May Catholics Endorse Universalism?

[Julius_Caesar]

and what we should pray for is that all people come to a place of accepting the gift by the time of death?

We already know that will not happen. The Gospels are clear.

 

[Annie]

The priest who I most learned from on this topic said that Jesus was addressing the kind of hell that begins on Earth, today. In that sense, there are many in hell, for example drug addicts and people who hang onto hate.

And I have heard priests say from the pulpit that Christ did not perform the miracle of multiplying the loaves and fishes, He performed the miracle of getting people to share what they had hidden under their coats.

And while I fully believe He could do that, dont get me wrong, I fully believe that He actually multiplied the loaves and fishes.

Just because one priest says something or even a bishop…

Did you see the video by Bishop Barron?

I have seen it on various occasions and disagree with him. And so I end up agreeing with thousands of bishops, popes, and even Christ Himself.

I can see how you got that link, but it is indirect and not directly causative.

You repeated the idea more than once in this thread for no good reason.

Would it be a valid argument against the idea of universal salvation if I said, hey, all the people I know who like the idea are notorious sinners and they don’t care because they think they are going the Heaven no matter what they do?

No. And what you wrote is also not a valid argument. So why dwell on it given the negatives?

I think that what you have said so far on the post explains my wrongness, and I hope that my clarification helps.

Your clarification does not help.

The Church does not teach that unconditional forgiveness is wrong. The teachings are complicated because we have both the image of a God who is omnibenevolent and unlimited in mercy, yet the impression is given that some people are not forgiven.

No, that is not the impression given.

God forgives people all the time. We may or may not accept that forgiveness. That is the issue.

Repentance is considered a turning towards God. He is standing there with open arms, waiting for us to turn to Him.

And for those who do not turn toward Him by the time of their death, when their spirit and body are separated and they are no longer capable of change, how can they enter Heaven? The unclean cannot enter Heaven.

What I am saying is that we can understand where people come from without judging their experience of love.

What you are saying is that you are sort of psychoanalyzing people who don’t agree with you and assuming that their brokenness is what is keeping them from agreeing with you rather than with the Church! That is what is really bizarre about what you are doing in this thread.

Continued below

 

[Annie]

Continued from above

So, are you suggesting that forgiving people conditionally is a Church teaching, or are you referring to something else?

No, I am flat-out stating that the Church teaches that some people do go to Hell.

Is this God not being infinitely merciful unless I ask Him to be so?

There is a huge body of literature on intercessory prayer, and one thing we know is that God in His omnipotence does not need our prayer. He is infinitely merciful as He has been eternally, and He is infinitely just.

As the Linns write, “If something you read in scripture or doctrine that sounds like God loves you less than the person who loves you most, then something is amiss.

I do not think I have written anything here which would lead you to believe that I think that.

I agree completely, except the two can have something to do with each other. But not necessarily so.

Then please don’t write as if they do.

the Church has never declared that there are definitely people there, at least not individually

The fact that the Church, which has the power of binding and loosing, and which does not have the power of judging, has never declared any particular individual to be in Hell in no way proves or even possibly indicates that no human souls are in Hell.

Also, do you see, based on your statement, that God is there with open arms,

I do believe that. I just happen also to believe that the omniscient Christ Who told us that “many” take the wide road was correct and that therefore there are people who turn away from God even at that moment.

what we should pray for is that all people come to a place of accepting the gift by the time of death?

First, why bother, if universal salvation is true?

And second, you do know the Church has long taught us to pray for those who are dying, right? We even ask Mary to pray for us “now *and at the hour of our death,” don’t we? Why do you think we pray those prayers?

Yes, and when they do see that some people are “simply blinded” as was the crowd who hung Jesus, then that understanding can help in forgiveness of other people. We can call upon the gift of understanding to aid in forgiving others.

Of course, but how does this relate to the subject at hand?

 

[OneSheep]

And while I fully believe He could do that, dont get me wrong, I fully believe that He actually multiplied the loaves and fishes.

Either interpretation is acceptable among the faithful.

Just because one priest says something or even a bishop…

Bishop Barron is definitely not outside of the mainstream on his teachings. The video is solid Catholic theology, but there are some different approaches. Here is a “bottom line”: we are invited to forgive as Jesus forgave from the cross, to understand and forgive as He forgave.

I have seen it on various occasions and disagree with him. And so I end up agreeing with thousands of bishops, popes, and even Christ Himself.

