting that forgiving people conditionally is a Church teaching, or are you referring to something else?

My difficulty with what you have been writing is that you link a certain situation within a person with their belief, which coincides with Church teaching, that some human souls are in Hell.

From my reading, you imply that those who do not agree with you that Hell contains no human souls, which is contrary to Chirch teaching, are those who have never experienced unconditional forgiveness and tend to hold grudges.

This is problematic to me on a couple of levels. One is that one might have been unconditionally forgiven and work to forgive others and yet, by virtue of holding to Church teaching, are described in the opposite way by you.

Second, to those who are a little hazy on these things, there is a connection made between opposing your idea and being a bad or broken person.

To me, there just isn’t any conflict. Christ Himself spoke of this: “Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat;” and, " 41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels…"

Jesus says that “many” are in Hell. The Church teaches there are at least some in Hell.

When the Church says that we should pray that all might be saved, there is no implication that everyone will be saved, just that we should not leave anyone out. We should pray for each and every person to get into Heaven so that if they do not make it, it is not for lack of prayers.

Does this mean that someone who agrees that Hell is not empty of human souls has never experienced unconditional forgiveness? No. The two have nothing to do with each other.

God can forgive a person while that person refuses to repent and would throw away God’s forgiveness if he could.

People are not in Hell due to a lack of forgiveness from God but due to refusing that gift until the moment of their death.

A person can experience unconditional forgiveness and strive to forgive others and still see that some people are simply blinded.

 

[OneSheep]

My difficulty with what you have been writing is that you link a certain situation within a person with their belief, which coincides with Church teaching, that some human souls are in Hell.

I can see how you got that link, but it is indirect and not directly causative.

The Church does not insist that any souls are in an afterlife hell.

those who have never experienced unconditional forgiveness and tend to hold grudges.

Again, it is not directly causative. A person who does not forgive people unconditionally is more likely to have difficulty with an image of an unconditionally loving God. A person who has not experienced unconditional love from someone is more likely to have difficulty with an image of an unconditionally loving God. It’s not necessarily so, but it is more likely than someone with the unconditional experience. What I am saying is that people form God’s image from their own experiences as well as what they glean from teachings.

This is problematic to me on a couple of levels. One is that one might have been unconditionally forgiven and work to forgive others and yet, by virtue of holding to Church teaching, are described in the opposite way by you.

Yes, I see that as problematic also. I hope the above clarified that.

Second, to those who are a little hazy on these things, there is a connection made between opposing your idea and being a bad or broken person.

I already addressed “broken”. In terms of “bad person”, I don’t believe in such a thing. God has made all things good. We are all beautiful in the eyes of God.

I see that you are seeing this as “my idea”, as if I’m the only one who sees God and people this way? I have provided some sources to look at.

Jesus says that “many” are in Hell. The Church teaches there are at least some in Hell.

The priest who I most learned from on this topic said that Jesus was addressing the kind of hell that begins on Earth, today. In that sense, there are many in hell, for example drug addicts and people who hang onto hate.

The Linns address this also, but I do not have that book with me.

 

[OneSheep]

When the Church says that we should pray that all might be saved, there is no implication that everyone will be saved, just that we should not leave anyone out. We should pray for each and every person to get into Heaven so that if they do not make it, it is not for lack of prayers.

Is this God not being infinitely merciful unless I ask Him to be so? It’s not an image I share, and I don’t think you do either, based on what you say below. As the Linns write, “If something you read in scripture or doctrine that sounds like God loves you less than the person who loves you most, then something is amiss.”

Does this mean that someone who agrees that Hell is not empty of human souls has never experienced unconditional forgiveness? No. The two have nothing to do with each other.

I agree completely, except the two can have something to do with each other. But not necessarily so.

People are not in Hell due to a lack of forgiveness from God but due to refusing that gift until the moment of their death.

Correct, and the Church has never declared that there are definitely people there, at least not individually. Did you see the video by Bishop Barron?

Also, do you see, based on your statement, that God is there with open arms, and what we should pray for is that all people come to a place of accepting the gift by the time of death?

A person can experience unconditional forgiveness and strive to forgive others and still see that some people are simply blinded.

Yes, and when they do see that some people are “simply blinded” as was the crowd who hung Jesus, then that understanding can help in forgiveness of other people. We can call upon the gift of understanding to aid in forgiving others.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Abandon this futile conversation @Annie.

. . . .