The Gospel has room for both views, but again, Jesus invites us to forgive everyone we hold something against. It’s an invitation “as we stand praying” to forgive everyone unconditionally. Mark 11:25

You repeated the idea more than once in this thread for no good reason.

You are thinking that I should not repeat myself.

Would it be a valid argument against the idea of universal salvation if I said, hey, all the people I know who like the idea are notorious sinners and they don’t care because they think they are going the Heaven no matter what they do?

That would go against what you said earlier and I agreed with, that acceptance of the gift involves repentance. Sin causes harm; a person who has this attitude does not see God in himself or others, he does not know God. He is very unaware.

No. And what you wrote is also not a valid argument.

I don’t see the comparison. I am not stating universals, I am giving reasons why some people reject the idea of a God who forgives unconditionally.

God forgives people all the time. We may or may not accept that forgiveness. That is the issue.

Yes, I agree! But also, there are many who believe that God does not forgive people always.

The unclean cannot enter Heaven.

Can you expand on this?

What you are saying is that you are sort of psychoanalyzing people

I’m glad you said “sort of”! What I said was nothing like psychoanalysis. We can understand, as Jesus did, from where people are coming. I gave some examples. Do you not see that some of my examples are possible?

 

[OneSheep]

No, I am flat-out stating that the Church teaches that some people do go to Hell.

Okay, bring forth that teaching, and we can discuss it.

I do not think I have written anything here which would lead you to believe that I think that.

I’m confused. That you think what?

Then please don’t write as if they do.

Okay, let’s make a deal. I’ll do my best to write more clearly, and you read what I have to say in a way that gives me the benefit of the doubt. Whaddya say? Deal?

First, why bother, if universal salvation is true?

Did you get the impression somewhere that I believe all people go to heaven? That would be a misread. I only see it as a possibility, but a strong one at that.

And second, you do know the Church has long taught us to pray for those who are dying right? We even ask Mary to pray for us “now *and at the hour of our death,” don’t we? Why do you think we pray those prayers?

If nothing else, those prayer comfort us, for we know that God will answer those prayers.

OneSheep:

Yes, and when they do see that some people are “simply blinded” as was the crowd who hung Jesus, then that understanding can help in forgiveness of other people. We can call upon the gift of understanding to aid in forgiving others.

Of course, but how does this relate to the subject at hand?

Ah, I think I am starting to get it. It is possible that you think I am supporting the idea that hell is absolutely, unquestionably empty, but that is not the case. What happened is that posters disagreed with me about the very thing that we agree on, that God forgives everyone. Perhaps if you review the thread a little more, you can see how we made this diversion.

Have you read Hans von Balthasar’s book?

 

[Latin]

We already know that will not happen. The Gospels are clear.

The Bible is like a coded message enigma, we can prove anything with the Bible we like, from a few people saved to everyone saved.

It is not enough to know what is written in the Bible, we must know the reason for the various writings.
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In the Book of Jonah God provided us His key to understand His enigma/ coded message.
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Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.

For the reason to pay attention God promised distraction and hell to all Ninevites.
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Despite of all threats and promises of distractions and hell, God provided His Universal Salvation and saved all Ninevites:

Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and also many animals?
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God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and God provided Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.
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Please also consider:
When we reading the Scripture, we see in parallel there are two lines of teachings.

One line is only a few people saved, the other line is God’s Universal Salvific Will and God saves everyone (Rom.5:18; Eph.1:10-11; Col.1:20; etc.).

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).

It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).

It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each(St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii).

All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs.

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nation.

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

CCC 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” ( 1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt. 19:26).
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Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.

On a rational argument, one who prays for that which one believes impossible suffers from cognitive dissonance.

I believe @o_mlly you are perfectly correct.
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God bless

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Despite of all threats and promises of distractions and hell, God provided His Universal Salvation and saved all Ninevites:

Physical and eternal salvation are two different things.

And from Matthew 8 we know that many people will not be saved eternally.

Paul says the same thing

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
Romans 2:6‭-‬10 RSV-CI

If God decides to forgive and save everyone without any effort on their part, you make Him into a puppet master and a partial God.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

It appears @LatinRight hasn’t read all of Thomas Aquinas.

Thirdly, according to Damascene (De Fide Orth. ii, 29), they are understood of the antecedent will of God; not of the consequent will. This distinction must not be taken as applying to the divine will itself, in which there is nothing antecedent nor consequent, but to the things willed. To understand this we must consider that everything, in so far as it is good, is willed by God. A thing taken in its primary sense, and absolutely considered, may be good or evil, and yet when some additional circumstances are taken into account, by a consequent consideration may be changed into the contrary. Thus that a man should live is good; and that a man should be killed is evil, absolutely considered. But if in a particular case we add that a man is a murderer or dangerous to society, to kill him is a good; that he live is an evil. Hence it may be said of a just judge, that antecedently he wills all men to live; but consequently wills the murderer to be hanged. In the same way God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned, as His justice exacts.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

So no unconditional forgiveness otherwise all men would go to heaven.

 

[Latin]

God’s love and justice demands to take all men to heaven and you @Julius_Caesar can be sure, all men will be in heaven, because our repentances are His gift of graces.

God bless

 

[Latin]

If God decides to forgive and save everyone without any effort on their part, you make Him into a puppet master and a partial God.

The Father William Most Collection

St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
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Ibid. 6. 15: “If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts.”
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: “What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts.”
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.
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God bless

 

[Julius_Caesar]

all men will be in heaven, because our repentances are His gift of graces.

“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Matthew 7:13‭-‬14 RSV-CI

So we should believe you over Jesus.

 

[Latin]

WE MUST BELIEVE THE WAY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES JESUS
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GOD’S WARNINGS TO PAY ATTENTION

Mathew 7:13-14 given us for warning to pay attention, corresponds with Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.

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GOD’S DESIGNED AND FOREORDAINED PLAN FOR THE FULLNESS OF TIME

Eph.1:10-11 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will. – Not according to our whims.
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Col.1:20 And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains the foreordained Plan of God which cannot be frustrated .

This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).

It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).

It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).

All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nation.

God acts through secondary causes, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him ; efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

I believe in the God of the Divine Providence and Jesus the saviour of the world (not a few elect) described above.

God bless

 

[Rubee]

First, why bother, if universal salvation is true?

I don’t understand this, unless I’m misunderstanding Onesheep. Hoping for a factual outcome (that everyone/almost all will be saved) is not the same as saying that people will be saved against their free will. From my perspective, the first makes you pray even more fervently, not see it as a waste of time. It’d be a waste of time only if one believed salvation will come regardless of one’s actions/choices, i.e., imposed by force.

From my perspective, God living outside time can apply grace from prayers made anytime/place, all the masses ever given, to all sinners since Adam to the last human there ever will be. I don’t see what is problematic about believing that even the worst soul can be saved before death. In fact, the Bible says God wants all to be saved, so it is church teaching that the possibility is real, contrary to what’s being asserted here. The church has not taught that anyone is in hell, only that it’s the fate of those who die in mortal sin, which none of you guys know about dead souls since the church, in all her wisdom, says such a judgment isn’t to be done.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

WE MUST BELIEVE THE WAY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES JESUS

And not what you cherry pick.

 

[Annie]

I don’t understand this, unless I’m misunderstanding Onesheep.

No, actually it was I who had misunderstood OneSheep and thought he was arguing for universal salvation

@OneSheep

 

[Annie]

@OneSheep @Rubee @ everyone else

Maybe what is being argued is how easy or difficult it is to attain Heaven?

 

[OneSheep]

Maybe what is being argued is how easy or difficult it is to attain Heaven?

This is definitely one aspect of the discussion Annie. Where I see our agreement in theology is that God forgives everyone. I do see that there is perhaps a difference in our Anthropologies. It is my observation that, as Plato also found (and Augustine, to some degree), people always do what they think is best. Given that, when a person is fully aware of their choices (and I mean completely aware, with no blindness) they will choose God. It is our nature to do so.

Feel free to completely disagree!

Note: While my agreement with Bishop Barron is “mainstream”, this observation I am posting is definitely not!

 

[Annie]

I do see that there is perhaps a difference in our Anthropologies

What do you mean by anthropologies?

 

[Vico]

Julius_Caesar:

The Gospel reading has God kick out a person because he didn’t wear a wedding garment. Yes, God has conditions.

If a person is in a state of non-acceptance of grace, then they will not be part of the celebration, the banquet, the eternal life that begins today. It is the person doing the rejecting, but it appears that God is rejecting.

God doesn’t reject people, but it will seem that way to the person who has closed himself off.

And then, no one knows what they are doing when they close themselves off. (Luke 23:34)

A person can reject God (“close themselves off” to grace) fully aware that it contrary to the teachings of faith and morals, so there is knowledge of “what they are doing”.